Yes, I'm not a masochist if that is what Gavin is saying.
Wouter
YES, I did mean TheMightyHobie18 Sorry
Poor comparison - the Hobie 16 doesn't carry a spinnaker or do anywhere near the same speed downhill. Before you flame on, I'm a fan of the Hobie 16...but the bannana hulls make the platform more sensitive to crew weight placement and the decks simply dig in harder when they go under. I'm not saying you can't sail it without driving it in - just that you have to be more sensitive to it.
I'm not flaming just setting the record straight by quoting someone who should know. The flames are coming from just about everywhere else and it's getting old. Some people need to realize that trying to tear down the 16 class isn't going to make another class grow. [Do we need to go back to the tall poppy syndrome?] At the end of the day when the wind builds and builds the 16s are the last boats still out there racing every time. Just a few weeks ago you could have found a bunch of 16s in NJ racing in 30 knots. No not 20 knots not 25 and not even 29.9. 30 knots steady. To say that they are more prone to pichpole than a more recently designed catamaran is simply false. I'm not picking on you this has been said by so many other people who just don't know. Again I'm just setting the record straight. If you don't take my word for it take Gavin Colby's.
Those are Gavins quotes
Who better to compare the H16 with the F18?
Hobie 16 World Champion
Round Texal Champion on a Tiger.
My limited experience has shown me that when you get the real good 16 guys(not me) on the same course with the real good Tiger(F18) guys is that the Tigers pitchpole as much or more in big wind.
There are so many H16's out there that you will get a lot of not so good sailors on them.(causing more flips)
There doesn't seem to be a lot of bad sailors on F18's
This is my third season sailing with my now 11 year old daughter and we haven't flipped yet. (knocking on wood)
We also don't stay out in much more than 20 knots
Same thing at our seminars -- as the wind started to build, all the other boats would gradually drop out of the drills and go to the beach, but the Hobie 16's would still be out there, having a great time. <img src=
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Darnit Will_fl! I told myself I wasn't going to get sucked into these again! <img src=
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OK...enough with the Hobie 16 and F18 comparisons - it's apples and oranges really since the F18 carries so much more power downwind. I'll gladly agree that it is likely easier to keep the 16 upright than an F18 in a gusty blow. What we're discussing here, however, is the Hobie 16 and the Nacra 5.0 and their pitchpole resistance - which one can put the bow deeper into the back of a wave and survive standing?
The point that there are likely less skillful (i.e. newer) H16 sailors out and about is a good one.
EDIT: I think we can probably agree on a couple of things here: if you put the bow under on a Hobie 16, you are less likely to recover than if you put the bow under on a boat with a more perpendicular and rounded bow. HOWEVER, the bannana shape of the hulls makes the boat very sensitive to crew weight - which is a good thing if you have some experience and a bad thing if you don't. That is, if you keep your weight too far forward, you will pay for it more than you would on a boat like the 5.0. However, when it's blowing stink, the bannana shape of the hull lends itself to keeping the bow high if your crew weight is back back back.
It always seems that the arguments between the Nacra and Hobie sailors come from the same people that are scratching their heads wondering why catamaran sailing isn't as big as it once was. Most Nacra sailors wouldn't be out on the water if it wasn't for Hobie. <img src=
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The best thing I ever did was (let Trey) chop up my Hobie with a chainsaw.
It's amazing that H16 owners always seem to think that whenever the boats obvious shortcomings are discussed they see a need to defend the boat. It's been a great boat, there's no denying that. Lots of people have had, and are still having huge fun sailing the thing. It's been responsible for much interest in cat sailing generally and probably has contributed more potential sailors to cats than any other boat.
It says much about the boat that it is still popular today after 30 or 40 years on the water but there's no denying that it embodies very old technology requiring particular skills from the crew to sail it well. I guess that if one can sail a H16 well, success on any other class possibly comes somewhat easier, but the reality is they are a very old design which in these times is very much outdated.
Nobody expects existing H16 sailors to burn their boats or feel in any way inferior because they still like to sail them, but you need to relax.
If you want to sail/race a H16, good for you but expect that when asked, the rest of the world will have a realistic opinion.
No matter how much twisting and turning, and comparing H16 to F18's (two totally uncomparable boats) the fact of the matter is that the Nacra 5.0 is a BETTER design then the Hobie 16. Whether or not a F18 is more prone to diving (which I don't think it is) doesn't say ^&%$*@ about how the Nacra 5.0 compares to the H16.
The rest is just typical Hobie 16
hurt-feelings-blame-gaming
NO, other sailors don't want to destroy the Hobie 16 class and NO, there is no secret conspiracy among ALL non Hobie 16 sailors to talk the design down every time it is discussed. And YES, the hobie 16 will even dive and pitchpole backwards in a blow a charactistic shared with the Hobie 14 and this is rather unique in the catamaran scene. If you like try that on a F18. And YES, a good portion of other boats will stop sooner, but NOT the nacra 5.0 which was they other boat in the comparison. So YES there are definately inferiour points about the H16 that are TRUE beyond a question of doubt.
Wouter
And the nacra 5.0 can't do all those thing ?
Or more precisely , can't do these things better still ?
Wouter
I've owned two H16s and one N5.0 and from my experience the N5.0 was the better boat in all categories. Lot's of fun in the surf too! <img src=
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The H16 was an incredible success story however modern board less hull designs look more like N5.0’s then the old banana shaped hulls on the old original H14s and 16s and there’s good reason!
Still I did learn how to sail on one (just a few years back) and I’m thankful for that experience. <img src=
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Best
There sure are a hell of a lot of people out there who love their 16s.
Probably more than all the Nacra sailors combined.
I guess if you don't get it you just don't get it.
Will,
To be honest whichever boat you plump for your gonna have fun. My opinion is you will probably get more boat for your money with a H16, plus you are more likely to find second hand spare parts for a H16, which could be an issue if you are on a budget. After all alot of new parts are probably going to cost you about the same as you payed for the whole boat.
The Nacra is going to give you better performance and will be more forgiving, but unless you are racing its probably not an issue, and if you are racing then its far more important to go for a boat that your buddies are sailing. Bottom line if you want to have a faster boat go for Nacra, if you want to be a faster sailor go for a H16 (if your buddies sail a H16).
The difference in speed is probably not going to be much faster that you can crawl. So you are not going to notice it unless you are sailing boat on boat.
Be sure and let us know what you go for.
If you like the look of the Hobie more (and perhaps more importantly in your case if the girls like the look more) don't let people push you to go for something else.
Be happy with what you buy.
All the best
Gareth
www.fourhulls.com
Not really Zealot, you only have to look at regatta attendence to see that of those 100.000 Hobie 16's sold only a tiny portion of them is still actively sailing them. At the regatta I attended last weekend of the about 35-45 boat attending only 4 were Hobie 16's. Nacra boats outnumbered the Hobie boats.
Claiming the contrary doens't make it any more truthful, Zealot. H16 glory, while still present today, is however mostly to be found in the (distant) past I'm afraid.
Wouter
Check it out
170 boats registered for the Hobie 16 Open Europeans.
That's your neck of the woods right?
http:/
Enough of all the mudslinging. I don't see any Nacra people doing it, either.
My suggestion is to try both boats out in 10-15 knots of wind and then make up your mind.
And the nacra 5.0 can't do all those thing ?
Or more precisely , can't do these things better still ?
Wouter
Ok, so how about cost of the TheMightyHobie18 VS the Narca 5.0 given most things being equal?
Just asking, no need to get ugly.
Sam
I don't understand that question. What do you mean about the cost. I think Will could buy a 1998 nacra 5.0 for 2200 USD including trailer and other stuff. Do second hand Hobie 18's of that age come cheaper with trailer etc included ?
Wouter
About the same depending on condition of the boat.
Since my research shows last year of manufacture for the 5.0 as '97...
1997 5.0 $3,580
1997 TheMightyHobie18 $4,630
go find a '97 TheMightyHobie18...few and far between, that is, for sale.
I own a H16 and a Nacra 500,
Bouth are very fun and very good for the first steps in cat sailing.
The H16 is a very old design and the fact that there are plenty of cheap used parts is not always an advantage,
Those parts have been used by so many sailors so many years, that they are not useful any more.
I found my self fixing the boat 90% of the time and sailing it only 10% of the time.
Now the H16 is decorating my roof and is used mostly as a resting device for birds,
I say go with the Nacra
Add a spi
Take your time until you are ready for the real thing – A Blade F16
Probably more than all the Nacra sailors combined.
I guess if you don't get it you just don't get it.
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Probably more than all the Nacra sailors combined.
I guess if you don't get it you just don't get it.
There sure are a hell of a lot of people out there who love their jetskis.
Probably more than all the catamaran sailors combined.
I guess if you don't get it you just don't get it.
Does it make more sense now?
Hey Rhino--Missed you at Huntington this weekend. Now that was a sight to behold--about 300 sailors, 200 sailboats (no H16s), and only 2 jetskis. (Oh, and I did have to dodge a few trolling fishing lines.)
Wow this thread is really hot. Let me recap what's happened this weekend...
thursday i went to see a H16, 1976, no soft spots, used as a racer, garaged and babied by a old guy who eventually died, and the people i bought it from got it from a government auction after the guy died. They got brand new rigging for the whole boat, new harnesses, tramp, etc, and 1984 Olympic edition sails in great condition. The couple only took the boat out once since they bought it, back in february, but the husband works long hours and the wife is occupied with a 4-year-old daughter, so no time to sail the boat. All that going for 1650.
Then I went to see the Nacra 5.0 in Miami. Yes it's a 1998, but it's been a rental since it was bought, and the boat looked very abused. duct tape was everywhere, lots of repair to the hulls, everything very scratched up, etc. I didn't bother to see the sails, because I knew this boat was not in good condition to sail comfortably. It was really disappointing, because if this boat were comparable in condition to the 30-year-old Hobie 16, I would go with the Nacra. Unfortunately, this is the only Nacra 5.0 or 500 i could find in the state, so it was the only option.
I knew I would have lots of fun with either boat. I think what we're dealing with is a great boat and then a greater boat. even if the Nacra is in some -or even all- ways better than the Hobie, I'm still gonna get my fill and thrill on either boat. A few of you guys have said I can't go wrong with either boat, and that's the philosophy i kept in mind when looking at different boats.
So what did I do? the verdict: I went with the Hobie 16. The Nacra 5.0 was just not in good enough shape... I wouldn't have been comfortable with the buy. The seller even offered to give it away for 1800, but money can't buy me love. All I need is a reliable cat that will give me lots of fun on the water, and, in my situation where there weren't several options (financially especially), I went with the most practical choice that gave me the most peace-of-mind that I made a good, solid purchase that I wouldn't regret.
I'm going over tomorrow (tues 7/11) to pick it up! i'll get some pictures up here when i get it over to the beach and in the water, which is where it yearns to be. =)
Thanks everyone a billion times for the invaluable info!!! I couldn't have made a more informed decision without all the help. Without the responses to this thread, my decision would have largely been a blind one. If you're a big Nacra fan and you're a little disappointed that I went with Hobie, I hope you realize that, before this thread, I never had the great opinion of Nacras that I have now. Thanks for illuminating the other options beyond just the Hobie 16. And if you're a Hobie fan and you're glad I went with the H16, I'm proud to be part of the club! I can't wait to get on the water and see how this boat sails, especially after all the praise that has likewise been bestowed upon the classic Hobie 16 design.
I'm a believer that ambivalence is truly a fact of life, but your comments made this decision fun and rewarding, not frustrating and confusing. I'm sure I'll have some more questions with rigging and trailering the H16, so I'll be back when those pop up! thanks again!!!
The right choice. A well maintained Hobie 16 is always to be preferred over any well beat up alternative. I wou;dn go out to sea on anything that isn't well maintained.
You get a good time on the Hobie, no doubt. The discussions mostly centred on the assumption that the state of the boats were comparable. In this case it wasn't.
Best of winds and heaps of enjoyment sailing your Hobie 16 !
Wouter
+1 and let us know how you go.
Berny
Good Used Boats are hard to come by so, You definitely had to go with the best condition boat for the money. If you catch the Racing bug, One advantage with the H16 is that there will be more oportunities to Race one-design. Even though the Nacra is more of a performance boat, I've never found it a lot of fun to race against portsmith numbers. Once you get some experience on the H16, you'll have to step up to an F18. Then you'll have the same debate on your hands: Nacra F18, Hobie Tiger, Capricorn, Infusion. Have Fun!!!