Here's a question regarding an instruction I just found in the Prindle 18-2/19 Owner's Manual regarding how to get your bows pointed into the wind if you're capsized. I'd like to know if anyone has any comment. (Btw, I think this is relevant to all cats, not just P18/19s.)
Page 30 has a short section on righting a capsized boat that says:
"If the mast is pointed into the wind, the boat may flip over in the other direction as you try to right it. To swing the bows around into the wind, walk back towards the transom slowly until bows are positioned properly."
Notice it doesn't say stand on the bow. It says walk back to the transom and wait for the bows to swing around into the wind. I never noticed this before and don't get why this would cause the bows to swing into the wind.
I always understood that if the bows are not pointing into the wind, you should stand on the bow, not the stern, and presumably that would sink the bow somewhat, causing the lightened aft end of the boat to drift downwind so the bows end up pointed into the wind. But this owners' manual says the opposite, so maybe I'm missing something??
The back story is that a couple of years ago I capsized my boat (P18-2) while solo-sailing and initially couldn't get it righted because (to the best of my recollection) the mast was pointed towards the wind. I tried pulling the mast up, but couldn't do it because the wind kept blowing the mainsail down. So I stood on the bow and waited. Long story short, my weight there (I weigh around 185 and definitely more with gear on) did exactly DIDLY SQUAT to bring the bows into the wind, even though I stood there for a good while, and even though there was a decent breeze blowing (not strong admittedly, but a reasonable breeze). The P18-2 has a large amount of volume in the bows, and my weight there seemed to do nothing to appreciably sink it or bring the bows around. (Important aside: is the proper spelling didly squat, diddly squat, didley squat, didely squat, dideley squat, didelly squat, didelley squat, diddelley squat, or??? Inquiring minds want to know, maybe we can take a poll. Kindly leave your vote in the comments - btw, this could be more important than righting a boat.)
I ended up getting out of that situation through the help of a good samaritan motor-boater (before I drifted further towards a jetty). But the point is, I just noticed the above statement in the Owners' Manual and I don't get why standing by the stern would cause the bows to swing into the wind. Does anyone think this makes sense or have any comment?
Thanks.
Edit: Not sure how i managed to get this posted in the "Tampa Bay Waters" sub-forum of all places (not that that's a bad place!), but maybe Damon/mod/forum-owner can get it into the "General Sailing" forum(?).
Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 25, 2023 - 05:53 PM.
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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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Righting Question
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Posted: Apr 25, 2023 - 03:12 PM
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Posted: Apr 25, 2023 - 03:54 PM
"Diddly Squat" gets my vote.
I agree that walking back towards the stern seems counter-intuitive and would tend to drive your bows downwind instead. I haven't successfully righted my H16 on my own yet (motor boater assist the one time I turtled). So, admittedly, I don't have first-hand experience but the theory seems sound that the bows become the pivot point and should come around to pointing upwind with weight on them.
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Tim Gibson
1982 Hobie 16 Carumba Sails
1980 Hobie 14 Cat Fever Sails (SOLD)
Memphis, TN
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Posted: Apr 25, 2023 - 04:05 PM
I know after capsizing a Hobie Wave, I stood on the bow and would even lean a bit forward rather than straight out. I have always been able to right the boat pretty easily.
On my Tiapan, my 150# weight didn't seem to affect the disposition of the boat at all when capsized.
I haven't capsized my Topcat yet... It's bigger than the Wave but smaller than the Taipan... Time will tell. -
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Posted: Apr 25, 2023 - 05:17 PM
Okay, thanks for the initial replies. Glad to hear I'm not the only one perplexed by this one, or the only one who found that his weight placed on a particular part of a certain boat didn't appear to do DICKIE'S DONK for the cause. (Or is it dicky's donk?, or dickey donk? - damn, could be time for another poll....)
PS, looks like "diddly squat" has come out of the gate strong and taken the early lead, thanks to dirtybanana.
Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 25, 2023 - 06:41 PM.
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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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Posted: Apr 25, 2023 - 05:19 PM
Those instructions in the 18-2 manual were copied from the 16/18 manual and do not apply to your Two, really.
When you capsize from a strong gust the mast is rarely pointed toward the wind, because it's the wind that blew you over.
If you pitchpole from a control issue, i.e. steering, weight distribution, wave riding, etc., then your mast could end up pointed anywhere, even turtle.
The first thing to do is release the mainsheet and jib sheet, then lift the mast just out of the water. The loose sails will hang down, the wind will catch in them from either direction and push the mast around. Moving your bodies while holding the righting line will help a little but you want to be centered around the front crossbar area.
I brought this up early on but it was never changed.
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Bob
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Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
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Posted: Apr 26, 2023 - 11:26 AM
I had never bought into the idea of getting the bows into the wind. It took too long to do that. We would go out in 20+ knot winds and see how far we can drive the bows into the mud (lake is only 4-6' deep). We had a lot of capsize practice. We always had the mast to wind to keep it out of the mud. When the boat started to right, we would walk forward slightly and stand up on the leeward hull as the boat came upright. This was 30 years ago and we were much more nimble than now. But, as mentioned by Bob above, make sure all sheets and traveler are completely loose. Keeping traveler loose also is the key to keeping it from flopping over on ya. If you cannot stay on the hull while it rights, hang on to the low hull as it rights. The boat will have a very hard time going back over with one or two people on the low hull (especially if everything is loose). If you choose to rotate the bows towards the wind, putting weight on the bows will left the sterns and allow the boat to settle. The wind and waves will determine how successful this will be. I've seen people fight with this for 30 minutes instead of just righting the boat. This is one reason we are hosting a capsize clinic.
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Scott
Prindle Fleet 2
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Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
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Posted: Apr 26, 2023 - 01:18 PM
Interesting. Sounds like maybe you worked for the company back when this manual was created and you suggested this instruction be removed?
Anyway, I'm not trying to make a big deal about the manual - just trying to see if there's a reason someone would "walk towards the transom until the bows are positioned [into the wind]," and so far, nobody seems to see one, no matter what size catamaran.
Thanks for the other comments about righting. I think I had an occasion (maybe it was the one mentioned above) where I capsized and ended up with my bows pointed away from the wind, which meant my mast (lying down in the water) was basically perpendicular to the direction of the wind. The back end of the sail (leech), although down in the water, was pointed towards the wind. In that orientation, as I started pulling the mast up, the mainsail obviously started coming with it, and the wind began hitting the mainsail and flowing across it in a backwards direction to the normal flow. That really effectively just drove the mainsail and mast back down into the water. Since the leech of the sail was still trailing down in the water, the further the mast/mainsail came out of the water, the more main surface area was exposed to the wind, and the stronger the wind force was driving them back down, sort of pinning them there. There was no way to get the boat righted in that orientation.
Which is how I got on this topic of how to get the bows reoriented. If anybody has any suggestions for getting your boat reoriented from that position, I'd be interested to hear them.
Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 26, 2023 - 02:27 PM.
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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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Posted: Apr 26, 2023 - 03:37 PM
I was Commodore of the local Prindle Fleet and bought an 18-2 early on. Got to know a few names in the company is all. Good people, they just weren't interested in reprinting the manual.
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Bob
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Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
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Posted: Apr 26, 2023 - 06:09 PM
Been there before. I dropped my legs in the water to use my body as a drogue and the cat's attitude was unaffected. I have since made a real drogue to clip to the bridle for the next time.
Thou shall not drift anymore!
However, now I have wings...and the boat will not act as it once did. More likely the slowed drift will cause the mast and skipping sail to sink to the muddy depths. Alas.
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FYC, Nacra 5.2 "Chris's Flyer" & Nacra Playcat & Farrier Tramp
Previously owned: Trac 14, H14, H16, H18, N5.0, G-cat 5.0
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Posted: Apr 26, 2023 - 06:20 PM
Bow standing worked well for me on my mystere - can't recall on my hobie18 but i think it worked for me then too
Very good idea
For me the failproof answer was to carry an anchor and deploy it first chance possible after a capsize. it will 100% get your bows into the wind every time (unless the wind is so strong that you are moving so fast your anchor is floating or dragging - that is very rare and a chain on the anchor line will eliminate almost all chances of that -
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Posted: Apr 27, 2023 - 09:15 AM
Good point re the traveler(!) - I usually just think about loosening the main and jib sheets. Will remember the traveler next time as well.
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1998 P18.2
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Posted: Apr 27, 2023 - 09:33 AM
And make sure the tiller extension is out of the way. I can't count the number of times I had the mainsheet and traveller loose but the extension interfered with them letting out. -
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Posted: Apr 27, 2023 - 10:55 AM
YES, THIS!!! This is what I think I want at this point. An almost fail-proof way to stop drifting and get the bows into the wind every time, with an anchor. No more drifting helplessly towards jetties, piers, or some other potential disaster while your boat is spun the wrong way and won't come up. Plus I'm thinking even if the anchor is dragging, in most cases that should still be great to slow you down and get the bows pointed into the wind/current, right?
I was just in West Marine last week looking over the anchor choices and trying to assess what would be the smallest and easiest stowable/deployable anchor for the job. Do you have any suggestions on what you found was best for this, MN3? Including what diameter/length line you were using? And how you were stowing them for good neat storage but also easy deployment when capsized??
I'm thinking of getting one of these "folding grapnel" anchors, since they are light and fold down to a slim size, but the arms unfold to catch or drag on the bottom. Shown here https://www.westmarine.co…rs-P005_153_003_004.html
I'm thinking maybe a 5 pounder would be enough?, since I'm only trying to slow down or stop a light catamaran and most of the bay where I sail is 20' deep or less (although a few places to 65')??
PS: On top of that, I think I'm gonna make a righting pole to get some super leverage for righting while single-handed. This looks like the best one I've come across: https://www.youtube.com/w…TRS5pTZGV4&feature=g-upl
Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 27, 2023 - 12:42 PM.
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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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Posted: Apr 27, 2023 - 11:08 AM
I know MN3 sails with an anchor but I hesitate because of the added weight and potential boat damage. Drogues are cheap, foldable, and stow in a tramp pocket. You only need 6ft of line and works in any depth of water. I made a 30" one out of an old 420 mainsail.
https://www.amazon.com/An…shing/dp/B09BD8KYP4?th=1
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FYC, Nacra 5.2 "Chris's Flyer" & Nacra Playcat & Farrier Tramp
Previously owned: Trac 14, H14, H16, H18, N5.0, G-cat 5.0
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Posted: Apr 27, 2023 - 12:14 PM
I'm glad you brought this to my attention and I like those advantages you listed: light, easy to stow, work in any depth, only need 6ft of line (in comparison to a lot longer line for anchor). I am worried with anchors about the weight, possibility for damage, storage question, etc., especially because I tend to push it and get capsizes where stuff gets thrown around.
Thanks for the link to that Amazon one, looks like a cheap and easy way to test one out. Maybe I'll go for this first and see how it works for me. How to you hook it to the front of your boat? [Edit: Nevermind, you said you clip it to your bridle.]
Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 27, 2023 - 05:29 PM.
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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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Posted: Apr 27, 2023 - 12:17 PM
Okay, another good point, I'll keep that one in mind now too, thanks.
Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 27, 2023 - 01:29 PM.
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1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
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Posted: Apr 27, 2023 - 07:10 PM
If you're sailing an 18ft cat and unless you're a very heavy person, odds are you won't right it alone without a water bag or one of those poles that folds under the tramp. At 150, I can't right a 16 by myself and in all my years of sailing, I've never capsized by myself. Of course, I'm more conservative when alone, and I always carry a righting line. But I know my time's coming and hopefully someone will help like I have helped several times. I've capsized plenty of times when double handed, and righting has always been easy even on a 20-footer. If I remember correctly, the boat always seemed to swing around on its own, the sail acting as a drogue pointing towards the wind as it lays in the water. About anchors, I sometimes use one as a temporary mooring with a bleach bottle to mark where it is. The beach where I launch is rocky and there's no way my hulls are going on the beach. It's a four-pound anchor with no chain and I have to reach down and push the flukes in. Once it's in nothings pulling it out, it'll break first. But sometimes I take it with me and yes, storage can be a problem but what seems to work okay is having it in a small bag pushed up against the main beam right at the mast step. What I also did was cut an inch off of each end of the stock to make it fit in the bag easier. Now that makes it a little harder for it to set on its own, but it was worth it. I've never had a flailing jib sheet catch on it. Cats tend to sail around on anchor and a bridle helps. Unfortunately, the only place to tie the bridle are the bow tangs but they should never be that loaded anyway on anchor and shouldn't be a problem. And one other thing, if you use too much rode, your boat will sail around on anchor more.
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Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
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Posted: Apr 27, 2023 - 07:18 PM
not sure i agree - lots of boats will just sail away with the tramp as the sail -
just drill a few holes in your bow tips - refill with some epoxy and then redrill a little smaller - now you have holes for your bridal that wont seep water into your bows/glass
not ben my experience with a bridal. more wind and waves require more rode
Edited by MN3 on Apr 27, 2023 - 07:30 PM. -
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Posted: Apr 27, 2023 - 07:31 PM
FORTRESS MODE FX-7. only 4lbs - will hold A LOT of boat
https://fortressanchors.c…chors/#fortressselection
Didn't slow down my cat when my anchor line was tripped by another cat on anchor that flipped (we had a front come through overnight while island camping). We had to use a power boat and go dead-down-wind where my boat was moving pretty quickly in reverse
I have not had great success in our grassy/sandy/mucky bottoms with those. I was also told they can pop out of the water with enough (wind) force but never saw anything remotely like it ... but who knows
Bill has it correct "storage can be a problem but what seems to work okay is having it in a small bag pushed up against the main beam right at the mast step." - I used to have a small duffle type bag tied to the front beam/hiking strap area on my hobies. All my mystere fleet guys woud just stuff their steel walmart danforth anchors into the front tramp pocket - this isn't ideal in my world as it would rip up the pocket eventually and is why a bag is better in my mind -
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Posted: Apr 28, 2023 - 11:46 AM
They also make a Magnesium/alum one Fortress Guardian G-7 2.9lb Anchor. They break down pretty easy too but more things to go wrong.
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Lee Lake George FL
Hobie 16 -Boomer Sails
Matrix 5.5
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