Yesterday went sailing and had the Pintle pin fall out of the rudder. The install manual says to install it using a "cotter key" but there are no pictures. I used a Hairpin cotter pins to secure them on my boat and somehow one fell out sailing. Will be making a new one tonight and am wondering what other people use to secure them better. I'm thinking of using a split pin cotter but that makes it much harder to remove. Also what about washers? Should there be a washer at the top below the pin?
Edited by thaniel on May 20, 2024 - 12:45 PM.
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Prindle 16 (early version, no ports)
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P16 Pintle pins. Lost one sailing
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Posted: May 20, 2024 - 11:37 AM
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Posted: May 20, 2024 - 11:46 AM
Pic of the boat as we all love pictures
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Prindle 16 (early version, no ports)
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Posted: May 20, 2024 - 03:01 PM
Honestly, I found your question a little confusing - I've always thought there was only one "cotter pin" - the "split pin" variety.
Now I see that there are others that people seem to think enjoy the "cotter pin" designation:
https://www.huyett.com/al…roducts/pins/cotter-pins
Some of these are just stupid, of course. Nobody here is going to call a "split ring" a "cotter pin". Otherwise, most of them are just variations on a theme. I've never seen the "bow tie" type and can't imagine where I'd ever use one - certainly not on a boat. But the "ring cotter pin" shown is amazing - I have those on my SC rudder pins. As for what you were using:
https://www.fastenal.ca/p…0Pins?categoryId=600114#
I'd just call that a hairpin or hitch pin clip, because it has nothing to do with a cotter pin. And I won't even use those on a hitch pin anymore, after losing one - and the hitch pin - on the highway through the mountains from BC to Alberta a few years ago. The safety chain saved my (boat's) ass - first time that's ever happened in more than four decades of trailering boats all over hell (literally - details upon request). I now use only locking hitch pins.
But to actually answer your question: Use the regular (split) cotter pin unless you want to be posh and use the ring-type described above, though they're sensitive to the distance between the end of the rod and the hole it's passing through. Hard to get at? Yeah, so what? How often do you plan to mess with it?
Oh - as for the washer, I'd have to see a closeup to offer an opinion.
Edited by jonathan162 on May 20, 2024 - 03:20 PM.
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Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
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1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
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Posted: May 20, 2024 - 04:13 PM
Thanks jonathan162 for the tips and info.
Yes seems there are a bunch of things people call Cotter pins. The manual called it a cotter KEY not a pin and what the boat had when I got it was a hairpin clip and they were rusty so I switched to a stainless version. Perhaps the stainless didn't grip as well?
On my lunch break I made a new pintle out of some aluminum rod and installed it using the split cotter pin to retain it in place. Also changed the other side to a split cotter pin as well. Hopefully no more rudders falling off
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Prindle 16 (early version, no ports)
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Posted: May 20, 2024 - 04:29 PM
Yeah, ignore the "cotter key" business - that's just a weird name, like the English calling a car's trunk the "boot". You'll find the odd person who calls a cotter pin a cotter key, but it's not something different.
There's a risk that someone here may want to descend into an analysis of the relative material characteristics (i.e. shear), but as a rule I wouldn't recommend using metal - stainless or aluminum - for that pin. You want plastic, something with about as low a shear strength as possible. As with rudder locks (depending on the design, of course), these are parts you want to fail - in the event you hit something and the rudder doesn't kick up - in order to save the rudder blade, casting, or transom. -
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Posted: May 20, 2024 - 11:35 PM
Man that photo takes jungle sailing to a new level!!! -
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Posted: May 21, 2024 - 09:20 AM
Hadn't thought of plastic, though to unlock the Prindle's rudder and pull it up it takes a LOT of force on the uphaul line. I'd be afraid I might break a plastic one trying to pull the rudder up.
The picture does look pretty funny though it's not as bad as it looks. We are at the end of the inlet. The tree branches are higher than the mast and once we reach the dock that can be seen on the right side (150 ft?) it widens out. We just paddle out that far. Only done it once but it seemed to work fine.
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Prindle 16 (early version, no ports)
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Posted: May 21, 2024 - 03:08 PM
There's little reason to be afraid. The shear force exerted when you pull it up by hand may seem like a lot to a mere mortal, but is nothing compared to the force exerted when the rudder - attached to the entire mass of the boat, and at speed - hits an obstacle. Orders of magnitude difference. Trust me - you can draw some diagrams and do a couple of measurements and work out what happens when you pull that line, and maybe take some SWAGs at what it is when you're moving at 15 knots.
On the other hand, you can err on the side of safety: Replace those pins with plastic - I'm sure someone here can tell us pretty quickly what the material Hobie (or other) uses for rudder pins, and getting a couple of feet of the appropriate rod stock is usually cheap and easy. And if you do break one, you can consider the circumstances and whether a stronger pin is appropriate, and you'll have your Al pins as spares. But the last thing you want to discover is that you've used a pin that is stronger than all the bigger and more expensive parts around it; better to do it the other way around. -
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Posted: May 22, 2024 - 08:21 AM
I'm not familiar with the P-16 rudder system but I have to say that replacing the two pintles with a one piece steel rod is better if you can do it. You may have to slide them in from the bottom and you may find that the drain plugs will prevent them from falling out. The reason I like this method is that it eliminates a lot of the slop you get with older boats that have the holes in the rudder castings routed out. There are also bushings you can use to stiffen the rudders and using both these techniques will really stiffen the rudders. Hardware stores sell steel rods and if you can find one the appropriate diameter try it and see. It won't be stainless but you can coat it with grease and if you like it you can source out some stainless.
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Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
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Posted: May 22, 2024 - 04:05 PM
Yah the Prindles are as you describe from the factory except on the P16 it's an aluminum bar. It is reasonably slop free. I added bushing to the rudder pivots when i was rebuilding the kick up mechanism. If the bar doesn't fall out the bottom again I think I'm good. Went last night and nothing fell off.
Having the Pintle remove out the bottom has it's challenges, besides the potential of falling out, when trying to install them on the boat at my dock after it's launched. I had to jam it down in the mud and then float the boat over it. A bit challenging but it worked.
This boat's kickup system seems pretty well designed to protect itself when grounding. The boat has survived many decades with the system it has. If I'm worried about hitting something or if I'm sick of having to pull hard on the up haul line, I can just not bother to lock them in the down position which is what I did last night. Oh and there are many other issues this boat has that are far more pressing that need attention. For now if it works I'm on to something else
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Posted: May 22, 2024 - 05:28 PM
On the pin-as-fuse: The original H18 kickup worked fine for years... until it didn't and a lot of castings started to explode, leading to the redesign for the H17 and later H18s. I've never owned a Prindle, so I don't know the mechanism intimately; maybe it's so great that there's no risk. But if it blows one day you can't say you weren't warned.
On the install-from-the-bottom: That's how my H18 was too... it may have been a function of my upgrading the gudgeons, I don't remember exactly. Anyway, I never considered it a problem. Yes, the drain plug had to come out to install it, then you pin it through wherever is appropriate for keeping it from dropping, drilling if necessary. -
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Posted: May 23, 2024 - 05:32 PM
No worries. Rest assured what happens it won't be your fault.
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Prindle 16 (early version, no ports)
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Posted: May 28, 2024 - 05:03 PM
The stock pins are aluminum, Murray's has them in stock. The stock system is designed to pop the rudder up when you hit something. I have modified mine to a line down system because I got tired of the rudders popping up at 20 knots when I hit fish or cabbage heads. I have a pair of the original P16 rudders and castings when they copied the Hobie ones that need a new home. The horizontal 1/4" bolt that the locking pin hooks into bends over time and needs to be replaced. It's a decent system for bouncing around with. Back on topic.... use a ring ding/split ring/cotter ring or; I use a cotter pin. I don't remove the castings from the transom as I have shimmed the pintle pin to have zero slop. Getting your fingers in there with a ring ding is a pain.
If you have any questions, give me a shout. I've owned Prindles since 1989.
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Scott
Prindle Fleet 2
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Tornadoes (Reg White)
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Posted: May 29, 2024 - 04:16 PM
Great information. Thanks!
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Prindle 16 (early version, no ports)
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Posted: May 29, 2024 - 10:44 PM
In case it helps, here is a picture of my friend's P16 rudder from this weekend.
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Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
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Posted: May 31, 2024 - 12:56 PM
Thanks. Looks like he is using a split pin cotter. I'm using that now so all should be good. If I need to trailer it much I may try one of the ring cotters.
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Prindle 16 (early version, no ports)
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