Spin Take down

I've always run mine up the port side of the spin. Sometimes tiny friction burns can show up. Is it worse that that?

It is a little worse, Even found 2 small (maybe 1 cm) holes in the area. All our patches are on the starboard side so not sure if I could run it up the port side.

No matter what you do, you will get friction between the retrieval line and the cloth in the spi when you douse on

the wrong

side. Pulling the spi down only on

the right side

will minimize this, but limit your strategy and tactics.

We have found that stripping the cover off the part of the line running _inside_ the spi when dousing to be a good measure. Dont remove more than you absolutely have to, becouse handling the stripped line is a bother. If you decide to strip, err on the short side first so you dont take off more cover than you need to. If you find it difficult to handle the stripped part of the line, try using some tight fitting garden gloves with rubber palms.

When we discussed this issue one or two years ago, different spi cloths, lines and snuffers was also mentioned as a source of burn holes and marks on the spi.

I'm using Dyneema now and I must say it seems better for the spin. It's quite an expensive line though. What you can do is use it for the part that retrieves the spin, then sew a normal line to it.

Regards,
Gill

Dyneema or swiftcord ?

Wouter

I'll taper your spin halyard for you if you want. all you have to do is send it to me.
I'm going through sailing and sailing related stuff withdrawal <img src=

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I changed my halyard to pure dyneema (6mm without core) and like it much better than the one I had before. no more holes from friction in the gennacker. the line was quite slippery at the beginning but after a while it is now easy to hold and very soft.

I pulled in a core at the place where the cleat holds the halyard. this way it is also easy to see that gennacker was fully hoisted.

To echo Andreas,

I'm using 4 mm plain dyneema for 4 years now and I'm still flying my 4 year old spinnaker. It is pretty much blown out by now, but the damage from the retrival line is minimal. I think I have about 15 small tape repaires in it. Mostly as a precaution as I also

repair

small marks to prevent them from ever growing into larger holes. I also found that the tape repair cuts down on new damage. The first few repairs you get quickly after that the tape itself seems to reinforce the problem spots.

Once a season I take my spi halyard off and wash it. This makes it clean and soft again and then reduced wear on the spi significantly. Other then that my spi halyard is out in the condition 6 months a year and will become hard with salt, sand and algae.

Wouter

It seems that my problem is worse when I have a sloppy retrieval i.e. the sail does not enter the bag smoothly. What I try to do is; bring the sail down to the mouth of the bag with as little pressure as possible, then, with one fast pull, the whole thing goes in.

In my experience it also helps to pull the retrieval line more or less tight before uncleating the top halyard.

Wouter

Wouter,

I'm also using pure Dyneema now (no outer core).
Very good for the spin, a little more difficult to hoist it, because it more slippery.

Regards,
Gill

Why don't you leave the outer core on where you will be handling it during the hoist ?

Wouter

I had trouble with every single set and takedown at a regatta this weekend, due completely because the halyard (with a cover on it) kept kinking up and jamming in the tramp gromets or clete. I had to stop pulling on the halyard, reach down and clear the kink, then pull the halyard up again. Same thing on the takedown, cost me a place a couple times, very frustrating.

If I just pull the core out of the coverd line, will the core work until I get the 6mm dyneema? Does the 6mm dyneema wear at the clete and does it hold in the clete without slipping? Anyone know how long the Blade Spin. halyard is? I'm guessing about 60-70 feet?

did you make sure you ran the halyard through multiple times to make sure the twists were out of it?
The same thing can happen with regular dyneema but not as easily. What kind of 6mm dyneema did you order?
The core of the line you are using (I think it may be the same as mine maybe? who knows) would work and if you do that you probably don't need to order any 6mm dyneema. I find that the core is or any dyneema is a little too slippery to pull on extcept for the last few feet when dousing (I have mine tapered at the snuffer end). The dyneema will wear quicker at the cleat than covered line.

Wash the line and run out all the twists properly and then fit it to the boat. DO NOT

bundle

it together like any sailors would between these operations and fitting it to the boat. This reintroduces the twists again.

The only exception is to

bundle

it up with figure 8 loops and not normal loops. Then the line can be fitted to the mast straight from the bundle without introducing any twists.

Another good modification is to replace the turning block on the trampoline by a steel ring. The steel rings allows the kinks to pass while a microblock doesn't. The kinks are only created in the slack portion of the halyard line and never in the tensioned portion. Bungee-ing the slack portion on the tramp will therefor work to reduce kinks and /or pull then out when they do form.

Alot can be done to have the setup be largely kink free and/or kink acceptant.

6 mm line is too thick for the spi halyard. It will be heavy and needlessly thick. 4 mm is enough of the line allows your hands to have some grib. The dyneema core is very slippery and I refuse to

hand

it as a crew. Best is too just use the unmodified line as a halyard and only strip some of the mantle off of the last few feet.

Wouter

Figure 8 loops? I think that also would introduce twist in the line, but two kinks running opposite each other so when you unfold the line it evens out.

If you want to store a line without twisting it, which cause all kind of trouble if you dont

unroll

the line, you should

fold

the line. In rock climbing 60 meter ropes are used, and to stop kinks from forming they are always folded when carried or stored.

If you look here, you get the idea, just scale the folds down to fit your length of line.

http://www.swcp.com/~nmmc/climbrocks/knots/butterfly_coil.GIF

Washing the line every fall when putting the boat in storage is a really good tip! Makes it last longer and it is nicer to handle afterwards.

Figure 8 loops are the way to go.

Sail on yachts quite a bit and using figure 8 method means the pit guy doesn't get any big tangles when dropping jib/spinnaker. Because the time it does tangle, is when you really don't want it to happen.

Ropes will naturally want to kink and twist. Just need to be aware of methods to minimise this.

Like I said, if you make the figure 8 loops you are making two twists in opposite directions for each loop. When you uncoil the rope, the twists cancels out each other and you hopefully have a length of line without twists. Folding the line dont introduce twist at all into the line.
Both my crew and I used do do a lot of rock and mountain climbing. Getting twist into the lines while climbing is outright dangerous, so the climbing community have developed ways to avoid that. Always folding the rope is the best way to avoid twists, barring putting the line into a rope-bag. We consequently always fold lines on our boat, and lock up the folded lines by doing some turns around the hoop and a a self-locking hitch. Quick, easy and relatively idiot-proof. Try it, and compare handling with figure-8 coils. The true test is coiling and uncoiling twin trapeze lines. If you can do that without twists and snarls you have a good method.

While talking about coiling and twists. When storing the SS rigging, we dont coil the wires but roll them up. When rigging the mast/boat, we dont uncoil the wires, but unroll them. This is another variation on the same problem, how to avoid twist and kinks.

I certainly will !

Looks like a better alternative.

Wouter

I had Pete hold one end and I ran the halyard all the way out to be sure there were no twists in it first, as I have done for the past 3 times rigging the boat, but after one or two spin. sets, it starts kinking up again, just one little kink is enough to stop it from running freely out through the tramp gromet or hang it up in a clete or worse yet, grabbing some other line on the tramp and causing a furball at the clete. I have an open carabiner clip at the back, not a micro block, the hangup comes at the tramp gromet usually, or the turning block on the front beam.

I have not yet bought any 6mm dyneema but I'm going to call today and ask about it. You think 4mm is fat enough to grab? I use rubber palm gloves so I'm not worried about slippage. Anyone know the length? Is 70' long enough?

My halyard is very new, so it's still stiff, maybe that's the problem, maybe if I wash it and drag it behind my car around town for a week...then wash it again... <img src=

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You need to work the rope trough many times to remove all kinks. Tie it to a post and start working vigorously down the length with both hands like

milking

the line, moving slowly towards the end. You need to do this at least three times, but for best results you should look at how many kinks you have removed from the line at the end. When you can do this along the whole length of the line without getting any snarls at the end you should be OK. At least this is my experience.

Funny that all lines I have bought over mail-order have come neatly coiled. The only way to treat these is first to 'unroll' the coil like you would do if it was on a cable-drum, and then go trough the above procedure. Strange that the guys who sell lines dont catch up and do this as they pull the line off the drum.

I learned that it is very hard to removed twists from a line but just running it out. When removing kinks from the anchor lines of our race course bouy I throw the lines in the water and then bundle them up nicely. This seems more effective then running them out.

I personally found 4 mm dyneema (with the other mantle still attached) to be enough for hoisting and retrieving the spi line. I do wear gloves, but these are just plain ones and even then I don't always wear them.

In the distant pasts I also have used 5 mm dyneema on my Prindle 18 with spinnaker and that is about as thick as you want to go. Then I used no gloves at all. 6mm seems excessive to me and I think Andreas only used 6mm dyneema because he strips the mantle off it, leaving about 3.5 to 4 mm of its core.

Note however that if you go for swiftcord or other core less lines that 4 mm may be to little as the line itself may be compressed as there is no core preventing this.

One of the things I liked about 4 mm dyneema is its price. It is so much inexpensive then all the swift cords etc.

If slippery lines are no problem for you (it definately is for me) then I would just go with Andreas suggestion (6mm and strip it all) or the suggestion by PTP (get 4 mm line and only stripped the mantle off the last few feet of the line to the top retrieval patch)

Wouter

Ok! Now I'm totally confused. Is dyneema a brand name or a type of material?

I'm considering:

Swiftcord-Maffoli, Dyneema sk-75 & Cordura blend, 4mm.

dyneema is a type of material. If you are looking at the swiftcord stuff, check out 3/16 apex. It feels thicker than it is but is also a single braid dyneema/polypro hybrid line which works well and is cheaper than swiftcord/newswift.. etc.
3/16 is the biggest you would want though.

Thanks! That's what I'm gonna do.

btw- How much slack do you have in your halyard? When the spin is up and locked in place, how much is lying on the tramp?

I can't remember the length- if I ever really knew it to start with. Start with a longish length and then see how much slack you have. Cut a foot or two off until you feel like it is right. If you use a single braid and haven't tapered it then cutting a few feet off at a time is no problem. The length of my halyard seems about right, but there are different ways to run the halyard of course. I have mine off the boat and could measure it- just give me another 2 weeks and I'll get back to you <img src=

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