Well, if an older boat, UV, weather, water usually takes a toll and the gel might be chalky etc...so for me, paint is the solution. Gel coat has always been (for me) kind of iffy, so for large areas, I resort to reglassing/sanding and painting the thing--but that is me, and I am far from an expert. It is tedious and a pia, but done right, works well.
You wan it bad enough, you can find the way, and do not be afraid to ask and improvise...no doubt you have the weather on your side and can work leisurely...green I am, with envy.
Edited by BobBill on Feb 15, 2014 - 10:18 AM.
Hey Tom and Kevin, i just remembered that I posted a picture of my rehabilitated P218 on this website. It's in the album section next to PCAT album. It's the same one i used to sleep under when I kept it on the beach in Newport at 43rd st. Skip's new sail plan rocks. the boat is blazingly fast, much to the dismay of the lame harbor patrol dudes.
Wow Jack that boat looks really great, I would like to see it! I am in San Diego but come up to NP off and on. So did you get a ticket for speeding??? We did when we where teens also got pulled over for watersking behind a P-cat which is possible if you get a running start, double ski's...when your 130 Lbs! I love the fat head main I was going to put one of those on my 5.2 but to much $$.
Looking at that rig reminded me of a few other P-cat things. I always loved the Nacra 18 Sq. (except the 10' beam and trailering) they just looked awesome and I liked solo sailing. We actually made a few 10' beam boats, (I am almost sure one went to Hawaii, great for the high wind) cut and added a mold in the center, don't really remember the outcome with the exception of being very heavy trying to get the strength up, of course it would be a loss in light wind but.....
I told Owen I wanted to make a single hander and we took a old boat sloped the sterns off and opened the cockpits up going straight back. I don't think we ever finished it.
My feeling on Gelcoat VS paint I am really with Bob paint it! , Gelcoat is designed for use in molds without exposure to air and if sprayed it would have to be completely sanded out. I have painted at least 12 boats Roll and brush and most people think they are sprayed, the new products are really nice to use and really flow out. Only thing is prepping the non skid, a lot of times over time someone waxed the non skid and it is hard to get out of the nooks and crannies. The P-cat non skid is light in the first place and painting it makes it slick. I painted my original Flipper from childhood (also a Newport Boats same non skid) and it was a greased pig which just added to the fun. In fact I did a total refurbishment for my kids on that boat and made a big rig which Skip E made the monster sail for! Gotta go, everyone have a great weekend! This makes me want to get another boat!
kevin, I think i remember that p-cat with the chopped off or open sloping backwards cut transom in owens yard. Hey, how about that little liquor store next door? i used to get beers there at 16 after pop riveting some masts! I thougt that the 10ft wide catamaran was the one that went to Hawaii/maui? matter of fact, I think i saw it back in 1986 at one of those kaneohe beach parks back then. i kind of thought that it went to Tom Benedict because his name resounds in my mental tapes of that time and Skip mentioned his name. Not sure though Tom if that's correct. Anyway, Kevin, Owen left me with a tornado main that i basically consigned to a guy up in Vancouver, I was just happy guys still sail project Tornados. He also left me a Nacra 5.8 main that i'll give to you if you can use it. call me 213-440-4419 next time you're thinking about coming up and I'll show you the P_CAT. it's mast up on Lido in the antibes yard. maybe we'll go outside and charge around on it.
Man, this is great information. Thanks, everyone!
Not sure I've got the 10' wide P-Cat. I'll go out and measure it tomorrow, but I'm almost certain it's narrower than that.
And thanks for the advice on paint vs. gel coat. Since the non-skid is so cracked through, I'll probably have to grind it off, anyway, just to make sure I get to the bottom of all the cracks. Far as I can tell the underlying glass is fine, but that'll give me a chance to inspect it, anyway.
On painting, I've read here that people have added grit to urethane paint to paint on non-skid after the decks have been done with smooth coats. Is this how you'd go about restoring the non-skid on the deck? Or would you use adhesive tape or something else that could be renewed every few seasons?
Jack, if you have any close-up pictures of your P2-18 deck, I'd love to see how you've got your running rigging set up. It seems like each generation of the P-Cat went through some pretty drastic changes in rigging. I'm still puzzling over the P3's jib sheets. If there's one thing with the P-Cat that drives me a little nuts, it's all the lines crossing the deck. I'd love to change how the jib sheets are done so they stay clear.
Thanks again!
Tom
Tom, I am no expert, but if those cracks are surface (gel) I would gouge them out with a a bit with a sharp tool and fill with good epoxy paste out of can, tube or made up, smoothing as much as possible and paint...
Matching paint might be more difficult than the filler...and not worry about it.
Once the boat is operating the degree of deck work will become more apparent. But, that is me and my two small boat(s), and your situation is likely not similar.
I was lucky, insofar as the cracks on my Kite dinghy were surface and not on molded anti skid.
On the cat hull, I had some fixing on the anti-skid and just filled and so on, forgetting about the looks, and it worked out...but that is me.
Good luck with the rigging...simple works.
Edited by BobBill on Feb 16, 2014 - 04:49 AM.
Hey Kevin and Jack! I too worked for Owen and Tom Carson (before their divorce) down on Tustin Av. I stayed with Owen for a couple years building and racing P-Cats. Bought mine # 202 from Jim Edwards(Edwards Cinema) but couldn't afford the payments so he reposessed it. We also built Kites and Flippers. We would work on customer's boats during the day then up to CM to layup P-cats at night. Raced on most weekends, then of course the London Bridge Regatta, San Felipe, Malibu etc,etc. Warren Miller raced against us for a while then moved to Tornados. I'm still building boats, albeit very large grand prix racers. (I own New England Boatworks) Learned about work ethic from Owen. He was a workaholic. Sadly passed away recently. I inherited his P-cat powerboat conversion; "Stealthcat". Cost more to get it back East than it's worth but nostalgia prevailed. Great to see the pic.s Kevin
Hi, If you have any photos of Owens SlealthCat can you post them or email them to
I was talking to Owen a couple of years back and he was going to send me some photo but I never got them.
I have an old P-Cat that I would like to build into a power cat.
Thanks OssaMAR
The closest answer I can find about Hobie Alter's StealCat is that Hobie Alter came up with some innovative ideas that are still in use and being expanded on with more modern boatbuilding techniques and materials. Give it a thought every time you SHEET IN and fly a hull!
In his interview he talked about a guy from Florida who wanted to build a 25' catamaran with more accomodations for weekending. Guess who that was, Bill Higgins, who was the Southeast Rep for Coast Catamarans.
When Hobie Alter was unsuccessful in getting Hobie Cat to build a bigger catamaran, he started Force Engineering with John and JV Cloud and began building the Stiletto 27' in 1976.
Bill Higgins left the company to start ATR (Advanced Technologies and Research) and used his expertise in building Epoxy/Nomex panels and aircraft parts to make it a worldwide enterprise including building many components for military and commercial jets and helicopter blades made from carbon composites. Bill retired and sold the business to AAR which is still manufacturing composites in St. Pete, FL.
History of Stiletto & Force Engineering
Force Engineering was started in june of 1975 with the beginning of work on the factory proper. In the year and a half previous J.V. Cloud, retired manufacturer and builder, had been working with Bill Higgins on the final design and engineering of Stiletto.
Stiletto was conceived by Bill Hiiggins while working for Hobie Cat as their Eastern U.S. sales representative. Bill detected the necessity for a boat that was a natural step for the 70,000 plus Hobie Cat enthusiasts. A boat that would allow them the performance they were accustomed to, while giving them a dry ride and room for the rest of the family while carrying a head, galley and bunks for limited cruising. The boat had to be trailerable in order to have the utility necessary for the design concept. Because of the readily trailerable feature the boat had to be light enough so that the average couple could assemble or disassemble it without help. For this reason it was necessary to utilize a construction material that was lighter than the currently available polyester/fiberglass construction methods.
The material selected was preimpregnated epoxy fiberglass, cloth (prepreg) which is a thermoset epoxy that is kept frozen to retard the catalyzation process until time for use. The prepreg is placed over a nylon nomex honeycomb core, baked at 260 degrees in a 30x14x7 foot oven for an hour and a half under constant vacuume. This produces a light-weight composite structure laminate that is not only incredibly strong, but will float more than it,s own weight because of trapped airspace in the laminate, and is fire resistant. The composite structure has been used extensively in the aerospace industry for twenty years, but Force Engineering was the first and to date the only manufacturer to produce boats from the material.
With the final design and engineering done a prototype boat was produced using wet layup and honeycomb in order to prove the theory. The prototype was a success and the building of the factory was begun. Originally the financial backing of the Stiletto project was to be handled by a syndicate of Florida investors. Unfortunately the members suffered severely in the real estate crunch of 1975 and had to withdraw their support from the project. J.V. Cloud elected to finance the project in order to make it go. The constuction of the plant facility went smoothly although the constuction of the large epoxy high tempature tools ran afoul. Force was being aided by the largest plastics manufacturer in the U.S. by representatives who were on hand for the building of the tools. Unfortunatly the methodes that they recommended were incorrect and the first set of tooling, following two months work and expenditure of thousnads of dollars was a loss. There was some recovery from the plastics company, but the loss set the production of Stiletto far behind schedule and ate up much of the monies avalable for the start up costs. With new tooling built two boats were produced, one for shows and the other for testing. The boats took rigors of testing with flying colors. After several months of testing production was begun.
In the time that followed, Stiletto met with tremendous acceptance on the market. The boat was incredibly fast and impressively stylish. With much of the start up costs depleted with the tooling failures little money was available for the advertising and as such put Stiletto in a position of not generating enough sales. Conflicts between J.V. Cloud and Bill Higgins, stemming from differences in what appropriate business ethics entail, brought about the departure of Mr. Higgins in 1977. Since that time Force Engineering has continued to grow - changing sail makers in early 1978 which among other changes increased Stiletto's performance.
The boat has proven itself well - over 120 unites are sailing safely from Hawaii to the Virgin Islands, Mexico to Canada. The market for Stiletto is there, but needs a comprehensive marketing plan to stimulate a smooth production schedule year round.
Stiletto photos and info found at: http://stiletto.wildjibe.com/
Edited by scubasail on Jun 09, 2014 - 08:47 AM.
Thanks for the info.
What I am looking for is the boat built by Owen Minney in Idaho.
It is a modified Pacific Cat, that Owen had install at the time I spoke to him a Honda 40hp
FWIW, P Cat on eBay from northwest area, as I recall.
I think if I went for one, I would refit it to make trailer launch easier...no beaches or storage here. As noted boats with decent care will last forever and sail like new...Pyle designs were built to last, as my Kite demonstrates daily.
Keep us posted. Nice to see and hear of old boats going...
BobBill, mind describing what you'd do to make trailer launches easier?
I've got a first generation P-Cat on a trailer. It's... more of a handful than my old Prindle 16. Some of that I can ascribe to the larger size, but some of it is just awkward. If you already have a laundry list of things you'd change, I'd love to pick your brains.
Tom
Hi Kevin, It's been a long time. I believe I was the class President when your family started racing P cats. I can shed some light on the standard P cat, P2/18, P3/18. About 1980 I was racing Tornados as well as P cats. Owen and I were close friends right up to his ending ( he died on my 70th birthday). Anyhow, about 1980 Owen had a bunch of Tornado stuff around his yard and decided to try to update the P cat sail plan. The P2/18 was born. It made the P cat competitive with the more modern boats in less than 12 knots of wind, but was a real handful in more wind especially with Owen's light crew weight. Every year Yachting magazine would hold a "one design regatta" and in 1981 it was going to be held on Lake Ponchirane by New Orleans. We knew there was a good chance of some serious wind so , I think I suggested,. a high aspect smaller sail plan. We headed to Louisiana with a Standard P Cat sailed by Craig Greeves and Dan Goodwin, a P Cat 2/18 sailed by, I think, Larry Harteck and crew, and John Langton and I sailing the P cat 3/18. I don't remember how we finished other than we had a great time in the speed trials with Jeff Silver on the helm and John Langton and I on the wire of the P3/18 in about 20 kts. of wind. Owen was on a chase boat cheering us on.
kevinbhornby wrote: Wow Jack that boat looks really great, I would like to see it! I am in San Diego but come up to NP off and on. So did you get a ticket for speeding??? We did when we where teens also got pulled over for watersking behind a P-cat which is possible if you get a running start, double ski's...when your 130 Lbs! I love the fat head main I was going to put one of those on my 5.2 but to much $$.
Looking at that rig reminded me of a few other P-cat things. I always loved the Nacra 18 Sq. (except the 10' beam and trailering) they just looked awesome and I liked solo sailing. We actually made a few 10' beam boats, (I am almost sure one went to Hawaii, great for the high wind) cut and added a mold in the center, don't really remember the outcome with the exception of being very heavy trying to get the strength up, of course it would be a loss in light wind but.....
I told Owen I wanted to make a single hander and we took a old boat sloped the sterns off and opened the cockpits up going straight back. I don't think we ever finished it.My feeling on Gelcoat VS paint I am really with Bob paint it! , Gelcoat is designed for use in molds without exposure to air and if sprayed it would have to be completely sanded out. I have painted at least 12 boats Roll and brush and most people think they are sprayed, the new products are really nice to use and really flow out. Only thing is prepping the non skid, a lot of times over time someone waxed the non skid and it is hard to get out of the nooks and crannies. The P-cat non skid is light in the first place and painting it makes it slick. I painted my original Flipper from childhood (also a Newport Boats same non skid) and it was a greased pig which just added to the fun. In fact I did a total refurbishment for my kids on that boat and made a big rig which Skip E made the monster sail for! Gotta go, everyone have a great weekend! This makes me want to get another boat!
dynopaul,
I'm not sure which part of your post is quoted and which is new. Welcome to TheBeachcats.com, there is some good P-Cat info there just want to make it clear who said what.
DamonLinkous wrote: dynopaul,
I'm not sure which part of your post is quoted and which is new. Welcome to TheBeachcats.com, there is some good P-Cat info there just want to make it clear who said what.
Hi, guess I don't really know how to post on this forum, I just thought I needed to add my two cents on the P Cat as it got me started competitive sailing.
dynopaul
It was a great two-cents! 😀
When you click on the "quote" button the previous text is surrounded by markers like
]quote=DamonLinkous[ ...... ]/quote[
(i made the brackets backwards so they would show up)
Don't type your reply inside those brackets, but outside, usually after the closing quote. That way the quoted part is identified and separated from your new reply.
I've edited your last post above so you see the affect.
Wow! I googled "P-Cat" and found this! I have a P-Cat. It's a 2-18 though. Which means the mast and sails are identical to a Tornado version 1(pre spinnaker). My boat was built by Owen Minney for himself. He built this one with a THIN layup and with a serious focus on it being lightweight. I sail it regularly and it is the fastest cat in my harbor. Outperforming F-18's, 5.8's, 5.2's and Hobies. It's really nice to see so many people interested in these cats. I know quite a bit about these boats.. if anyone has any questions
db2-18,
Thanks for offer for information.
I'm in Utah and have a P-cat, Ser. # P-54.
It sports a 10 ft. boom as I recall along with the original metal dagger boards, winch up-haul, etc.
I completely shredded and blew out the original main some years ago while sailing and scuba diving in Mexico.
Bummer.
Not finding a replacement anywhere, I contacted Minneys in California on their website and found a used mono mail that had a somewhat comparable luff, leach and the foot dimension of 10 feet.
This used sail form Minneys though a foot shorter up the mast and six inch shorter on the boom would work if I ever get around to changing the bolt rope or putting in sail slugs, that wold fit the mast sail slot, but....
I've half thought about cutting down the boom and finding a Hobie 16 or some other main that would fit the vertical dimension of the boom., just to get it back out onto the water
I hate to see the boat just sitting on the beach....for these many years since the Mexico incident....though I can tell you it doesn't launch like a modern and more lightweight cat.
That's probably why I sail my Nacra 5.2, Supercat 17 or Freestyle 474 and never seem to get around to doing something about the P-cat's main or spending the $$$ the buy a new replacement.
Oh, don't get real excited about the other boats.
I got them all years ago in a "package deal" that gave me 20 catamarans and a few monos like sunfish and Lido 14s for $100 each.
I sailed and and enjoyed all of those boats, learning to sail and eventually selling them for a bit more than I paid.
That finally gave me enough $$ to keep a few of the cats and purchase a Stiletto 27 that was much better for off shore and coastal sailing in Mexico's mainland and crossing to the Baja, where we goofed off, beach and boat camped, while scuba diving and snorkeling.
Any thoughts from you or others on what to do for the P-cat's blown out and shredded main??
Edited by scubasail on Aug 06, 2014 - 02:01 PM.
A couple of thoughts. Why shorten the boom? Slugs can work, so can hook and loop separately or i9n combination with slugs. Just have to sew or grommet to luff.
I'd find a tornado or F-18 rig then just use the sails made for that. With my rig, Tornado, it is a wicked amount of fun and blazing fast! Or you could get a quote from a sail maker for a new sail..
benedict wrote: I just picked up a Pacific Cat. It's in "project boat" shape, so it's a bit of an ugly duckling at the moment. But as soon as I have it sea-worthy I can provide more information (and photos!)
Tom
I had hull number 417. The black one with a white deck. It was a 1969 that was previously owned by Paul Allen and then Les Vessel. It won 3 D class Nationals. Great boat and I owned it for 28 years until someone stole it... Sad. So I just put the cherry main sail that I had made and only used about 5 times with the battens and boom still attached and Jib sail all in a nice sailbag that I had in the garage on the ads section. Don't Know what somebody would do with a stolen boat and not all the parts...
You have the parts. which saves much time and hassle, go for it. Look forward to the progress.
These boats were tanks, but I remember watching them sail right by an entire fleet of Nacras on Lake Havasu a long time ago. In light air they had the sail area to get them moving. We all just floated around getting burnt to a crisp until the wind finally filled in. They seemed like they were great family boats.
dg
The P-Cat was the first cat I ever sailed. The summer school I went to in Hawaii in '69 had 3. That's when I saw an H14. My instructor said it was a great little boat. I ended up buying one from Bob Holland in Va. Beach when I got back home. The rest is history.
dusty wrote: [quote=benedict]I just picked up a Pacific Cat. It's in "project boat" shape, so it's a bit of an ugly duckling at the moment. But as soon as I have it sea-worthy I can provide more information (and photos!)
Tom
I had hull number 417. The black one with a white deck. It was a 1969 that was previously owned by Paul Allen and then Les Vessel. It won 3 D class Nationals. Great boat and I owned it for 28 years until someone stole it... Sad. So I just put the cherry main sail that I had made and only used about 5 times with the battens and boom still attached and Jib sail all in a nice sailbag that I had in the garage on the ads section. Don't Know what somebody would do with a stolen boat and not all the parts...
I read Warren Millers "Tour of the bay" if anybody can find that it's about the first time he ever sailed a Pacific Cat or maybe any cat. He took his wife out on it and it's funny! Willl make you blow coffee out your nose onto your key board if you can find it.
Edited by dusty on Aug 17, 2016 - 08:09 AM.
Husband has been sailing all his life, and windsurfing. I bought him a P-Cat for his birthday in 2007. The person I bought it from lovingly restored it, and knew how to flip and right it on a lake. The first lesson he wanted to teach us on a lake was just how to do such a thing. Swim it around and point it into the wind, throw ropes over the lifted side of the boat, climb up the lifted hull, pull on ropes and rigging while bouncing the mast. The wind blows under the sail as you keep bouncing it. The water bounces off and then the boat rights itself. The hard part of all of this, is the boat taking off without you or it falling the other way; as well as you needing to do things quickly to let the wind spill off the sails so you can collect your things, your composure and your pride. Obviously, you won't be able to right the boat without some wind blowing but we all know it doesn't take a lot with the sail area of a P-Cat. This is a lot harder to do with one person but he could. 🙂 P.S. I would post pics but I don't know how.
Edited by eulipion on Aug 17, 2017 - 05:57 PM.
Aloha from Oahu,
I just purchased a p-cat with a friend with the hopes of learning to sail it, but we know nothing! What are the best resources to learn to rig it and sail it? Please help 🙂
Aloha from Oahu,
I just purchased a p-cat with a friend with the hopes of learning to sail it, but we know nothing! What are the best resources to learn to rig it and sail it? Please help 🙂
Been hovering here for some time.
The names Carter Pyle and Newport Boats (Costa Mesa, CA and Virginia) stick in head...Newport made the spendid Kite, Mobjack, and the popular P-Cat cat. Not sure who designed the rig, could have been Pyle.
This was back in the late 60s and in 70s, when the popular Seaman designed wood Malibu Outriggers ran off the sand in Malibu. Early fiberglass days...heavy rigs...but fast. And, as I recall, the rig sported on of the early fully battened mains.
No tramp, but solid deck. Rock solid as memory serves.
If older pics are avail, please publish here.
Also, I have a glass MO, with 6061 and SS, Harkens tramp and mahogany decking, and the best carbon spar rigging with new 220 sq foot sail and trailer I am willing to part with...just getting too old to sail here...boat is a fargin kick to sail and a rocket as is. Pics available and might deliver...depending.
I got interested in cats at a boat show when Hobie Alter was selling his new 12' cat model. I saw the video and was hooked. I spent the entire weekend with Hobie, manning his booth for him when he had to leave. By the end of the show I was ready to buy the San Antonio franchise (three boats) without ever having sailed one. At the end of the show, Hobie told me a little shamefacedly that he had to sell the franchise to a local boat dealer who had lots of display room and experience. I understood and we parted ways.
Not long after that, I was in a new seafood restaurant opened by a Californian name Gary Argenbreit. He had pictures on the wall of him sailing his Pacific Cat in Hawaii or California, flying a hull and towing a skier. I was more hooked than on the Hobie because of the advanced features like the hard deck, cubbies, foot wells and stabilizing dagger boards. Not to mention the full battened sails and self-furling foresail. I arranged to buy the boat and sailed it in Texas Lakes for years. I had to leave town and wound up selling it. I'd swear it is the one in the pictures at the Austin boat sales, but mine had a white top over yellow hulls.
I used to tow skiers myself and would have the boat start from being tied to the end of a T-head wooden pier at the summer home of my banker. All went well until we started off under full sail and a nice wind (but my friend forgot to untie the boat). That powerful little cat tore the end of the pier off and started towing it along with the skier. :-O I spent the rest of the summer rebuilding the pier by resetting the timbers into a rocky bottom of the lake.
It may have been too heavy to easily work as a beach cat, but our lakes all have concrete boat ramps where you can simply back the boat trailer down until the boat floats. I don't know why it didn't stay popular as a inland lake boat. I still love that boat.