Hobie 18 rates 109 TEXEL (DPN 71.4) Same as Nacra 5.7 (DPN 72.6).
Add a spin and you get 104
Hobie 18 with F18 rig, no spin rates 107. Same as Nacra 570 (DPN 70.5) and Prindle 18-2 (DPN 69.1)
Add a spin and you have 102.
F18= 106/101
F16= 106/102 ( 2 up)
Crossing over to Portsmouth will give you a range as a starting point.
so you're saying Texel rates the H18Thang as FASTER than an F18?
No, slower. 107/102 vs. 106/101.
Pardon my inexperience - but what are the two numbers?
Mark,
OK, I was referring to the whining regarding who is responsible, not whether the rating systems are fair, accurate, etc.
At some point, people have to either just accept the systems and race, or come up with something better and get it into common use. Anything else is just banging your head against a wall.
Like Jeremy said, gotta love one-design...
Mike
Pardon my inexperience - but what are the two numbers?
107 no spin H18Thang/ 102 Spin TheMightyHobie18 Thang
106 no spin F18/ 101 Spin F18
Texel automatically calculates both ratings for no spin/spin.
FYI-
My boat rates 106/101 with the Gcat rig and 1.035 SCHRS (no spin).
ALSO-
Neither measured rating system accounts for pinhead vs. squaretop main.
Here is the current SCHRS database: http:/
First number is rating without spi the second number is with a spi fitted.
Wouter
OK, I was referring to the whining regarding who is responsible, not whether the rating systems are fair, accurate, etc.
No offense... but you still are avoiding the point.
The who is responsible and whining issue is not a matter of individual responsiblity... ie WindyHill's
Moreover, The standard paeon to Oh... if it were only One Design is BS as well.
One design is ONLY working... because some individuals step up and ensure that the boats meet the class rules... (that somebody elsle wrote down and got world wide agreement on. )
At the NAs... they measure you... eg.. hobie parts, hobie sails etc, etc, minimum boat weight. It's a lot of effort as well.
Portsmouth is not fundamentally different.
In WindyHills case... he needs some individuals to step up... take on the rating responsiblity an OK his rating... just like the hobie 16 measurer did at their nationals (After all he declared your boat is a legal one design hobie 16).
It's simple! really!
Bottom line... TWO Parts needed here.
Windy Hill... Spec's out what changes he made.... calculates his rating lots of ways .... voodoo... whatever.
Second Part... Local Rating board...Actually looks at boat.. Meets for 10 minutes... discusses the matter.... votes on Windyhills proposed rating
End of story
(You don't want a national board to generate ratings sight unseen .... would you?)
Ratings will always be an issue, someone will always be unhappy it won't matter if it's created by committee and singed off by the grand poobah of all ratings great and small himself/herself. If you sail handicap you simply have to accept the obvious flaws and not take it too seriously. The bitching will never end and the bitching is as much part of racing handicap as the sailing itself.
I avoid racing handicap as much as possible and this has improved my enjoyment of the sport, but that's just me.
Whatever Ding,
Just join with Jake and whom ever and come up with your
certified or approved
rating for the frakenboat of Windyhill.
(Your indigestion will go away and it's good for the sport to have as many people racing as possible)
what's the DPN hit for foils?
Mark,
I'm not avoiding anything, and I agree with some of what you're saying, but I really don't understand why you're attacking me (or maybe I'm reading too much into it?).
Nothing that I've written is untrue.
My points about who is responsible for what are in the rules.
As several others have pointed out here, we will never be able to make everyone truly happy with any handicap system (hey, there's no way to make everyone happy about anything, so why should that be different?). As long as people aren't happy, they complain.
One design makes the issue of handicaps go away. Is it perfect? No, but it avoids these specific discussions.
The only reason I replied to this thread to begin with is because there seemed to be confusion about the PRO having responsibility to determine a handicap number. As I see it (per the RRS), it is the responsibility of the sailor. If the boat is entered incorrectly, the event measurer files a report to the RC, who in turn files a protest and the jury ultimately decides the issue.
I guess the real lesson here is that OAs should not take this stuff lightly, and should make sure they have someone at the regatta to serve as the measurer (can be a competitor) who knows the ratings systems inside and out. Your point about having a local board agree on the number falls in line with this approach.
Mike
First a flying foil boat has to race in a buoys' race... Then talk about the need to use windspeed adjustment ratings....
As far as I'm concerned the current system serves its purpose allowing a mixed bag of boats to sail together for Wednesday night beer can and weekend fleet races and this is where the
more is better
rule applies. But once you get past the Wednesday night beer can race or weekend fleet race, that's where the
more is better
ends for me.
Putting everyone on the same line for a two day event then pretending that the handicap system makes everything square is not good for the sport in my opinion. Yes I know the area eliminations are run using this format but that is done out of necessity only and the DPN rules are pretty tight (no modifiers).
The foilers have pretty much come and gone. But, if they ever start to foil in the 3knts wind range then we'll have an issue. When that time comes it will probably be handled much the same way the mono's deal with the multi's.
If this decision is to be made by someone, who is it? Would it be a EMSA ruling? I would like to put this to rest, will the 67.6 number work for those in the Southeast area where I sail? Jake seems to say yes, any others wish to chime in?
Ding
Whatever... Our positions are well documented
Are you onboard with Windy Hill's request on his rating?
don't duck the question... again!! (since you are running the premire PN event in the region.... your word has weight)
Mark
I have almost no issue with the numbers Jake has laid out but, I'd want clarification regarding the main. I suspect the TheMightyHobie18 main is smaller than the Tiger main, if that's the case the big main hit needs to be used.
Using DPN numbers (not wind correctors)
Hobie 18 = 71.4
Spin hit = .96
main hit = .98 (big main hit)
Mast hit = .995
DPN = 71.4*.96*.98*.995 = 66.84
Just to make it crystal clear this configuration cannot be used at an Alter Cup Area qualifier.
That's my position on Windy's request for what it's worth.
One more thing... in light air this frankenboat is going to be a rocket especially if singlehanded!
Using DPN numbers (not wind correctors)
Hobie 18 = 71.4
Spin hit = .96
main hit = .98 (big main hit)
Mast hit = .995
DPN = 71.4*.96*.98*.995 = 66.84
Just to make it crystal clear this configuration cannot be used at an Alter Cup Area qualifier.
That's my position on Windy's request for what it's worth.
One more thing... in light air this frankenboat is going to be a rocket especially if singlehanded!
As a comparison-
H18Thang (no spin) has a Texel rating of 107 and is shared with P18-2 with DPN of 69.1. Add a spinnaker: 69.1 * .96 = 66.34.
H18Thang w/ spin has Texel of 102, same as F16 2 up w/ spin- DPN 65.2.
So the 66.84 is quite close to extrapolated range of 66.34 - 65.2.
Since you are starting with a stock boat with known DPN, there shouldn't be any debate over using the standard modifiers.
Windy, it's going to be up to the individual race management - but we're all a close group and good friends. I don't believe anyone would have a problem with the number we reviewed - but keep an open mind about it in case someone presents a better argument for something else or the results show that the number may not be correct. Concensus could change...that's the peril of walking far off the beaten path and racing with it.
I'll chime in too. The more you learn about any rating system the less accurate it becomes. I have been
handling
a large portsmouth regatta for years. Remember the system basically is better than not racing, but that is all. Everyone (so far)is assuming the averaged portsmouth rate, as oppossed to the wind corrected rates. Meaning that the rating will even be less accurate for any given one race. Handicapped racing must be looked at as, friends trying to enjoy sailing together. There is very little meaning in the results. If someone is trying to
beat the system
, then it becomes obvious to those who do know what is going on very quickly and obviously. And as a previous poster said it will most likely not be protested. The reason is because it is obvious to those of us who know better. It is the old saying, argue with an idiot and you start to look like one too.
So if you find that the new set up seems a little too sucessful, that is your clue it is probably behaving outside what the system contimplated for giving proper corrections for. There are several boats that I know of that you can modify and get a very good (or unfair) rating. Is it worth making a big fuss over it? No. However the sailors that engage in that type of activity may not know that they are not getting the respect from the other sailors that they may think is due them.
Rather than risk that out come, if you have a really
different
set up than what the other sailors have be prepared to adjust the rating downward yourself. There is only the respect of others that you are competing for, no money in this game. So act accordingly and you can't go wrong.
Why not just use SCHRS ?
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Can you race unoffically until enough experience to establish a rating?
Yes you pay the entry and enjoy all rights and privleges of racing but be ineligible for any trophys. Would 10 to 20 individual races (2 to 4 regattas) be sufficent to establish a fair rating?
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That makes too much sense!
SCHRS is for small cats...
We race all boats together, monohulls, dingies, sailing canoes, PHRF boats ...everything...Porstmouth can do everything.
Next all the fancy formulas miss one big factor the wind. It is always a different speed coming from different directions and is different in the various areas of a single race course. All rating system simply ignore that big fat glaring part of the game. It is a simple consistant x. If you boat does happen to work well with that assunption..oh well..
Can you race unoffically until enough experience to establish a rating?
Not that big a deal. I would not worry about it. Being up front it all it takes. Try your rating out. It will take awhile for you to get a feel if the rating is even an issue. If anyone has a beef, just be willing to adjust is all. Typically the ones with a beef that can't be reasonable in discussing... probably know less and are more in the dark than you...
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If someone is trying to
beat the system... it will most likely not be protested... It is the old saying, argue with an idiot and you start to look like one too."
While it's hard to disagree with that last statement, this is the attitude that slowly kills events. When people get tired of rules not being enforced, they may stop coming to regattas.
This is one reason that class rules are strictly enforced at Hobie events. We don't care (as much) if one person goes away because we won't allow illegal sails or no Comp Tip, we just don't want to lose the whole fleet slowly over time because the rules aren't being enforced, and someone is perceived to be unilaterally gaining.
Mike
Yes you can and there are two ways, but I must advise IMPO converting DP-N to PHRF is a hokious pokious numbers.
First is to take you DP-N after you have taken all the hits, subtract 55 and times that by 6. I.E. for a Prindle 18-2 in stock configuration 69.1 - 55 = 14.1 X 6 = 84.6. This formula can be found on the Portsmouth site
Better as it is somewhat discussed use the Texel rating for you boat (if in stock configuration) explain to the RC that they are using the same foundation PHRF is using etc..... to establish the base rating.
IMPO this is the best avenue to take.
Duh, I didn't think of that. That's a great idea. Can somebody run a Hobie 18 with an F18 sail plan through Texel...or wait...is there a point? I'm not intimately familiar with the Texel rating system but the Hobie 18 is going to come out the same as the F18 isn't it?
Go to the TEXEL site - there is a spreadsheet there that will allow you to plug in you measurements for your sails etc... and come up with a number. Don't be surprised if it is the same or less than a 3% off.
People, the RC are VOLUNTEERS who are wired-out stressed just putting on the regatta. It's about as pleasant as a root canal. I am amazed that anyone can stand to run a race more than once, much less for years.
And to top it off, the people who come to the race want the RC to figure out what THEY should know, which is their OWN Portsmouth number. And bitch and cry about how the race is run, when they've NEVER run a race themselves, and refuse to spend the time to learn about Portsmouth.
The system is just fine. It's up to YOU, the RACERS, to make it work. The whole basis in Corinthian sailing is that it's SELF-POLICING.
This means that it's up to the RACERS:
--to be honest.
--to deal with EACH OTHER when someone isn't honest.
--to solve infractions on the water, but when you can't, then take it to the RC in a reasonable tone WITH EVIDENCE TO BACK ANY ASSERTIONS YOU MAKE. <<That means KNOW YOUR NUMBER.
BTW...if you build yourself a Frankenboat, it's absolutely incumbent upon YOU to know your mods and report them to the RC. Live with what you're dealt - you didn't have to change the boat.
WORD!!!!!! [color:
red
]
Am I too understand that the self-tacking jib takes no hit? Even though it is a smaller sail the ease of tacking with it makes me think some hit should apply. I planned to use the lower 67.6 which includes a .995 hit for the jib. Ding seems to think a 66.8. I looked into sail size early on and was told the Tiger main is smaller, I cut a foot off the TheMightyHobie18 boom and its still too long for the Tiger main. The mast is only 1.5' taller and this is the old ST main, not the STX.
Hobie 18 mainsail area= 15.3 sq. meters
Hobie Tiger mainsail area= 17.0 sq. meters.