Looks like someone just answered my vision with the M20 and tornado rig. <img src=
alt=
/> Check the main forum post on the new 20 launched at Texel.
Slightly off topic, but... still on topic.
With regards to construction, when J-boats moved to SCRIMP (aka
infusion
) several (~10?) years ago, they started using what they called
resin rivets
(first boat was the J80). The core has holes in it that allow resin to bond to resin on both sides of the core.
Outside of the current splotches of Nacra 6.0's and H-20 camps, the only available
fast
20 footer available to the regular guy is the Nacra 20. All the other 20 footers are out of reach ($$) for the guys that are attracted to to the 20 foot boats. F 20 or HT 20 is going to need to be very affordable to be successful, there are too mant other viable options at this time.
Will,
a bit late for a reply, but
resin rivets
sound like a problem marketing put a spin on. I dont see much advantage to
resin rivets
, but they do add weight and cost.
Eric,
I think you are wrong. Price is not the selling point as new boats are
too expensive
anyway. What is needed is the right combination of people and a good product.
I think there is a market for 20 footers, as the last I heard there was interest for homebuilding a new 20 foot design. Homebuilding a boat is an commitment off the scale compared to just buying a boat.
I think you are wrong. Price is not the selling point as new boats are
too expensive
anyway. What is needed is the right combination of people and a good product.
And I would add.... A series of 5 events that the boat would compete in against all comers for line honors.
For example:
Texel in Holland
Statue of Liberty Race in NYC
Mug Race in Florida
Miami Key Largo Race in Florida
Race to Oxford on the Chesapeake Bay
These events are similar to what the Ventilo M2 class is doing or the descion 35's one designs are doing . (M2 is a 27 foot three man cat sailed on the swiss alpine lakes the D35 is a 4 man boat.)
Also, a circuit of high profile buoy races would help the class grow... These events are less clear to identify.
So, do 20 foot boat buyers race more bouys or distance?
Seems the F18 and F16 guys do a lot more bouys than distance. Are we missing the marketing angle for distance sailors? Bouy sailors? or both?
Being in FL, I think that an I20 (or other 20ft design)is optimal (for me). Racing here offers the best of both worlds awesome distance races: Steeplechase, Hogsbreath, Hiram's, Tybee (someday), Macho Man, etc. And also great buoy racing: Tradewinds, JPOR, Eustis, Carlisle, etc. The I20 is the perfect boat to do all those races on.
I personally would agree with you Karl...
It would seem the design of the N20 makes it ideal for windward/leeward bouy races (small jib, high aspect main, asym spin). I think the M20 builds on this and would, in some circles, be considered a 'better' bouy boat
The length makes it a bit more comfortable in the chop compared to smaller boats, and more room = better sailing long distance. With the bigger jib, the N6.0 with spin sailplan would be advantageous. The low rear beam clearance on the N20 has occasionally lodged complaints by distance sailors
But what, in the opinion of current sailors/owners, is the 20 foot
niche
. This would appear to be the place to begin to build a product/fleet around.
Kind of like building the F18-HT for the bouy niche and the Capricorn for distance (except put a bigger jib and a reefing main on the sailplan)
Just to add more complexity to the argument, what would be the ideal crew weight to design for, for the ideal 20?
I would guess 360 lbs +/-.
I'd concur. Somewhere around 350 US pounds minimum crew weight. I'd consider something around 380 US pounds as the
ideal
weight.
I typically race at around 380 and do pretty well. At the 5 rum regatta I was significantly lighter than that, probably in the 330 t0 340 range, and in the light air, we were very fast.
Aerynt,
I think the 20 ft boat should be designed for a weight of 160kg (360 lb) and up. This should not prevent lighter sailors from competing without penalty. It is just that the boats optimum all round performance should be more easily extracted from the boat by its intended target market.
I see the target market to be the larger sailors that want to sail a two up boat, both around the bouys and long distance.
Just the way I see it.
Regards,
Phill
thanks for all the opinions, I'm off to see the designer of the new LR2 next weekend to discuss the possibilities of a new 20 design
Exciting! Keep us posted...
Aerynt,
Are you looking at using the LR2 as a model for this design. Scale it up and make the changes needed to support, extra crew weight, jib, spi and double trap. Or are looking at a completely different design and thought process?
Obviously the LR2 would be the boat to base it on if its possible to do so.
have you seen these recent posts?
http:/
Yes,
I keep up with this and keep in touch with Ian, John and Fred. But thanks. A 20 version definately could be interesting. My other cat is a Tornado. I like the 20" platform. I wonder what changes would need to be made to the platform other than LOA and beam to the boat to support the 160kg. Keep me informed as you progress.
This is the designers first pass at my boat, some things will get changed but I'm mostly happy (delirious happy perhaps?)with what they produced.
Spec so far:
LOA 6.1m
Beam 4.45m
Board down draft 1.34m
Beach weight 149 kg
Sailing weight 315 kg
Main, Jib & Mast 30.7 m^2
Medium Reacher 24.75 m^2
Big Reacher 32.8 m^2
The last couple of pics will be how it folds up to travel with.
Aerynt
2nd picture
3rd picture
4th picture
5th picture
6th picture
First trailoring picture
Second trailoring picture
That is pretty cool looking, but I just want to ask, it looks like you have a daggerboard/centerboard coming from the center of the boat. Would the structure for that not add alot of weight that could be eliminated by just using regeular dagger boards which it looks like the boat has?
Like I said that is a really cool boat and I am definently not an expert, but those are my thoughts.
4.45m wide? Are you counting on the banana boards to stop you from digging the bow in?
I am wondering why there are two snuffer openings, and what looks like an inner forestay? Would be less complex with just one snuffer opening? Why is the 'central pod going all the way to the rear beam? Do you have a target weight, hull volume, mast length and sail area?
It is something new! Hope you get your dream buildt, and that it's not too expensive.
Gree, normally I'd agree with you about the structure and weight, but because of where the mast is (and associated loads)I don't think much as added to accommodate the centerboard. I saw the results of an ansys FEA of the beam/pod arrangement and the largest loads are at the mast step and that area hardly deflects at all, the board loads are minor compared to them. The center location has more to do with the banana boards than anything else and they might be removed soon anyways, they were added as a sort of insurance policy that I don't think is necessary after watching a bunch of LR2 videos. As that boat goes up and down hill and you watch the horizon, the top of the mast is always going forward, the boat just never pitches, even down hill in 12-15 knots and with 8 knot gusts and the crew sitting against the main beam, the bow never goes in more than 40-50mm. Not sure how they do it, but its like watching a train on rails.
Rolf, think I addressed the banana boards above, the 2 snuffers are for the 2 reachers, last I heard the wind can change strength during a race. The centerpod only goes back to the wingmast step, aft of that is a plug in compression tube and forward the prod plugs in also, whats not shown is a small inverted
v
striker under the mast step that is tied to the prod under the forestay and to the bottom of the rear beam. Weights and sail areas are in my first post above, think that the top of the mast is about 10.4m off the water and as I was told, total hull volume is irrelevant to most everything. As for expensive, it already is expensive and I haven't started to build it yet.
Aerynt