No Topaz 14's or Nacra 460's?

cattrap

Rank: Lubber

Registered: May 29, 2023

Last visit: Sep 01, 2024

Posts: 6
Posted: Aug 22, 2023 - 02:41 PM

After attempting to reconcile my requirements with available boats in production, I ended up at a 'plan A' of Topaz 14, and a 'plan B' of a Nacra 460. But there seems to be none around of either (in the eastern US). So I'm wondering if someone might know of some fundamental flaw in either that I'm missing? Otherwise, why aren't there more around?
saltlife77

Rank: Mate

Registered: Feb 10, 2016

Last visit: Jun 08, 2024

Posts: 197
Posted: Aug 22, 2023 - 03:16 PM

I can imagine there aren't many 460's for sale as they are produced in Europe now. Try looking for a 450 or a 4.5. It's the same boat. I had a 450 as my 1st Cat getting back into sailing. Just a heads up.

--
Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
--
saltlife77

Rank: Mate

Registered: Feb 10, 2016

Last visit: Jun 08, 2024

Posts: 197
Posted: Aug 22, 2023 - 03:28 PM

Better Yet...buy the Mystere 4.3 on this site in MD for $1000. 6" difference in total length. Mystere is built in Canada and you should still get support.

--
Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
--
cattrap

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Registered: May 29, 2023

Last visit: Sep 01, 2024

Posts: 6
Posted: Aug 22, 2023 - 03:30 PM

Thanks, @saltlife77. Didn't realize the 460 was an EU boat. And I didn't see 450's or 4.5's on the dealer site (i.e. still in production). Seems like they want you in the 500.
mmmerlin

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Posts: 6
Posted: Aug 22, 2023 - 05:25 PM

Were you looking used or new? Hardy Peters at East Coast Sailboats should be able to get you a new Topaz 14
wildtsail

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Registered: May 15, 2005

Last visit: Apr 19, 2024

Posts: 18
Posted: Aug 22, 2023 - 05:49 PM

The 460 is a great boat for smaller singlehanders, but reality is that the majority of us cat sailors are heavier or want to take a second person sometimes. Therefore the 460 sales were always super slow. Boats like the RS Cat 14 and Topaz 14 have so much more volume to handle more people (RS having even more). Then the new Nacra 500 has a lot of volume and is lighter, it's a better singlehanded option (easier to right and move around on land) and better for extra people. So there is not much reason to import the 460 but it can be done if you plan ahead and special order it.
I sell Nacra in the Northeast and also work with RS Sailing, but I'm an F18 sailor and been sailing cats my whole life. My best email is info@recmarinesales.com
danielt1263

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Registered: May 21, 2013

Last visit: Dec 15, 2024

Posts: 115
Posted: Aug 22, 2023 - 08:56 PM

Were you looking for new or used? About this time last year, I was looking for a new boat. I narrowed it down to a few choices:

Nacra 460

Topaz 14CX

RS Cat 14XL

Of those, the RS Cat was too slow and the Nacra 460 was too expensive... So I was looking for a Topaz 14. Unfortunately, this time of year everybody was sold out and new boats were coming in until next spring. (I did find an RS Cat 14XL, but again... Too slow.)

Lucky for me, Hardy Peters at East Coast Sailboats posted a new Topcat K4X for sale on this site. It included wings and he was selling it for almost a 40% discount. I couldn't say no to that.

I've been very happy with the boat.
cattrap

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Registered: May 29, 2023

Last visit: Sep 01, 2024

Posts: 6
Posted: Aug 22, 2023 - 09:12 PM

@mmmerlin, I figured I could get a new one. I was just worried about getting into a 'dumpster fire' of a boat.

@danielt1263, you may have answered this question. There doesn't seem to be a decent supply of the boats. Happy to hear you had similar logic. Hope you've been happy with the Topaz.

@wildtsail, I'll reach out if I get to a 'plan C' of a Nacra 500. Will need to find more change in the couch though to afford that.

Edited by cattrap on Aug 22, 2023 - 10:13 PM.
wildtsail

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Last visit: Apr 19, 2024

Posts: 18
Posted: Aug 23, 2023 - 02:38 AM

danielt1263Were you looking for new or used? About this time last year, I was looking for a new boat. I narrowed it down to a few choices:

Nacra 460

Topaz 14CX

RS Cat 14XL

Of those, the RS Cat was too slow and the Nacra 460 was too expensive... So I was looking for a Topaz 14. Unfortunately, this time of year everybody was sold out and new boats were coming in until next spring. (I did find an RS Cat 14XL, but again... Too slow.)

Lucky for me, Hardy Peters at East Coast Sailboats posted a new Topcat K4X for sale on this site. It included wings and he was selling it for almost a 40% discount. I couldn't say no to that.

I've been very happy with the boat.

Glad you're happy with the Topcat and Hardy took good care of oyu.

Out of curiosity how did you come to the conclusion that the RS Cat is too slow? Definitely slower than the Topcat and Nacra, but shouldn't be any slower than the Topaz, and it can be pushed much harder in bigger wind conditions with the extra volume modern design similar to race boats compared to the Yves Loday hulls that remind me of the Extreme 40s designed to pitchpole.
dssaak

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Posts: 236
Posted: Aug 24, 2023 - 05:49 PM

Buy yourself a nice used F-16.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--
cattrap

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Registered: May 29, 2023

Last visit: Sep 01, 2024

Posts: 6
Posted: Aug 25, 2023 - 10:38 AM

@wildtsail, I would offer up an answer to your question that the RS Cat 14 doesn't seem all that dissimilar to the Wave. And the extra hull volume (for both, I guess) becomes a disadvantage in a sizable chop, which can make Wave sailing a challenge (slamming to an almost stop), even in good winds. I think I'd rather power down an efficient hull design.

I think there is a market opportunity for a good single-hander that sits between the Wave and the purpose-built race boats like the F15 or F16 (like @dssaak mentions) that were designed for other purposes. I think that's why so many many people end up in a H16, even though that was designed for double-handed sailing.
shortyfox

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Posts: 369
Posted: Aug 25, 2023 - 01:07 PM

QuoteOf those, the RS Cat was too slow and the Nacra 460 was too expensive... So I was looking for a Topaz 14. Unfortunately, this time of year everybody was sold out and new boats were coming in until next spring. (I did find an RS Cat 14XL, but again... Too slow.)

Quote@wildtsail, I would offer up an answer to your question that the RS Cat 14 doesn't seem all that dissimilar to the Wave.

The speed difference between modern boats the same size and with similar weight to sail area ratios will be so little I would not let it figure too heavily in my decision. When you're talking speed differences with these boats being sailed to their maximum efficiency, the fastest one will only "creep" by the slower ones. A fraction of a knot is considered a big difference however but when you're sailing the difference won't be noticeable.

Have you considered a Weta? Very user friendly and fast. Check out the website.

Lastly, the RS Cat 14 and the Hobie Wave look very different.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--
danielt1263

Rank: Mate

Registered: May 21, 2013

Last visit: Dec 15, 2024

Posts: 115
Posted: Aug 25, 2023 - 08:46 PM

wildtsailOut of curiosity how did you come to the conclusion that the RS Cat is too slow? Definitely slower than the Topcat and Nacra, but shouldn't be any slower than the Topaz, and it can be pushed much harder in bigger wind conditions with the extra volume modern design similar to race boats compared to the Yves Loday hulls that remind me of the Extreme 40s designed to pitchpole.

Based on schrs ratings. The ratings below are based on Main & spinnker (no jib because I mostly sail 1-up.)

I kind of graphed them out below. the further down, the faster the boat. The '.' gaps help show relative speed differences.

schrs
1.524 - Hobie Wave
.
.
1.385 - RS Cat 14 XL Spinnaker Solo
1.341 - Topaz 14CX Spinnaker Solo
.
1.243 - Topcat K4X Solo (with reacher) | 1.242 - Nacra 460 Solo Spinnaker
.
.
.
1.050 - Formula 16 Solo

Edited by danielt1263 on Aug 25, 2023 - 09:46 PM.
cattrap

Rank: Lubber

Registered: May 29, 2023

Last visit: Sep 01, 2024

Posts: 6
Posted: Aug 26, 2023 - 10:58 AM

danielt1263
wildtsailOut of curiosity how did you come to the conclusion that the RS Cat is too slow? Definitely slower than the Topcat and Nacra, but shouldn't be any slower than the Topaz, and it can be pushed much harder in bigger wind conditions with the extra volume modern design similar to race boats compared to the Yves Loday hulls that remind me of the Extreme 40s designed to pitchpole.

Based on schrs ratings. The ratings below are based on Main & spinnker (no jib because I mostly sail 1-up.)

I kind of graphed them out below. the further down, the faster the boat. The '.' gaps help show relative speed differences.

schrs
1.524 - Hobie Wave
.
.
1.385 - RS Cat 14 XL Spinnaker Solo
1.341 - Topaz 14CX Spinnaker Solo
.
1.243 - Topcat K4X Solo (with reacher) | 1.242 - Nacra 460 Solo Spinnaker
.
.
.
1.050 - Formula 16 SoloEdited by danielt1263 on Aug 25, 2023 - 09:46 PM.

@danielt1263 I didn't know about the Topcat until I just looked it up. Looks like I should move to Europe, given that both the Topcat and Nacra 460 are sold there.

I saw that there was a Mystere 4.3 for sale on this site. But I couldn't find it in the list of the SCHRS ratings.
danielt1263

Rank: Mate

Registered: May 21, 2013

Last visit: Dec 15, 2024

Posts: 115
Posted: Aug 26, 2023 - 10:36 PM

Topcat ships world wide... https://topcat.de/en/payment-shipping
JohnES

Rank: Mate

Registered: Sep 01, 2002

Last visit: Nov 30, 2024

Posts: 797
Posted: Sep 06, 2023 - 06:49 PM

The boats you are looking at are great choices, but like you said, ease of acquisition and also parts may be an issue.. That new NACRA 500 Mk2 looks to be an awesome boat, but the price tag.... Wowza..... Guess that is why there are not that many around these days when there are so many capable "fun per dollar" used boats available.

If I was anywhere near this it would be hooked up to my car on its way to my house via the nearest body of water. May not have that sexy new catamaran look and won't turn heads at the local marina, but you can single-hand and sail the bejesus out if it in a stink and she'll beg for more...

https://smd.craigslist.org/boa/d/pomfret-prindle-16/7661556431.html.

Good luck....

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
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P.M.

Rank: Mate

Registered: Jan 14, 2004

Last visit: Sep 25, 2024

Posts: 866
Posted: Sep 06, 2023 - 07:16 PM

Agree with Schwartzy, I had to do a double-take but I swear that tramp looks like it was sewed up from a blue tarp.

--
Philip
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