any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes

I would like to see a cross between the M-20 and N-20. Wide, but not a uni-rig (for distance).
Stronger than an M-20 for repeated beach landings, but lighter than an N-20.
Some way to shorten sail in distance race when foul weather strikes.

Under $20,000 USD with basic equipment

Blade 20..... at 10' wide, 400 lbs, carbon mast and beams...

Matt? Please? For us fat guys?

Eric,

make it 8 foot wide (easier trailering/assembly), put two feet wings on either side, alu beams but carbon mast and make it 330lbs (still buildable in vinylester/glass/foam or even plywood). Put something akin to the Tornado rig on it (or use a Tornado rig), and you have a fast package for the heavyweights.

I'll put up with the extra setup hassle to have the hulls farther apart.

Gone are the days when I have two hours in the afternoon for a quick sail. A kitchen pass may earn me a weekend or two of racing, so an extra 1/2 hour on each side (setup, breakdown) doesn't seem that outrageous.

If there is a way to ensure the hulls stay true and parallel with quick installation, that would be best

Same here, i actually take the extra day away from work to do nothing but drive and set up, it keeps the stress level down and gives plenty of time for messing about with the boat.

Sounds good Rolf . 330 Lbs w wings .

The T is 370 --close enough to race evan up .

How wide do wings need to be to = the advantage 10 ft beam provides . My guess is you would need to calc hull weight plus the beam measurement difference and arrive at an equivilant {theoretically} wing size from hull distance.

ie hull weight = 100 LBS * 1.5 beam meas. dif. = 150 ft lbs .

150 ft lbs dif. equates to a 300 LB 2 crew being out .5 ft further or 300*0.5 =150

So the wing should be the beam dif 1.5 ft plus .5 or two ft total out from the hull on cat with 8,5 beam to eqalize ft lbs of righting leverage of the 10 ft beam cat --on average .

I raced H-21s in the Prosail series back in 88 with wings, they were great and much easier to trap level from , they made nice seats between races too .

One error newbys made was not tying in the wings and running spin blocks off them . When the force of the spin pulled them out you had a wing flying all over on the end of the sheet .

Dangerous ,but kinda funny to see a sailor new to wings trying to catch the wing flying 20 ft into the air .

Have fun .

I really miss sailing this time of year here in the frozen GWN .

We gonna see you in Tybee this year Carl?

Thanks for asking Trey .

Wow -I would love to race the Tybee 500 again ,it looks like a great lineup of teams and people for 07 .

The ol I-20 has another 500 miles left in it -have the gear- trailer -van -equipement -know how etc , think it would be my 9th Tyee and 1000 mile race, so if you know of an independantly wealthy sponsor, crew and or ground crew that would like to team up --let me know <img src=

alt=

/> {joking kinda }

have fun all

http://www.tybee500.com/register/entries

Carl,

Would we need to consider the difference in the distance of the mast from the leeward hull as it relates to righting moment. Half of 8'6

id 4'3

and half of 10' is 5'. Does the extra 9" on the leward side offer advantages?

I think you have to consider total beam differences as the cb {center of Bouyancy } is the leeward hull and the lever arm is the beam measurement.

The masts centered being equal you have 9 inches to leeward and 9 to weather of added leverage .

In lighter winds {non trap}conditions the added beam or wings are a non factor.

1.5 extra beam * a 300 lb crew = 450 ft lbs of added leverage .

The hull weight needs to be factored in as well from the the 10 ft beam to the 8.5 beam {see previous post } .

That is 1.5 beam dif.* 100 lb hull = 150 ft lbs

A 300 LB crew needs to be out .5 further to compensate for hull weight of the 10 ft beam version or 300*.5 = 150 ft lbs

The total being 2 ft wings .

Think that's right. some can argue differently for valid reasons , but that's always part of measurement rating eqalizations.

I would like to see something like Rolf noted form into a new B class / Formula 20 class with room for experimentation and development , of course I have for the last decade or so . <img src=

alt=

/>

Carl,

it will happen. Just make a concensus on the design envelope, which is mostly in place from last winter or the winter before. Then build boats and get the craze going.
I know I will build one based on the alu Tornado rig, but it will have to wait until I have the F-16 ready and blessings from my wife. Why the Tornado rig? Becouse it is highly developed and fast out of the box. Plenty of tuning information available, plus I know the rig intimately from the years I have been sailing tornados. Having a surplus of cheap used alu masts dont hurt either.
The F-16 will be used for class racing and solo sailing, hopefully with the kids. The

F-20Super

is to be my distance race and distance racing machine.

There has been enough talk, get some hulls buildt and cobble together some platforms. Getting some protos on the water will do a lot to show manufacturers that there is a market for this kind of boat.

If you guys are going to form a F20 class why not make the width 12 feet. If you want the narrow boat, race an F18. If you are going to a 10 foot boat, might as well go all the way to 12 foot.

My 2 cents...

Why 12 foot? The ancient and most used formula for width is half the length. 8 foot is advantageous becouse it is legal trailering width. In low wind areas it's also advantageous with a narrow boat.

But whatever, just get some boats on the water and lets sort them out afterwards.

I have been sailing an SC20 for over 10 years now and once you go with a wider boat, you never go back. If you are going to go with a boat wider than the trailerable width, you might as well go all the way.

There is a point where the added righting moment is larger then what the leeward bow can carry. The wider the platform become vs. length and bouyancy, the easier it will be to pitchpole the platform. The Tornado is 20x10foot, and it is wide enough. I can count on two hands how many times I could have wished for more RM over the last 7 years. But we have raced in uncountable times in weaker winds where we really wished we could have got it up on one hull. It is a severe handicap in the light stuff when narrow boats can fly a hull while the wider boats are locked down with both hulls in the water.
If you live in an area with predominantly strong winds, the extra width and RM makes sense. If you live in an area with medium/weak winds, the extra RM becomes an handicap. Especially as in my opinion the

F20Super

should be designed for sailors a little bit heavier than the current classes. But, why not? Go for it and compare the performance to more narrow boats.. Over time the boats who compete will find the 'sweet spot' for how wide they should be. As long as the rig and sailarea is defined, the RM and optimum width can be calculated.

Carl, we'd love to see you out there. I have some Nigerian friends that are sending me a $10,000 check for a sunfish, I think I'll just forward the rest to you so you can do Tybee, sound good?

Get some change together, I'll find you an able ground crew, and show up! You'll only need about $3500-4000.

Too funny --thanks Trey .

I have an I -20 for sale in the classifieds { have others cats} and I've recieved about a dozen of those e-mails from

overseas buyers

that want to run the 10 k sunfish type scam .--sheeeesh .

It is nice to see some F-18 teams signing up for the Tybee 500 this year.
And Again I would love to race the Tybee again , it is such a great group of folks, each team competative, but everyone sharing a common love of sailing /racing and a great 500 mile adventure up the E coast together. Each day a fresh start and new race .

Have a great time .

Hi,

I saw a big yellow cat drive by, trailered, in front of my house a few days ago. I live in Homestead, Fl. Can anyone tell me who has a big (20') yellow cat who lives in Homestead, Florida?

Rick

What about the CFR as the next 20 footer? Makes sense, being developed and is lightweight

Rolf,
I've been out of the loop for some time with a PC melt down and I'm just going through old posts and found this one.
I think you are right on the mark.
Sure when it's blowing dogs off chains the wider beam is handy but how often do we sail in those conditions compared to conditions under 15 knots where the difference is likely to be balanced out by the slower tacking of a wider platform. Then look at the amount of time you sail lighter winds where lifting the windward hull becomes an advantage due to the reduction in wetted surface and corresponding reduction in drag.
It's worth trialling a 10ft beam on a modern hull shape.
The desigbn could have two jib options. A self tacker for bouy racing and larger overlapping jib for distance stuff.
Designing a platform to take a standard T rig makes good sense and is in fact a part of my plan with the additional jib option for distance stuff.
However I think to build such a boat in commercial numbers it will probably have to have an 8 ft beam.
When trying to appeal to larger numbers you can't beat convenience.

Just the way I see it.

Regards,
Phill

Your computer also failed? It must have been to hot

down under

this summer as Marcus also had some computer trouble. Overheated harddrive? <img src=

alt=

/>

I dont think there is any chance of a commercial operation betting good money on a new 20 footer at a reasonable cost before before there are some homebuildt prototypes and interest. What is needed is someone to get busy in their garages, build a boat and form a class. The basic platform parameters are pretty clear and discussed to death earlier.. Come to think about it, the F20Super and the F12 have a lot in common, but I think both classes will see prototypes and some interest.

About the strip-plank project we have discussed.. I am about ready.

Rolf,

The motherboard died in my lap top.
After a very long time they elected to replace the lap top rather than fix/replace the motherboard.

I agree about getting a prototype on the water.
Hopefully the 3rd quarter this year or 1st next should see a prototype sailing.

Regards,
Phill

Hey Matos,

That was probably Mike Phillips and his Marstrom 20...

Lambert's old M20 or another one?

Lambert and Livingston were sailing a white CFR 20.

Hey, what would a wing mast do on the N20?

Besides violate the SMOD regulations....

This years MKL winner!

Ha...