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Righting Question

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MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: May 03, 2023 - 06:51 PM

QuoteIn fact, having an anchor zipped in a bag strapped down on top of the tramp behind the mast is presumably gonna involve some real maneuvering around to get it unstrapped, unzipped and deployed.

that bag was very easy to use. All i did was secure 1 of the 2 straps to the beam/hiking strap (If i recall i used the shackle that the hiking strap was attached to). not zipped shut. anchor was probably just tied to the mast base back then and i had no idea originally to use it in a capsize.

all the anchor line was either in the bag, or probably in the tramp pocket (this was back in the late 90's). it was easy to get to at anytime while the mast was pointing up. easy if i capsized on the side the bag was on and a bit of a stretch (while standing on the hull) post flip if on the dry side.

If i were you .... I would just find some cheap bag with loops (handles), maybe steal one of your wifes/daughters LV or other bag and try it. as per the 4lbs anchor - the alum anchor i showed was 4lbs - it is alum and light, a cheapo walmart steel one will be double the weight but work just as well (for 1/10th the cost)

the bag i used was a cheap carry on flight bag that came with my cheap 3 piece travel kit. the zipper rusted and was not usable after a few sails. That bag lasted about 5 years.

similar to this but smaller (and dark blue)

https://www.amazon.com/Tr…psc=1&smid=AZKSNKE36GZA9

this one would work very well and since it is used, it is "discounted"

https://www.luxedh.com/pr…pxysy4Y5ZNRoCEEYQAvD_BwE

Edited by MN3 on May 03, 2023 - 06:52 PM.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: May 03, 2023 - 07:03 PM

QuoteThat looks like a really purpose built setup with a good amount of thought put into it, my compliments.

more like trial and lots of error, dumb luck and most of all - a wealth of knowledge that i stole from others whom knew much much much much ...... more than I.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: May 03, 2023 - 07:05 PM

QuoteThanks for posting the link to the picture of your bowfoil. Now I understand what that is.

IIRC: Nacra 5.8's NA (north america) had oversized jibs and required a bow foil to be added to spread out the load - otherwise the hulls were pulled inward too much
danielt1263

Rank: Mate

Registered: May 21, 2013

Last visit: Nov 20, 2024

Posts: 110
Posted: May 03, 2023 - 08:23 PM

When I was shopping, I was trying to find a boat that didn't have the bow-foil (Topcat calls it a power-spreader.) Mine doesn't have the inverted dolphin striker on it. Instead I have a line that goes from the bridle to an eye on the middle of the spreader to keep it from bending down.
Andinista

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Registered: Aug 18, 2003

Last visit: Dec 13, 2023

Posts: 880
Posted: May 04, 2023 - 01:33 AM

CatFan57
AndinistaI sail on the sea and the surf is dangerous everywhere but at the launching spot, so there’s plenty of “opportunity” to use the anchor. I’m not concerned about the stress on the boat if I attach it to the forestay bridles (or bowfoil in my case), ....
I think the key is to have the line properly stored in a (mesh) bag and easily accessible on the tramp, pre-set as much as possible. ... I sail solo very often and have a righting pole, but things may get complicated anyway, I’ve sailed for a few decades and I’ve had many incidents, so I don’t take anything for granted, neither the anchor, its just my seat belt.

Thanks for posting the link to the picture of your bowfoil. Now I understand what that is. Agreed that ideally you have everything pre-set and easily accessible. I'm sailing solo mostly, which obviously can present a righting problem with an 18' boat, so that's why I got this thread going. Since you sail regularly in the ocean and often by yourself, you obviously must have a lot of experience getting/being prepared. And getting carried into the surf doesn't sound too appealing - although potentially getting carried out to sea when dismasted or with broken rudders sounds worse.

You’re welcome!
Solo righting an 18ft cat is not easy. If you don’t capsize often, which isn’t a bad thing, you don’t get to practice much, so before you are able to master the technique and right your boat a reasonable % of the times, you will have to wait for a powerboat or to reach land. After the second failed attempt I decided to make myself a righting pole, which I successfully tested on light wind. That kept me from mastering the technique without it but I’m okay with that. I feel I might but haven’t really tried afterwards. If you decide to go that way, don’t make it too short, there are many videos suggesting boat width but I’d suggest to start with a longer one (I weight 85 kg, that’s a factor to consider). Something I forget too often is to release the downhaul, it seems a minor detail but it makes righting harder and favors that the boat starts sailing right after righting, which means it’s harder to get back onboard.

Edited by Andinista on May 04, 2023 - 08:27 AM.
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

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Posts: 7089
Posted: May 04, 2023 - 08:57 AM

QuoteMine doesn't have the inverted dolphin striker

aka pelican striker
CatFan57

Rank: Mate

Registered: Mar 16, 2018

Last visit: May 10, 2023

Posts: 126
Posted: May 04, 2023 - 09:03 AM

MN3
QuoteIn fact, having an anchor zipped in a bag strapped down on top of the tramp behind the mast is presumably gonna involve some real maneuvering around to get it unstrapped, unzipped and deployed.

that bag was very easy to use. All i did was secure 1 of the 2 straps to the beam/hiking strap (If i recall i used the shackle that the hiking strap was attached to). not zipped shut. anchor was probably just tied to the mast base back then and i had no idea originally to use it in a capsize.

all the anchor line was either in the bag, or probably in the tramp pocket (this was back in the late 90's). it was easy to get to at anytime while the mast was pointing up. easy if i capsized on the side the bag was on and a bit of a stretch (while standing on the hull) post flip if on the dry side.

If i were you .... I would just find some cheap bag with loops (handles), maybe steal one of your wifes/daughters LV or other bag and try it. as per the 4lbs anchor - the alum anchor i showed was 4lbs - it is alum and light, a cheapo walmart steel one will be double the weight but work just as well (for 1/10th the cost)

the bag i used was a cheap carry on flight bag that came with my cheap 3 piece travel kit. the zipper rusted and was not usable after a few sails. That bag lasted about 5 years.

similar to this but smaller (and dark blue)

https://www.amazon.com/Tr…psc=1&smid=AZKSNKE36GZA9

this one would work very well and since it is used, it is "discounted"

https://www.luxedh.com/pr…pxysy4Y5ZNRoCEEYQAvD_BwEEdited by MN3 on May 03, 2023 - 06:52 PM.

Okay, I was meaning to say getting access to an anchor and line strapped in a bag on top of the tramp behind the mast would seem to require some maneuvering when the boat is capsized and you're standing on a hull. Not impossible, but some maneuvering when the boat is capsized and the top of the tramp is faced away from you while you are standing on the hull. Yes, I see it would be no problem when the mast is facing up.

Thanks for the tips on the bags. I like the 1st one ($22) but clicked on the link for the second one and saw it's a Louis Vuitton designer bag for $1,500!!, LOL, good sense of humor. For sure that would be my wife's choice if i could afford it. ... Could afford a wife I mean.

Edited by CatFan57 on May 04, 2023 - 10:08 AM.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
danielt1263

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Posts: 110
Posted: May 04, 2023 - 09:09 AM

The problem with putting a bag on top of the tramp behind the mast is that it's in the way of the jib and spinnaker sheet blocks on my boat. I have my righting line around the base of the mast and then threaded into the trampoline lacing on the underside of the tramp.

That way it will be easy to get to and not in the way on top of the tramp. Although, once I capsize, I suspect it will be a huge PITA to re-store it.
CatFan57

Rank: Mate

Registered: Mar 16, 2018

Last visit: May 10, 2023

Posts: 126
Posted: May 04, 2023 - 09:23 AM

MN3
QuoteThat looks like a really purpose built setup with a good amount of thought put into it, my compliments.

more like trial and lots of error, dumb luck and most of all - a wealth of knowledge that i stole from others whom knew much much much much ...... more than I.

That's why I'm on here - trying to cut down the trial and error and steal some of that wealth of knowledge for myself. Including why pirates drank rum. "Fifteen men on the Dead Man's Chest - Yo ho, ho and a bottle of rum!" I found out "Dead Man's Chest" originally was/came from the name of an island in the British Virgin Islands.

Edited by CatFan57 on May 04, 2023 - 10:45 AM.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
CatFan57

Rank: Mate

Registered: Mar 16, 2018

Last visit: May 10, 2023

Posts: 126
Posted: May 04, 2023 - 09:58 AM

AndinistaSolo righting an 18ft cat is not easy. After the second failed attempt I decided to make myself a righting pole, which I successfully tested on light wind. If you decide to go that way, don’t make it too short, there are many videos suggesting boat width but I’d suggest to start with a longer one (I weight 85 kg, that’s a factor to consider).

I'm wondering what one you use. As of now, I'm intending to build/carry the one shown in this video, which has the length of the boat width. This seems like the best one I've found, and it seems like that length should be enough, given that you put your weight all the way out on the end. Downside (which doesn't seem so bad at all) is I'd have to carry it across my hulls in front of my front cross beam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTRS5pTZGV4

This is the page showing how to construct it, if anyone is interested: https://get.google.com/al…6-QFAgGl?feat=directlink

Edited by CatFan57 on May 04, 2023 - 11:10 AM.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: May 04, 2023 - 01:45 PM

Quote Including why pirates drank rum.

Rum was abundant on islands that grew sugar cane.
MN3

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Registered: Jun 20, 2006

Last visit: May 22, 2024

Posts: 7089
Posted: May 04, 2023 - 01:47 PM

QuoteOkay, I was meaning to say getting access to an anchor and line strapped in a bag on top of the tramp behind the mast would seem to require some maneuvering when the boat is capsized and you're standing on a hull.

Requires you to stand on a hiking strap
MN3

Rank: Master Chief

Registered: Jun 20, 2006

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Posts: 7089
Posted: May 04, 2023 - 01:47 PM

QuoteFor sure that would be my wife's choice if i could afford it. ... Could afford a wife I mean.

HAHAHA
Andinista

Rank: Mate

Registered: Aug 18, 2003

Last visit: Dec 13, 2023

Posts: 880
Posted: May 04, 2023 - 10:15 PM

CatFan57
AndinistaSolo righting an 18ft cat is not easy. After the second failed attempt I decided to make myself a righting pole, which I successfully tested on light wind. If you decide to go that way, don’t make it too short, there are many videos suggesting boat width but I’d suggest to start with a longer one (I weight 85 kg, that’s a factor to consider).

I'm wondering what one you use. As of now, I'm intending to build/carry the one shown in this video, which has the length of the boat width. This seems like the best one I've found, and it seems like that length should be enough, given that you put your weight all the way out on the end. Downside (which doesn't seem so bad at all) is I'd have to carry it across my hulls in front of my front cross beam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTRS5pTZGV4

This is the page showing how to construct it, if anyone is interested: https://get.google.com/al…6-QFAgGl?feat=directlinkEdited by CatFan57 on May 04, 2023 - 11:10 AM.

The same concept, with two main differences:
- Instead of a plate to be inserted on the daggerboard trunk I use a loop of line near the end of the pole that loops around the daggerboard (easier to implement and to store)
- I store the pole parallel rather than perpendicular to the hulls. This way you may test it extensively before cutting it to the final length.
Andinista

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Last visit: Dec 13, 2023

Posts: 880
Posted: May 04, 2023 - 10:54 PM

Here is the proof of concept..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKuSSZ7JxBA
Sitting on top and moving backwards as in your video is better than hanging from the pole. The advantage is that the center of mass is further out, if you hang from the pole with the feet on the hull it is no different than using a righting line without pole. If you hang from the hands only, your weight is reduced as your legs start sinking.

Edited by Andinista on May 05, 2023 - 09:15 AM.
Andinista

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Posted: May 04, 2023 - 11:11 PM

Storing it underneath the tramp has a couple disadvantages:
If stored along the center of the tramp it is painful to step on it at each tack. Then I stored it about a foot from one hull, but the tramp started to see some damage over time. Now I store it very close to one hull, where it won't touch the tramp.

Edited by Andinista on May 05, 2023 - 09:16 AM.
Andinista

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Posts: 880
Posted: May 05, 2023 - 09:00 AM

Instead of rolling the line around the pole I keep it on the boat, similar to a Hawaiian righting system: it’s a continuous line threaded through SS rings at each corner of the tramp. There is a loop knot on the line at each side at the right position, to hook to a carabiner near the outer end of the pole. (The carabiner is attached to a loop of line around the pole, not directly to an eye strap). I originally had a take away shock cord to manage the excess of line, but I removed it, it was too much stuff under the tramp. I roll the excess of line at the rear beam, around the the tramp cords, attaching the pole there at the same time. I have a bungee with a hook to pull the end of the line after rolling it. At the front beam I have another bungee with a hook to fix the pole at that end.
Andinista

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Posted: May 05, 2023 - 09:08 AM

Not really a continuous line, sorry, It starts and ends at each side of the rear beam
CatFan57

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Posts: 126
Posted: May 06, 2023 - 01:55 PM

AndinistaThe same concept, with two main differences:
- Instead of a plate to be inserted on the daggerboard trunk I use a loop of line near the end of the pole that loops around the daggerboard (easier to implement and to store)
- I store the pole parallel rather than perpendicular to the hulls. This way you may test it extensively before cutting it to the final length.

I had to be away for a couple of days, but thanks very much for replying with this explanation of your setup. (Including your subsequent posts, which I also read.) I cannot see the youtube video you posted showing the "proof of concept" in your next post because Youtube is telling me the video is private. Is is possible you could change that so the video can be viewed?

I am intrigued by your description, though, because that plate that is inserted on or near the daggerboard trunk is the one thing I don't like about the design I linked to. It doesn't seem like a great idea to have a small area of plywood plate putting a lot of pressure on a concentrated area on the hull, so I was thinking what to do as an an alternative. The idea of a loop around the daggerboard to hold the pole in place sounds intriguing - but it makes me question if that wouldn't result in the loop being still looped around the daggerboard once the boat rights(?). Maybe if I saw it I would understand better.

Interesting about the Hawaiian style line system under the tramp, and also the storage system under the tramp and close alongside one hull. I'm wondering what boat you're using this on and whether you are getting drag from water hitting the pole, etc. when you're in choppy seas.

Edited by CatFan57 on May 06, 2023 - 02:56 PM.

--
1998 P18.2
Sailing out of SHBCC, NJ
--
Andinista

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Posts: 880
Posted: May 08, 2023 - 01:00 AM

Fixed the video. That was before cutting the pole, it’s shorter now. And the loop isn’t made or a strap but just a line now.
Yes, the loop stays on the daggerboard after righting, just lift the daggerboard to release it. Recovering the pole might be a bit messi but not too terrible.