I'm new to cat sailing but have done lots of dinghy sailing in my youth (laser2,laser,sunfish etc) and some monohull (18ft - 26ft) nothing much in the last 10yrs though. I understand that a cat big enough to float myslef (6' 205lbs, and my friend 6'2'' 220) and have enough power to make things fun (spin rig required) is going to be rather "large". I'm in decent shape and my friend is in exelent condition, we are looking to get something big enough for us and maybe the wives too.

After reviewing lots of options it looks like an inter20, infusion18 or similar sized boat is what it's going to take. Our problem is that these boats are monsters. I'm not sure either of us have the skill required to run one let alone something like an F20c (the boat designed for two big guys looking to go FAST). Spending cap is 25k. We will store it rigged at the lake so unless it's impossible for two new sailors to rig in a day don't factor in rigging time.


Looking forward to the forums suggestions,
Scott

okie_sailor

We will store it rigged at the lake so unless it's impossible for two new sailors to rig in a day don't factor in rigging time.

Our problem is that these boats are monsters. I'm not sure either of us have the skill required to run one

Looking forward to the forums suggestions,
Scott

Scott, Welcome to TheBeachcats.com!

You are right to respect the power of the modern beachcat, especially the big ones like the Nacra 20 and Nacra 20 Carbon. Both of those boats are beasts, but there is no reason that two big guys can't handle them easily if you respect the learning curve and and start out in light wind before going crazy.

You can get a new Nacra 20 for your budget, not quite a N20C but maybe a used one if you can find it. You didn't mention where you are located?

When you are shopping be sure and leave plenty of budget for top of the line gear like trap harnesses and comfortable PFD's, especially for the wives.

With your budget and ability to have the boat mast up you might also consider an ARC 22, can sail with three on the traps! Beast mode on!

An older beachcat that is a star at handling weight is the Supercat 20, didn't come with a spin rig back in the day though.

At the smaller sizes, any of the latest generation of F18 beachcats can handle your combined weight, the AHPC Capricorn C2, Infusion MKII, or the new Falcon F18. The advantage would be to have a racing class available if you really get into it.

At the lower price end, you could get a Hobie 21SE (10 x 21), these were only made from about 1988-1990 so are usually projects and would need to have the modern spin rig added. They originally came with deck launched spinnakers.

Let us know what you come up with!

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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Hobie Miracle 20 would be the easy answer I'd think, except that you want a Nacra.

Given your budget, though, start with an I20. They're not too hard to find for a decent price (the classifieds here see plenty of them.)

I think you'd be on the large end of an F18, and unless you have reason to go that route, I doubt there's a whole lot of upside for you.

The I20 will give you TONS of learning curve while still being very user friendly, and IMO it sails like a dream.

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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

I may be biased but your post screams Nacra 20.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
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Yurdle

I'd most likely be keeping it at Hefner in OKC. Other options are Arbuckle, Texhoma or Eufaula. I'd prefer hefner out of these options as it's a similar drive time to the other lakes and less chance of a drunken power boater running us over.

Damon

ARC22- I've never heard of this monster but anything that will let us trap 3 people sounds like it should be FUN.

By new nacra 20 do you mean the Nacra 20NA? I've not seen a lot of info on this boat other than some basic info: curved boards, less beam than a 20c similar sail area. I've no idea on pricing etc so any additional info would be much appreciated.

Thanks for the welcome,
Scott

I was referring to the Nacra 20 that is also called the inter 20, same boat.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

Gotcha - thanks

Where are you located? We've got tons of different cats at Hefner -- it might be worth your time to take a look at them before buying.

It sounds like you're south of here, so definitely watch the Houston/Austin communities for boats for sale.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

okie_sailor

ARC22- I've never heard of this monster but anything that will let us trap 3 people sounds like it should be FUN.

Read through this thread
http://thebeachcats.com/f…opic/topic/14300/start/0

okie_sailor

By new nacra 20 do you mean the Nacra 20NA? I've not seen a lot of info on this boat other than some basic info: curved boards, less beam than a 20c similar sail area.

NACRA loves to cause confusion with their naming, but this isn't all their fault.

The Inter 20 and Nacra 20 and (currently) Nacra 20 One Design are all the same boat, with many many small upgrades over the years so the newer the better. I'm pretty sure you can still buy a brand new Nacra 20 OD. Just to make things more confusing you might hear about the Nacra 20 Open Class, this has been created by a group of Nacra 20 sailors who wanted to do their own thing with the Nacra 20 sails and other details and all race heads up. It's not a different boat, just different racing rules.

The Nacra 20C or the Nacra F20 Carbon or the Nacra 20 Carbon is the 20x10.5 carbon monster with the curved boards.

The Nacra 20NA is a dealer creation (The Cathouse), they basically put Nacra 20 street legal beams on a Nacra F20 Carbon to create a legal trailerable version. This is not a Nacra official project and only available from Cathouse.

That's what I think I know about the Inter/Nacra 20 versions.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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Yeah I'm in Ada. I was browsing the classifieds and spotted a two owner f20c in SanAntonio anyone have any history on this boat? Also spied a few n20's that look good. Any oklahoma/Okc boat forums or are most of those cat sales word of mouth?

Thanks for the info on the 20na I was racking my brain trying to remember where I saw those specs. I'd love to get something stupid fast like the 20c. I've jumped into the deep end with some other toys (motorcycles and sports cars) they didn't turn out badly so I think if I respect the machine it shouldn't bite me too often.

I've got a few questions on flotation devices and harnesses. What are some of your favorites? Why? Footware or barefoot?

okie_sailor

I've got a few questions on flotation devices and harnesses. What are some of your favorites? Why? Footware or barefoot?

For me, Footware! I know people that always sail barefoot, but it is really easy to bust a toe or step on something sharp under water while launching the boat. So I keep a lot of extra "water sock" style shoes for potential crew and I always wear something like this.

http://www.amazon.com/Tev…B1X9I/ref=pd_sbs_shoe_33



--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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I'm a fan of not busting my toes or getting sunburned on my feet lol. Those look perfect.

I agree with a watershoe instead of barefoot. I typically where Keen's, because I prefer the hard sole. For PFD check out kayaking vendors. Extrasport is a brand I have come to like. They are shorter in the waste to allow better access on the harness hook when wearing a harness, and don't bunch up when seated. I like the Murrey half race harness. The over the shoulder harnesses are nice for distance racers, but since I typically am just playing around the half harness works well, but still has good adjustment for comfort.

Other thing to consider are safety gear like VHF radios, whistles, knife etc, that you can carry in your PFD, so pockets are a good think. Especially one that fits a radio.

Good luck with your search. N20 would be nice for you. The SC20 is older design but also a blast (ARC22 is newer version) And the Hobie 21SE would also be a good option. One note is the SC20 is 12 feet wide, the H21SE is 10 feet plus wings. The N20 is newer.

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Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

The zhik ZKGs are pretty sweet.

Keep in mind that all of these boats mentioned are very powerful, a stock N20 wouldn't be lacking in ANY way for your quest for speed. It's a very durable and tough boat, parts are readily available new or used for the most part. It's a ver comfortable boat and sails like a Cadillac, however it will put you on your ass in a hurry if you let it. The Open 20 sail plan makes a nice upgrade for this boat.

The Carbon 20 is definitely a sexy ride. It's a line honors boat but, your going to have to pay for it. The used boats generally run $25k, used parts are not easy to come by as only a handful have been sold. The boat is not quite as robust, as it uses parts from the infusion which are a little undersized, especially in the steering department. If you run a dagger into the ground on this boat and break it, it's gonna be a $2000 repair bill.

The carbon 20 in the classifieds is the former Zhik boat, If you made a call to Mike Krantz he could tell you more about it.

There is such a thing as buying a boat that is overwhelming and not being able to sail or race it very well. I had a guy that had a Hobie 17 and decided he wanted to go big as well. He had motorcycles as well and said he had the need for speed. Anyways, I took him out on a stock n20 once in 15 mph winds. His eyes got about as big as saucers and once we made it back to the beach he never spoke of needing that much power again.

Nacra20 - this sounds like a fast boat. Not bleeding edge but proven. Similar to a vette when the 20c sounds more like a Ferrari. Are there any wear items I should look for specifically? This would also leave enough budget for a smaller cat for mixed or solo sailing. I think this will be what I start hunting for.

Thanks again for all the info,
Scott

Quote

Nacra20 - this sounds like a fast boat.

It is a ridiculously fast boat.

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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Rob how fast are we talking in a typical hefner 14mph wind with low/mid chop, 15knots? 20knots? Sorry I've just never sailed a boat that can do faster than wind speed so it's kind of hard for me to even guess.

I have a Inter-18 and sail with one larger human (me) and one normal size. I'm 195. My regular crew is 160. My boat does 18 kts sitting on the beach (or in most medium wind). I'm guessing/hoping the Inter-20 does 19 to 20 in anything above 15 kts of wind. You can always put the spinnaker up and head just off a beam reach to heat things up. These boats have a large flat surface behind the daggers and will plane off.

I want a Inter-20 real bad. It might be a giving crack to an addict. Maybe I just need a partner I can crew for locally.

I have hit 26 kts on my boat. This is stupid fast and I only need to visit this in ideal conditions/crew. The difference between say 20-21 kts and anything over that is huge. Uber speed is attained in a flat but breaking following sea of 4 to 6 foot waves on a beam reach in about 20-25 kts of wind. My guess is you can get an Inter-20 near 30 kts if you push it and are willing to snap a mast to find out where the threshold is. The danger with this tack is you are sailing down wind and up wind at the same time. The hulls/waves are in a down wind attitude, but the sails/wind are up wind. To put it simply, there is no exit strategy. If you point up, you flip, you you dig deeper, you pitch pole. Everyone needs to be fully attentive. This is extra dangerous when you are landing on a beach and the waves are really breaking.

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nacra inter-18
CNBP
--

IDK, it all feels fast when you hit the water.

The chop on Hefner always scales with the wind -- you won't get high wind without steep chop.

Sailing Hefner is basically the opposite of the ocean. You're playing the wind the whole time, not the waves. If it is blowing 14, it is ALWAYS gusting higher* (say 20-25), and gusting constantly, and gusting from about a 90° angle. The chop never becomes real waves or rollers, so you can ignore it on the bigger cats until you get into break-stuff winds, in which case the chop itself becomes the problem as it starts to hit the hulls with some force, and it hits them out of sync.

*Case in point: Saturday morning windfinder shows 16 gusting to 35 @ 7a, 17 to 30 @ 10a, 14 to 22 @ 1p. Ack! it shows 4am this morning as 18 gusting to 47, but that's certainly not common.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

You initially mentioned a boat you, your friend, and your wives (sometimes) could all be on together. Putting you wife on a rocketship might not be a good first experience. I think your idea of a first play/practice boat is a great idea. H16/17/18, P16/18 are 5 common readily available boats that migh work. Most can be sailed with 1-3 people depending on conditions.

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Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
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Look into the Hobie 21SE.....



Edited by bill40421SE on Jun 01, 2013 - 04:50 AM.

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Bill 404 21SE
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I like the comfort on my wings seats and the foot print of my 21SE.

Can anyone name a more comfortable boat and stable cat?

--
Bill 404 21SE
--

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

Ada huh? I used to live in Hugo and then later Durant while I was going to school.

If you lay off of that southern cooking you could go with a smaller boat..



Edited by Quarath on May 31, 2013 - 08:46 PM.

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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
--

Well I've been meaning to do another p90x run so maybe that would help. Last time went from a similar weight and pants size 38 to 34 and from 220 to 193.

You've talked me into it, that and the mental image of my moderately marshmellow ass hanging off a trap wire next to either of these sexy boats just doesn't do it for me. Problem is I'm still a large mammal even then :p

This is another vote for the Supercat 20, as a platform that can handle big sailors, and is substantially more durable(and cheaper!) than an F20C. 12' beam adds some stability over the Nacra/Inter 20s 8.5' beam. Stock, it's an older sailplan, but adapts well to newer sailcuts and cloths, and I've added spins to a couple of them with good results. The ARC22 is lots more money, not many used ones on the market at any time, and is really designed as a light air machine. We have to put ours away when the wind approaches 20 kts, or we break things! And it's got a maximum of 500 lbs crew wt, and two traps. It's the 27 that has the triple traps.

Although, an Inter 20 is on my bucket list, and I'd better get to it soon, as my ascending age is breeding thoughts of owning fewer, not more, boats.

A Tornado is another affordable cat that is big fun for big guys.

By happy coincidence, I have an SC20 for sale in the classified, feel free to call and chat if you're interested.

Dave
509 276 6355 Spokane, WA



Edited by davefarmer on Jun 02, 2013 - 08:44 PM.

Ok first off I'm reviving my thread so no zombie jokes.secondly the longer my hunt goes the more interested I am in getting an infusion mk1 similar cost to an N20 but leagues ahead in hull design and sail plan. I have dropped down to 190 and have been visiting the gym regularly for the last year. After that graphic post about my then marshmallow self I made some changes :)

I need the lowdown on changes between the mk1 and mk2 infusions - thoughts - preferences and changes etc. as always I'm depending on the forum and it's collective decades of experience in sailing multihulls to cover what gaps I may have.

Thanks again,
Scott

If you are going to leave the boat set up, I think you should look into a Stiletto 23. It may be a little harder to find, but I have sailed against them at Hefner, and they always ate up the rest of the boats. We installed wings on the last one we had, and three people on trap was never a problem. I had a Hobie 21(not SE), and it was a great boat until you had to pull that sled up on the beach( plus other Hobie sailors always gave me grief).

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Peyton Adair
Prindle 18 classic
Hobie 17
Hobie Wave
Wichita KS
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If the i20 is the same price as a MK1 infusion, the i20 is over priced. I still think it's a better choice for the sailing you describe.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

Try out a Hobie 20 for cheap. $2500 -$4500 all day long. I've found mine easy to sail coming from a Hobie 16. I've had it in winds over 15 with 3 onboard ( 2 friends trapped out ) flying a hull through big chop and didn't feel out of control at all. Not really any class races around for them but you get a ton of bang for your buck. If you like the big cat feel ( rides like a fast Cadillac ) upgrade to a N20! My $0.02

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Tim Grover
1996 Hobie Miracle 20
Two Hobie 14's
1983 G-Cat Restored
Memphis TN / North Mississippi
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Buy my Nacra 5.8NA in the classifieds. She is a solid ride and very good for 2 people the sizes you mention, especially if you are just getting into this. Stable and predictable. Can be solo'd by one of you provided it isn't ridiculously windy. solid ride

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-PG
'95 Nacra 5.8NA , rule#2
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trappinny

Buy my Nacra 5.8NA in the classifieds. She is a solid ride and very good for 2 people the sizes you mention, especially if you are just getting into this. Stable and predictable. Can be solo'd by one of you provided it isn't ridiculously windy. solid ride

Comes with daggerboards?

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Ron
Big Bear Lake, Ca.
1990 Hobie 18 Worlds
1988 Mac 26Dagger
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yup, 2 of them....and 3 rudders.

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-PG
'95 Nacra 5.8NA , rule#2
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I've owned multiple N5.8, a N20 and now a AHPC F18 Capricorn.

Based on what you are describing, I would look for an older Inter-20 (N-20) and not spend the big bucks just yet. The boat can be pushed very hard due to the long bows with lots of volume. We raced it competitively at 380lb crew combined crew weight.

Any F18 will be on the small side for your crew weight and for sure you would not be competitive if you are looking to do some racing. For day sailing probably OK, but you would have to be a lot more careful on crew placement in heavier wind.

For the fun factor, I would look for a boat with a chute. The N5.8 is a very good beginner boat, but feels like a truck compared to the newer designs.

way to kill my mojo on trying to sell the old girl. truck. smh

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-PG
'95 Nacra 5.8NA , rule#2
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So on this page we have an I20 sailor recommending an I20, a Nacra 5.8 sailor reccommending a Nacra 5.8, a Hobie 20 sailor recommending a H20.

I'll go ahead and recommend a Hobie 18, which I know can easily handle your combined weight.

Seriously, you sound perfect for a N20, get the nicest one you can find and go for it.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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okie_sailor

we are looking to get something big enough for us and maybe the wives too.

After reviewing lots of options it looks like an inter20, infusion18 or similar sized boat is what it's going to take. Our problem is that these boats are monsters. I'm not sure either of us have the skill required to run one let alone something like an F20c (the boat designed for two big guys looking to go FAST).
Scott

So Scott it looks like you are in a very similar boat as myself. Let me throw one more wrench in the works. On a hot day and no one is around, would you feel compelled to slip both hulls into the cool water on a breezy day and just go for a relaxing little cruise solo? Or will you always be dependent on having someone with you at all times?

I asked the same question as I could totally see myself being one with the water when everyone else is busy and I got the Prindle 18 and Hobie 18 as my suggestions.

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Ron
Big Bear Lake, Ca.
1990 Hobie 18 Worlds
1988 Mac 26Dagger
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There's a Super Cat 20 in the classifieds right now.

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'82 Super Cat 15
Hull #315
Virginia
Previously owned: '70 H14, '79 H16, '68 Sailmaster 26, '85 H14T
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Stop this !!

Get a 20-footer, I 20 , N 20 , Supercat 20, Tornado, H 20, H 21 se, N 6.0, whatever.
2 big guys need a big boat, buy one and go out sailing in light breeze.
Find some-one to explain the ins and outs of sailing in a breeze ( shouldn't be to hard
at the lake-side)
Once you're comfortable with the cat, ad a spi. Once you're comfortable with the spi,
take out the women.

Have Fun !!

André

--
Tornado (80's Reg White)
Prindle 18-2 (sold)
Dart 16 (hired and hooked)
13 mtr steel cutter (sold)
Etap 22, unsinkable sailing pocket cruiser.

Amsterdam, the Netherlands
--

okie_sailor

Ok first off I'm reviving my thread so no zombie jokes.secondly the longer my hunt goes the more interested I am in getting an infusion mk1 similar cost to an N20 but leagues ahead in hull design and sail plan. I have dropped down to 190 and have been visiting the gym regularly for the last year. After that graphic post about my then marshmallow self I made some changes :)

I need the lowdown on changes between the mk1 and mk2 infusions - thoughts - preferences and changes etc. as always I'm depending on the forum and it's collective decades of experience in sailing multihulls to cover what gaps I may have.

Thanks again,
Scott

Scott,

Mk. 2 Infusion has longer boards and an extra bulkhead in the hull for a little more stiffness. The Mk. 2's also come with EVA decking standard. A Mk. 1 Infusion is perfectly fine for lake sailing, honestly I would take it over the Mk. 2 for that use, since the Mk. 2 daggerboard are likely to find the bottom sooner and cost 50% more to replace.

Be careful what you read here. There is a lot of mis-information. For starters, the Nacra 20 is no longer in production-the last new boat was sold in the U.S in 2007 or 2008. Maybe Nacra has one in storage, but I doubt it. The parts that are available are those that are interchangeable with the Infusion, which are a lot, but certain items like the mast base casting, mast cap, and mast are hard to find items that are no longer in production. Yes they are cheaper boats but they are generally much older, which is reflected in the price.

The Nacra Infusion has more hull volume than the Nacra 20 and can handle bigger teams just fine. I'll say the Nacra 20 is a little more powered up in lighter air (under 7 knots), but as soon as the breeze turns on, a well sailed Infusion will put a major hurt on a stock Nacra 20. If you don't believe me, just take a look at the Statue of Liberty race results: http://www.fleet250.org/upload/race/statue_race_results.pdf
Sail no. 1273, 753 and 885 are all Mk. 1 Infusions, 1273 and 753 having the long boards. 1620 is a Mk. 2 Infusion. 1st place was a Falcon F18, followed by a C2 then a Cap. The Falcon had the best F18 team in the country on board, and they were beaten by a Mk. 1 Infusion w/ long boards in a 10-15kt race the next day. Boats were raced between 290 and 380 lbs all up weight.

You can also take a look at the Florida 300 race results for some F18 vs. N20 comparisons, in that case the Nacra 20 sailors were more pro-level and did well, but there wasn't a lot of downwind in major breeze conditions where a modern planing F18 with good crew can shine.

Anyway, I would recommend buying a used boat vs. new for your intended usage, there is a little a new boat will bring you other than less cash in pocket for the bar.

Just a heads up, there is currently a lengthy waiting list to get into a 10' wide slip at the lake hefner city marina. The ones listed as 9' are actually 8'. I learned the hard way when I got my monohull with an 8'2" beam stuck. I have the option to heel the boat to get in.I'm not sure that would be an option for a cat.

Scott - H21SE... you will not be disappointed! Crazy fast cat with speed to burn with the right crew trapped out! They are harder to find in good shape - and require a bit more hands on maintenance / upkeep. But - if you can keep this beast mast up, rigged and ready to sail... that's the payoff! :)

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Andy Gardner
Hobie 21SE "Lickity Split"
Cowan Lake Sailing Association
Foster, OH
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