What is faster, a windsurfer or a multihull?

Also note: that Orma60 has a few reefs in it's mainsail. Wonder what it would be doing if it were using a set of sails and mast specifically designed around the windspeed they were experiencing.

Sure, many windsurfer sailors use a range of gear. But that's partly because they can afford plenty of gear for the cost of a single cat.

And boards are very efficient. Longboards, with one small sail for all conditions, are efficient across the full range of winds. Last time I sailed my Mistral IMCO (just 7.4m2 of sail) against cats I was similar speed around a windward/leeward course to a Nacra 14 square (which is a few points slower than a Hobie 16) that was sailed by an A Class worlds runner-up. That was in about 12-15 knots. In lighter airs the Nacra would have been ahead, around a triangle or in stronger winds the board may have been quicker. The old 12'9" LEchner D2 boards were even faster and I'm sure they'd burn off cats of the same length even upwind in most conditions.

Considering the board is over a foot shorter and carries about half the sail AND the longboards will sail in light winds and in stronger winds than many cats, it's pretty impressive.

Good Formula guys used to sometimes pace our club fleet. Their square-running speed seemed similar to the world A Class champion, upwind they were a little bit lower than the Formula 16s (Taipan 4.9s) with slightly slower VMG.

Compare apples to apples. A 12' board with 7.4m2 of sail would be VERY competitive with a 12' cat with 7.4m2 of sail in just about all conditions, and it would kill it for top-line speed.

Sure we are comparing apples to oranges, but it is too much fun to let the opportunity pass.

How about a 107 kg surfboard with 18.7 sq. mtr sail area ? I bet the cat would knock you so hard that you have to sleep standing up at night.

Two can play this game. We should cats be forced to compare to YOUR specs and not the other way around ?

News flash. catamaran design has advanced a little since the introduction of the Nacra 14 sq. and Hobie 16.

Cat sailors are not asking the surfers to race us on some 80's surf board ? Apples to apples remember. You can to use the lastest and fastest, we get to use the latest and fastest.

Going on this statement alone. Who is FASTER ?

Thanks to the German boat show we have another direct comparison between an olympic Tornado, surfboard and kite surfer. As predicted the cat won, again ! The surfer started immediately to bitch about the weather not stable enough or the water not being flat enough. No guys, the right response would have been :"Congratulation cat sailors, you guys won this match. Be sure to bring that Tornado back next year as you will get a rematch"

I'm loving this, truly

Wouter

Although very humorous, this comparisons between wind surfers and catamarans is about as informative and sensible as comparing windsurfers "speed" to ski boats, or how about comparing a windsurfer to "Geronimo" in an around the world race? How many skiers can a windsurfer pull up in 15 knots of wind?
We have all seen such “gimmicky” competitions as a human sprinter raced against a horse over 100m, and many years ago they used to race planes against cars! I don’t think anyone has really been interested in the outcome as any sort of definitive proof, one way or another, as to the relative “performance” attributes of one over the other?
If “conditions” are applied to any comparison between two very different things, then different results are forth coming. I.E. compare a windsurfer to a cat over, say, a 500-mile coastal race? Or make the comparison through a shore break with 3 metre waves. What about comparing the windsurfer to a “little Americans cup” C class cat around an “Olympic” course in 2 knots of wind? Then compare a windsurfer, sailing in 50-knot winds along a man made channel that is hardly wide enough or deep enough for a cat to actually sail in? It should be obvious to even the dimmest person, that different conditions will achieve far different result and because a cat and a windsurfer are such different craft, there cannot be any really equitable comparisons between their relative speeds, endurance, comfort, or even race, performances. So a windsurfer has been recorded at speeds approaching 50 knots? So what? My car does that in second gear! Is that any sort of a relative comparison?

Wouter, I raised the point because you said boards need a lot of wind and are therefore innefficient. If you want to talk efficiency then surely you should also allow for the fact that boards achieve high speeds with much less rig and much shorter hulls (and lower cost....) AND the boards normally get higher absolute top-end speeds.

I know people like Bethwaite says boards are innefficient because they need wind, but Frank doesn't know modern boards or performance longboards.

"Two can play this game. We should cats be forced to compare to YOUR specs and not the other way around ?"

Sure, it would be almost impossible to REALLY compare specs. But going on and on about the way a boat with 17m2 of sail can beat a boat with 7m2 of sail seems to be like an F16 sailor going on and on about being able to beat a Hobie Wave. Of COURSE the bigger boat is faster, just like the Tornado is faster than an F16. So what? The smaller F16 is still more efficient.

Actually, given that the old "dart specials" and course tandems were damn fast, a big board that costs as much as an F16 could be damn quick!

"News flash. catamaran design has advanced a little since the introduction of the Nacra 14 sq. and Hobie 16. Cat sailors are not asking the surfers to race us on some 80's surf board ? Apples to apples remember. You can to use the lastest and fastest, we get to use the latest and fastest."

Hang on, I was comparing the Nacra 14 (designed about '87??) sailed by an A Class world's runner-up and N14 national champion, to an IMCO designed about '91 and sailed by #5 in the nation but with a best world's place of 25th. Both are ODs of similar age. Sounds pretty comparable to me.

When I compared the FW board to an A Class, I was comparing a 2003 FW board sailed by a guy about mid-way in the national fleet, to a 2003 A Class sailed by the world champion. Sounds pretty comparable to me.

Sure, a 20' cat is normally faster around a course than an 8' FW board. I have made the same point to windsurfer sailors when they get ****. 🙂

I'm not saying boards are better than cats, merely saying that both are superb in very different ways and it's a bit rough when you look at merely one criteria (speed around a course in medium winds with no allowance for size) and then use that to say the cat is more efficient.

Darryl, you're right, this is pretty meaningless. But once meaningless comparisons have started it seems reasonable to give another point of view.

By the way, you mentioned a long coastal race. Last weekend in the 110 or 150 mile Coastal Classic in NZ, a board and a Tornado Sport sailed as unnofficial entrants. The boardsailer had a support boat and switched gear at one stage IIRC and beat the Tornado home. Apparently it was mainly an upwind race. Still not comparable (since the board switched rigs) but interesting.

I've never been passed by a wind surfer however I'm not out there sailing in 40 -50k winds.:-) Under 20K not even close.

OK Children, don't you think it's all been said, and frankly becoming incredibly boring by now?

Why not leave the server space available for meaningful posts and discussions?

To that I fully agree.

I remember the Tornado crew reefed their main in the middle of the race, so in effect they changed their rig as well.

But that is the fun of the cat / surfer comparison right. Surfer win some and cat sailors win some and that keeps both of us on our toes.

Wouter

Agreed.

I got bored sailing windsurfers when I was 12 and started sailing cats. Sold my first short board and sails to help finance my first Dart (and cut a lot of grass too around my parents and their friends houses).

Hey Scooby,
the topic was "which is faster", a no-brainer in a straight line, really. I think a Hollander by the name of Jaap van der Rest sailed a standard Dufour Wing to 23,7knots in about 1979, a speed which tallies up nicely with discussions on this forum as to how fast a Tornado has ever clocked down a 500m course. Anyone who remembers the Dufour Wing will say, "but how ???"
Modern windsurfing gear has moved on a bit too since then and the top speeeeed has almost doubled.
Whether you got bored of windsurfing and cut the grass in your neighborhood to finance your first Dart, or whether you gave up windsurfing to cut grass, or whether you smoked the grass, is irrelevant.
Why not have the best of both worlds, I sail cats when its windy and windsurf when it`s insane, so I only have to sit on the beach when there`s less then 15knots (ie not enough to sail cats .)

or will it continue with the boards?
I bet on the proas because of more righting moment, but maybe someone will invent a windsurfer with a "dressable" sail, to reduce drag....
Luiz

23.7 knots on a Dufour Wing...... So there's hope for my old steed...... easy girl, I know you want to do 24 kts..

She'd have to keep away from smoking the grass if she was to do that speed.

I think it would be fun to have comparison races.

I know that when I sailed/raced my windsurfers, the idea of sailing a sailboat was about as appealing as driving a volkswagen compared to a Ferrari. Windsurfering is more like pure sailing as you can feel very clearly exactly what is happening to the sail and therefore react exactly. Therefore I think that windsurfing is a great primer to cat sailing.

Sailing a cat for me is a bit more practical as I use it to carry building materials to the cabin I am building on an island and also the water temperatures where I live are too cold to be getting into and out of @ my age...

Sailing a sailboat (catamaran) is more of a passive activity sort of like golfing compared to hang gliding.

That's interesting that (one of the posts mentioned that) the sailboard was better upwind. My Dufour could clean everyone upwind due to the hull shape but it was a holy terror going straight downwind. Into the water, out of the water, ad nauseum...

I agree with Darrel that comparing a cat and a windsurfer is ridiculous, however with comparison racing we could find out the truth.

What is the current world speed record for a boardsailer?

I am with Steve on the sailing the windsurfer when it is insane and the cat when it is windy and smoking the grass (just kidding) when it's not windy enough...

Hi Luiz,
It`s an interesting thread, those who are bored don`t read ..
I think the proas have a limitation in that they are super-efficient in under 20knots or thereabouts, at which point the loads on them become too high and they explode. YP, Macquarie etc suffer the same fate - 2 great days of almost-record breaking speeds, and then oops, back to the factory for 2 years to raise the millions to re-build the broken butterfly. The forces on the rig and hulls etc, from what I understand are similar to traditional sailing craft in that the load from the rig are transferred to the hulls in the form of heeling moment and in order to combat this the leeward hull must get further away from the rig as the wind gets stronger, the main beams etc must be reinforced exponentially to cope which adds weight, which adds to the forces. I`m no engineer, but I understand that the forces acting on a trimaran rig and platform are MUCH higher than on a keelboat - all the forces are the same except that a keelboat will absorb the additional force caused by a gust by simply heeling over more before it accelerates into the new windstrength, whereas the tri will have nowhere to heel when the leeward ama is fully depressed into the water and the main hull starts to lift - the forces are way higher, and to compound this the drag is at maximum.
This is why the windsurfer design is far more speed-friendly, it may be less efficient at lower windspeeds although debatable : http://www.fanatic.com/cgi-bin/news/news.cgi?id=1130756729&sprache=e&navi_sprache=e
(Doing 29.7knots in 12-14knots cannot be called inefficient).
The fact that as windspeed increases the rig is used to support the sailor`s weight and causes LESS drag on the hull with no heeling moment due to the flexible mast base means that the board stays flat, the main challenge is keeping it from becoming airborne and maintaining good contact between skeg and waterflow, a spin-out at that speed will most likely end up in a few bruises at least.
Yes the windsurfers are using really high windspeeds to get their records but as can be seen from the link I gave this will start to change, although efficiency will always drop exponentially as the conditions get stronger whichever craft you use. If you use the efficiency ratio of the windsurfer in the link posted above, you would expect the windsurfers to break 50knots in 24,07knots of wind, we know this to be impossible or they would have run at 100knots in 50knot winds.
If the proa`s and other strange craft want to be the first to 50 they will have to either increase their efficiency in light winds (sub-20knots) or increase their maximum wind-range while maintaining their efficiency ratio.
Good luck to all who make the effort. I remember it wasn`t too long ago when the critics said the boards would NEVER break 40knots, and a while before that they would NEVER break Crossbow`s record (36knots).

I wonder how much worth the materials in MI or Yellow Pages are?

Personally, I believe both the windsurfers and foiled proas will beat 50 knots, only the proas have more room for improvement, so could do it earlier. All windsurfers can do is reduce the drag from the crew's body. Foiled proas may still explore supercavitaing foils and different sail shapes. Structural issues tend to be minimized by better technology.

I second the Rolf's question about YPE cost of materials. Shouldn't be so much, after all it is a small boat. From what I read, it is the sail that is complicated, difficult to build and expensive. Anyone knows how much they spend on the toy yearly?

Luiz

Hi Luiz,
I agree, in time both camps will go over 50, it`s inevitable, they have been so close many times. Finian has reported speeds of over 50knots on GPS, but to maintain that over 500m is the hard part. There is a lot of excitement as to who will be the first to break 50knots, will it be the boards or the hi-tech proa foiling boats ? It is almost more important to be the first than to hold the record, it seems.
I think the cost of a boat like MI speaks for itself that they broke it last November, and are only ready to try again now, a year later. Added to the material cost is the labour cost of highly skilled engineers and designers like Lindsay Cunningham. I think it is actually much more difficult for them to finance and build these craft since there is no commercial use for them, and very little gain other than personal satisfaction, I am sure that their sponsorships only cover the cost of building and maintaining their boat, maybe it covers more, but does it pay the salaries of these highly skilled people, I don`t think so. I believe they are doing it in their own time at their own cost to a large degree.
In stark contrast to this, the boardsailors are mostly paid professional sailors, and have rig and board manufacturers sponsoring their efforts, and constantly developing new technology to make them go faster, as there is quite a big financial incentive to be the "world`s fastest sailmaker" or "world`s fastest board manufacturer" - It is commercially viable as it converts directly into more customers for these brands ie if you want to go fast, buy an F2 board and a Naish Stealth sail.
I fully admire the efforts of the YP/MI crew and others as I think it is much harder for them - you won`t see MI travelling to many different locations world-wide to try for the record due to the costs, they have to concentrate their efforts in one place, luckily they have Sandy Point !
Have a look here - http://oceanspirit.co.za/speedweek/html/15oct.html
There is just so much depth among the boardsailors trying for the record that it seems inevitable they will get there first.
I have to disagree with you on one point, you say the proa`s have a lot of room to improve, and you think the boards can only reduce drag of the crew - the design of boards, sails, masts and fins have changed radically in the last 5 years and i don`t think they will stop developing, boards are now being designed with air-pipes that funnel air in from holes in the deck and channel it through the board that exit under the tail to make the board ride on a cushion of air, fins are getting faster and more stable (a major limit on speed in the past was cavitation, this is being overcome), sails are just getting better all the time, and mast flex/stiffness is a mixture of art and science.
Interesting that Finian tried a wind-cheating lycra type suit in the canal, but sailed in Namibia in shorts and a harness, and didn`t shave his head to reduce drag ! (or his legs )

Wouldn't it be a big laugh if MI got there first just the same.

Wouldn't that say something ?
Wouter

Wouter,
I don`t for one second believe that they could very well be the first to do it - And would sincerely applaud their acchievement (while secretly hoping the boards steal it back in the dark of night )
It`s great to see the two diverse approaches taken and the outcome.
Interesting to see at recent Weymouth Speed Week a Hobie Trifoiler not too far off the pace of the fastest board, although light conditions prevailed.
If they want BIG WIND they should be in Port Elizabeth this afternoon, pity about the 5m swell, sorry for the Hobie guys, they seem to be struggling to get all the racing in!

Yes, IF it happens it would prove that a much larger, more expensive, more complicated and more fragile boat is sometimes slightly faster than a cheap and simple alternative.

That's not exactly news, though.

Just a question.

How did the old Yellow Pages endeavour record stand ?

Apparently things aren't that easy for the board guys as some would like to make it appear.

Besides I'm still waiting for the guy who takes out a sheet of that strong farmers platic in a Hurrican Katrina like storm and shows us all how to better 50 knots with some 10 dollar hardware.

Wouter

IMO, I found it allways dissapointing that these 'record breaking machines' sail only in one direction.

A real boat can sail in both directions

Yes, but can it do 45knots?

Wouter, combining several of your comments gives...

I remember Katrina posting winds of 175 mph. At 140% that has our farmer windsurfer pushing 245 mph!!

Great ride until you fall.

Actually, I believe I did witness that event last week in hurricane Wilma, although it was blowing close to 70 miles per hour. The guy was securing a silt barrier (heavy cloth material, like a cat trampoline)to keep it from tearing up his pool screen, and got dragged across a small pond about 50 feet before he let go.

Too bad it wasn't set up as a sanctioned speed course.

"How did the old Yellow Pages endeavour record stand ?"

A combination of factors : It was (and still is) a damn hard speed to beat. Your average joe windsurfer who sails on weekends probably hardly ever goes quicker than 25knots.
Added to that, speedsailing fell from interest for many years, not a lot of effort was being put into that aspect of the sport in the 90`s. If no-one is tring to break records, they don`t get broken !
Now that there is a lot of interest again, we could see the record changing hands more than once a year, and there will be many more challenges from other boat-like craft, who are actually as far removed from sailing craft as windsurfers are from hot-air balloons.
"Apparently things aren't that easy for the board guys as some would like to make it appear."
I couldn`t agree more - makes the acchievement of Finian Maynard all the more remarkable, has broken the world speed record twice in as many years, after it stood for 11 years.

I won`t be at all surprised if a kitesurfer rocks up and gets there first either, a while back windsurfers were laughing at kitesurfers trying to go fast, now they are almost at the same pace.

Speaking of Yellow Pages, come on Wouter - your hulls at least are the right colour - just add hydrofoils and an I-20 rig, and go out in 45-60knots, you should set up a decent speed while cartwheeing down the North Sea ??

Agreed for the outright record. But a record is not the end of the story.
The multihull concept can be scaled up and the windsurfer can't. Boats of other sizes and for other uses benefit from YP/MI improvements, while an even faster windsurfer will remain stuck as a one person daysailing craft.

It'd be interesting to see a 60 ft windsurfer sailing against the ORMA 60 tris 🙂

Interesting perspective....so what it really breaks down to is what the control system is capable of. We probably won't see a 60' windsurfer because they're already terribly unstable - especially at those speeds! There is not a mechanical system that can respond quickly enough to keep the craft on it's toes...there's barely a human that can directly control a 10' version (or whatever) in the wind required to get it up to those speeds. The windsurfer is very refined to match the size and power to what a human can control but it's far too twitchy for a mechanical system to handle so it's size and efficiency is pretty limited.

The next problem is finding lower water resistance (smooth water and foils) and adequate wind power. If you can be more wind efficient and go faster with less wind, your chances of finding smooth water are much better - not to mention finding weather windows of opportunity is much easier as well. The foil thing is becoming a pretty solid limitation in that most of the existing foils are having a hard time maintaining proper flow and lift through the water at 50+ knots.

So the next step to go faster than windsurfer is to build a more efficient craft - but it has to be larger - which means it's outside of human strength realm leading to mechanical control - which means it has to be more stable for the mechanics to handle it. This has lead us to the designs we see with MI and Sailrocket and they are still struggling with the foils. Maybe a planing version of these guys with a vertical fin (in the spirit of the windsurfer) might be the ticket? They'll loose some efficiency and have to sail in stronger breeze - but maybe they can maintain control.

Hey sorry I've missed the discussion as I'm a windsurfer who's done a fair bit of slalom and course racing. Steve that's cool to hear that Formula gear is that fast at all points of sail as I've held off getting such gear as after trying one once it was just such hard work sailing with an 11 meter sail!

I remember when the tornado worlds were here in Bermuda, though before the spinikars were allowed we could quite easily beat them on slalom gear on reaches, probably not upwind though.

The problem with windsurfers are that weight and size give a huge advantage, so the speeds Finian Maynard gets are way off what an average sailor gets. Skill and gear also are really important so that a smaller sailor can go fairly fast but, then they need a custom board with a flatter rocker as most smaller slalom boards are built as super high wind boards for bigger sailors! But in the end size is what counts, so you'll never see a world record being set by a 5'6" 140lb guy!

The average speed of general windsurf gear has dropped these days as freeride easy to sail boards and no cam sails become the fashion these days. The race boards from the early to mid nineties were the stuff, but it made learning to gybe so difficult for the average weekend windsufer that many people were put off the sport!

But it's great to see speed is back on the agenda, I'm hoping to dust off my old custom Van en Berg 8.8 and try out a new 6.2 Neil pryde race sail to see what I can get on the GPS. Also for reference in 12-14 knts of wind I'm getting about 23mph on the reaches. I'm on a 7.5 meter sail which is pretty small for that stuff, should be on a 9.0 for the board I was using. But looking at that Fanatic link, those guys were going between 28 and 29kts in 12-14 kts of wind which is amazing and shows the increased efficiency of the newer windsurfing gear. Here is a link to a windsurfing speed website for GPS users.

http://www.gps-speedsurfing.com/gps.asp

Anyway I've yet to get a go on the tornado, I'll have to get around to it, but I'm looking forward to seeing what it is like.

Scott

The main difference is conceptual.

Windsurfers are a minimalistic solution, with the crew providing most of the stability, rig and directional control. This concept is very complicated to scale up without giant human clones...

The proa's stability is provided by both geometry and crew weight, with separate rigging and control systems, so its concept may be scaled up with relative ease and also used in other multihulls.

I'd love to see a mega proa on foils for offshore racing.

maybe less drag