Let me open the can of worms.
My boat is a Stealth 'R'. It is not compliant with the box rules because it predates it (for example the hull length is 5.03m, 3cms longer than 5 meters). However this boat has been grandfathered as is into the F16 class, so I can sail it as a F16 with its original set of non compliant sails (sail area is similar, but the distribution is different as the jib is larger than allowed by the box rules):
Formula 16 foundation boats
; meaning that, despite the fact that they are dispensated for their non compliance, they have become part of the (closed) Formula 16 class. Their status is permanent; althought it is lost when the boat in question is no longer compliant with their confirmed (class) setup as fixed on the date 1 januari 2002.
Now, if I put a larger main (compliant with the box rule, but no longer compliant with the original class setup) the letter of the rule says this boat is a F16 no longer! This seem a little harsh as I plan to sail solo and losing 1.5m of sail area can't be good. However pushing the limit and sailing duo with a big main *and* the non-compliant jib would be cheating for sure. So I'd like clarification from the class authority. Ideally if the rule could be amended with something like:
As far as I understand there is quite a lot of these boats around sailed with a 'big' main, and some even won previous competitions, so it should not be an issue right?
If you will permit a non-official reply:
If you change the sailplan in any way so the boat no longer measures in under the original one design rule (Stealth R), and the sailplan dont measure in cleanly under F16 rules either, it just dont measure in. Mixing sails from the old and the
new
sailplan is not something I can find support for in the rules and personally I dont like that idea either.
In my opinion one either goes F16 and is compliant, or one stays with the one-design concept. Mixing and matching belongs to racing under non-standard SCHRS ratings.
The 3cm extra on a grandfathered boat is in my private opinion no problem. I'll be happy to race you.
Just my humble opinion..
From a personal point of view if you enter an event single handed with a F16 main that's fine, If you enter an event two up with original jib and main that is also fine. However, as you've probably guessed you can't have the cake and eat it.... <img src=
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Yup I figure that is the general view, converting the sail plan to be F16 box rule compliant is something that people have done before and it seems to be fair, reasonable and de facto accepted by everybody. However, the rules says what the rule says, if I change the sail plan I'm no longer sailing a rule abiding boat.
Hence my request for an official blessing. I'd like the possibility to switch my sail plan to a F16 one, so I can stay somewhat competitive with the more recent boats, without having to use a hacksaw to remove 3 centimeters out of my bow <img src=
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BTW, I've calculated the SCHRS rating of the Stealth 'R' solo configuration and it ends up at 1.03 with the small main and .995 with a F16 main. Quite a difference.
I see it as leaving yourself very open to protest under the rules I see above. Like a Mossie putting a bigger square top main on, or a superwing mast despite weighing consierabl less than class rules.
Come on Wouter, what was the thinking back then?
GC, what do you make out of it today? Is the grandfathered platform OK with a F16 sailplan?
Personally, I am fine with a grandfathered Stealth R platform and a F16 sailplan.
Rolf,
My personal view is that a grandfathered boat needs to meet the specs pertaining to the
boat at the time it was grandfathered. If it does not meet these specs it will be subject
to the F16 rules and will have to measure under these rules.
This is just my personal view. Anyone wanting an official ruling of a general or specific
case would need to email the GC stating the particulars of what they need the ruling on.
Following proper consideration of the particulars a ruling would be provided.
The grand plan is to include both the questions and answers on the F16 web site to help
others with similar questions.
Regards,
Phill
Whilst I find the idea of someone in the UK protesting a Stealth R + F16 main unimaginable, I think the rules are clear: a Stealth R with an F16 main does not meet the requirements for a foundation boat, and therefore does not meet the requirements for the Formula 16 class.
However, it is within the constraints of the
Open Formula 16
class, which means that
the head of a local Formula 16 class organisation may give dispensation
to allow it to become part of the Open Formula 16 class. Now, I would have thought that it should require the local F16 association to give the dispensation, rather than just the head, but it doesn't, and I guess I'm the head, so: dispensation given (this gets reviewed yearly).
On this basis, I'm firmly of the opinion that we should run UK F16 events on the basis of the Open rules. I thought there was a rule that the Global Challenge needed to be run according to Formula 16 rather than Open Formula 16, but I can't find it so I think it's down to the organiser.
If you're really concerned, you could make a proposal to modify the rules to specifically allow a Stealth R + F16 main sailed 1-up to be considered a
foundation
boat. In my opinion is a perfectly reasonable suggestion: it allows the Stealth R platform to continue to feed the class.
Have you actually measured the boat? My understanding was that the very first Stealth F16 came out of the same mould, and I wasn't actually aware that the length changed when the new shape came out. A tape measure might reveal that this is all a non-issue.
Paul
Pepin,
Bring the boat to Grafham for the open and I will FORMALLY measure the length of the boat (it will not take very long).
Paul will also (barring disasters) be at Grafham and so we can discuss the issue (if there is one) at that time.
If I was going to optimise my Mozzie platform for F16 I would add the lead, unfortunately the amount of lead I would have to add is about double the amount allowed under the F16 rules so it isn't viable for me because I would end up with an illegal boat anyway.
FAQ is a good idea.
Darryn
Mozzie
1782
Section 5: F16 Grandfathered, Dispensated Boats and Foundation Boats
5.1 Dispensated boats and Formula 16 foundation boats
5.1.1 The Formula 16 authority may give dispensations to boats that do not fully comply with the Formula 16 rules. These dispensations are limited in duration and are reviewed yearly. Boats that are dispensated do not become part of the Formula 16 class but of the Open Formula 16 class instead.
5.1.2 The Foundation boats Taipan 4.9 (with F16 spi) and Stealth (R) have the special status of
Formula 16 foundation boats
; meaning that, despite the fact that they are dispensated for their non compliance, they have become part of the (closed) Formula 16 class. Their status is permanent; althought it is lost when the boat in question is no longer compliant with their confirmed (class) setup as fixed on the date 1 januari 2002.
6.1 Grandfathering of boats into the open Open Formula 16 class
6.1 The head of a local Formula 16 class organisation may give dispensation (called grandfathering) to a particular design or class and allow them to become part of the Open Formula 16 class under the following conditions.
6.1.1 The design may not have hulls longer than 5,30 mtr.(17ft 4 inch.)
6.1.2 The design must have a rated jib sail area which is less than 4,25 sq.mtr. and more than 2,75 sq. mtr. (this rule does not apply to single handed setups)
6.1.3 Both the SCHRS (ISAF) and Texel rating of the design must be equal to or
slower
than the rating assigned to the Formula 16 class.
6.1.4 When grandfathered, the designs are allowed to race against fully compliant Formula 16 designs in declared
Open Formula 16
races.
With the new main sail the Stealth R single handed still has a schrs higher (0.983) than the F16, so the head of the local F16 association should have no reason to exclude the boats.
To prevent cheating using the grandfather rule.
The grandfather rule is there to allow an easy access to F16 sailing / events using very similar but non-compliant boats. In smaller (local) events it was envisioned that this allowance would be applied very leniently = open F16 class. However, at important events like the Global Challenge the rules would be applied more stricktly = (closed) F16 class.
As an onwer of a non compliant boat you take a small risk; the head of the local organisation or the board of a local class association may not renew your dispensatie next year. But apart from that you are pretty save. Once dispensation is given, it will be valid for the remainder of the season except at very important F16 events (2 a year ?)
Personally, I wouldn't worry about 3 cm additional hull length. I don't think any F16 sailor would protest you for it at any event short of the GC. And even then the local class organisation may choose to protect you by issueing a dispensation when you are less performant overall due to other reasons like being overweight, having less sailarea etc.
Wouter
Pepin, I'm not sure how the French measure their boats <img src=
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/>but having measured your boat this afternoon and double checked it, Nick and I reckon its 5.003 metres long, ie 3mm over length and not 3 cm's. We measured both Nicks and mine as well and they all are about 2 - 4 mm over the 5.00m mark.
We also measured a latest version of the Stealth and its about 5mm under length ie 4.995 metre.
I have a possible theory on why you came to be 3cms over length, did you use the Dinghy Stores tape measure, it has an imperial measure on one side and a metric on the other, the imperial starts at Zero, the metric starts at 30mm, I'm not sure why but it does and I have seen this on similar tapes before. We just started from 1.00 metre to make absolutely sure.
So by my reckoning you can use a F16 sail and be totally compliant to fit within the rules,If your boat was one of the very early boats and not made by Stealth Marine, you may want to check the weight as they are right on the weight, perhaps even a kilo or two under. <img src=
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From my understanding the earlier masts were slightly softer than the later masts, you may perhaps want to consider moving the diamonds slightly foward to compensate.
Hey you got a lot of boat for your money, I reckon you will be up to speed pretty quick as you used to get your old Nacra shifting pretty well. <img src=
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Wayne,
that is excellent news. I can confirm officially at Grafham; I'll bring my spirit levels and Tape measure.
In my opinion (=same as I was the class chairman) is that 5.003 mtr is rounded off to 5.00 mtr as the rules allow and therefor your boat is F16 compliant with respect to hull length. It is the reason why the class rule specify 5.00 mtr and not 5.000 mtr ! Lets call it a building margin
Wouter
I have never measured anything, I got the 5.03m figure from some old F16 pages , and the SCHRS rating for a Stealth and Stealth 'R' do measure the boat at 5.05.
I assumed those specs where correct, if they are not, good.
BTW Wayne, I left before the end of the first race this morning cause I had to go home early, but you all raced the wrong course. You started with a sausage followed by a triangle and the SI call for triangle first...
You mean you do not sail W/L ?
You mean you do not sail W/L ?
Sailing instruction for club racing at DWSC on Sunday morning calls for triangle/sausage, twice. Don't ask me why.
But we know why - the first word begins with 'F' and the second word is 'Fifteens' <img src=
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Now now boys F Fifteens is only a small part of the reason, one course for all doesn't always suit everybody, but when you are a club you try and cater for a very widely different number of classes with minimum resources.
Datchet tries to cater for all by having the first race W/L and the next race a mix of Triangle followed by sausage.
Seems to work, they get typically good numbers even on a cold wet morning like this morning.
As to doing it wrong, a certain participant did Triangle followed by sausage and was told he was wrong as the other cats did sausage triangle, I still came last so I'm just even more confused now. <img src=
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Datchet tries to cater for all by having the first race W/L and the next race a mix of Triangle followed by sausage.
Seems to work, they get typically good numbers even on a cold wet morning like this morning.
As to doing it wrong, a certain participant did Triangle followed by sausage and was told he was wrong as the other cats did sausage triangle, I still came last so I'm just even more confused now. <img src=
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At Grafham the Fast cats and the Asym mono's sail W/L all the time. Slow cats and other Mono's sail around the cans
Yeah, don't think we can blame the FFs for the course - cats alternate between W/L and triangle-sausage, wheareas FFs always do triangle-sausage (I think), as opposed to the asymmetrics who always do W/L.
Only problem with alternating is that noone can ever remember which one it is...
Who's coming to the club championship next weekend?
Paul
Now, if I put a larger main (compliant with the box rule, but no longer compliant with the original class setup) the letter of the rule says this boat is a F16 no longer! This seem a little harsh as I plan to sail solo and losing 1.5m of sail area can't be good.[...]
Fast forward two years: Issue resolved.
A F16 council resolution is giving all pre-2002 Stealth hulls a pass on their length (recently measured at 5.02m on my boat).
This is all playing in my hand right in time as I now have the psychological advantage to be the owner of the longest F16 at Como: My boat is longer than yours <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
Damn! There goes my one opportunity of not coming last....by protesting your length at the end of the regatta <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
Guess I'll have to find some other technicality now.......
<img src="<>/shocked.gif" alt="shocked" title="shocked" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="<>/blush.gif" alt="blush" title="blush" height="15" width="15" />