Congratulations to Dave & Dave

It was a brutal trip but the cream always rises...

Congrats to everyone who makes this EPIC VOYAGE every year.

Kudos to the Rudder Club and Palatka Yacht Club they really stepped up their game this year. We had a festival/party in the boat park Friday evening with a live band, oysters and of course beer. They also had a small warm up race Friday afternoon which we plan to do next year. Plus Beef-o-Bradies has the restaurant contract with the host hotel so the food is a bit better. Clearly the city of Palatka is behind this event and it really showed, what a difference.

It's easy to hate this race because it's always a light air affair but the host clubs do everything they can to make it worth your while. Trust me when I tell you that the post race stories can be just as entertaining if not more so than if we had wind.

The best part of this race was chatting up with friends I hadn't seen in a year, as well as those I see all the time.

I did find out this year that Gina McDonald can talk some trash and her timing is perfect. Ten minutes before we splash the boat she walks over and pats me on the back and all I heard in my head was 'Awe sweety, it's too bad we're going to kick your a$$'. The woman is brilliant!

Just remember to bring your good karma, this is one race where it's better to be lucky than good.

I puked in my mouth a little bit just now.

What's on your mind JC?

Let's just let it rip a little bit.

Carlson ran a Catnip rating with carbon rudders, daggers, A-cat carbon mast and spin, only taking a hit for the spin. That's not very sportsman I think. That is a call-out to the polka-dot.

The 30 is nothing like it began in existence, adding a carbon rig, square top main, an upwind A sail and a spin that is 24 square meters (258 sq feet) larger than original, totaling 78 sq meters (839 sq ft) . The F18 spin is only 21 sq meters. Of course, it's the only boat with an 'all sails' DPN rating, which was quickly expressed to me by a very kind (I'm serious) Roberts gent after said race. What is 'all sails' exactly? and how can any boat have that kind of rating? (Again, I'm serious) They did sail the 30 well. I know that. However, again that is a reason for the DPN to drop. Look at all the classes with top sailors on board and what happens to the DPN. Is the the boat? The sailors? The football field of sail? The only thing that matters is time on distance. Period. Oh, and they add racks to the boat sometimes too. I forgot about that.

And you, Dave, sailed a completely stock F18. Shame on you! Heavy none the less.

We did add curved foils to the M20. Other than that we were stock. There is no current adjustment for that at the moment.

Every time I call the sailors to task on their ratings circumnavigation I get the same answer,

Well until they tell me I can't do it....

I'm not sure exactly who 'they' is, but I thought 'they' was us, the sailors, who approach this sport in a gentlemanly way and respect their fellow competitors. Damn am I wrong about that one.

The fact is, nobody thinks they have a chance to beat the 30 without doing something drastic, which is why I saw more frankenboats than a bad episode of Mystery Science Theater last weekend. In the face of staggering odds, the human mind will stop at nothing to succeed, especially when it can add some carbon bits to a bent popsicle. Then, when one fails they go find something else to do, like the 200 competitors that didn't show up last weekend.

Did I think we had a chance? Yes. However, if it wasn't pursuit style, the Antrim 27 would have taken all the marbles. Hats off to them for sure.

So I came to the conclusion that this race is going to slowly decay to the point of a club race (Rudder Club that is) unless it is evened out somehow. For sure, something has to be done to make the common man feel he has a chance if he sails splended.

Is this sour grapes? I do really hate to lose. But I only like to win when I have done my best to play a fair game and execute the game plan to the best of my abilities.

Is that what you were looking for Dave?

Good call out John <img src="<>/mad.gif" alt="mad" title="mad" height="15" width="15" />

I wish I had said that <img src="<>/smirk.gif" alt="smirk" title="smirk" height="15" width="15" />

Needed to be said.

Thanks for talking to me after the race, John. Sorry I didn't recognize you. <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" />

Same game got played with the 27, 22, and 20. Seems to be a dishonorable trend going on with him.

That is why one and only one of the 20's fit under the cardsound bridge I belive they other lost something very vital like a mast he he he ! ! ! ! !
that would be steaple chase I belive......

And they both went under the same section of bridge one right after the other follow the leader with out thinking ops ! ! !

Wait, the boat gets the same rating no matter how much cloth it sticks up in the air?

How the hell is that not dirty cheating?

2 FAIR SAILING

A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be excluded from the boat’s series score.

It was John, and good on you for having a fairly balanced post.

The bottom line is, it is up to us to file a protest if we feel a competitor is breaking a rule. The RC 30 issue is known by those that are interested and it always taints their accomplishments. As for Dave, same deal.

The protest is fairly easy to write up and submit but clearly nobody wants to be the dick. Five years ago this crap would have driven me up the freaking wall but I've made my peace with handicap racing and have accepted it for what is which is nothing more than a loose approximation of where we finished. Those that have more invested in handicap racing need to pick up the ball and do what they think is necessary. Clearly talking to the offenders face to face is not having the desired results.

As for the RC-30 all sails rating, this is pretty much the same thing as what is done for the big tri's. The idea is you're rated for your biggest sail plan then you can carry anything you want below that. Another point regarding the spin and DPN, there is no size limit for the spin hit, so that may be a soft argument in the protest. Anyone can carry any size head sail for the .96 hit and I suspect the RC30 number was created with this in mind. If the RC isn't taking a hit for the carbon stick, square top and racks (.995 * .995 * .995, which are tiny hits) then you have a case otherwise it may not be a winable protest depending on the opinion of the DPN committee.

Bill and Eric have been flogged on the internet for what 10+ years now. Remember the sh!tstorm on the old 1design.net site? So, a protest needs to be filed or everyone needs accept the situation for what it is.

For the record, I did ask the DPN committee to review ALL the Formula boats, box rule, RC 30 and yes the M20 too. I requested that review be done to bounce the DPN numbers off the other systems in use just to make sure the numbers are in the ballpark. It never went anywhere.

Mark before you jump in here and start beating the drum about switching to a measurement based system please note that nobody has made the effort to file a protest and this has been going on for years! This clearly points out that we have the time to bitch about something but don't have the time or the desire to do something about it.

Both Eric and Dave visit this forum from time to time.

Perhaps being called out will encourage them to do the right thing, just like it did when Skip (ARC22) had his little

problem

at the start of the Steeplechase.

Having said that, like Dave said, this race is more about luck than being good or having a sweet rating.

However, it is always nice to think you have a fair chance when you set out in the morning. <img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />

BTW...here was my

Franken Boat

this year.

Sweet. Wots it rate?

88.4

Nice Jack!
Love the shark on the bows!

In many cases, yes, but I finished within sight of the RC30 the year I did the mug race on an I20 and still lost to it....I think there's a little more to that sweetheart rating - he's won that thing like, what? 12 years in a row?

wow, and I was just interested (prior to a scheduling conflict) in attending for the party and the nice sail up the river with a crap-load of different boats.

I mean, really, how often do you get to sail along with an A-scow, a tall ships, sailing canoes, 4ksbs we've all skinned our knees on, and franken-boats of all shapes and sizes?

You dudes at the front of the pack worry about that protest stuff... but in essence I agree that if you've franken-boated yourself it would be nice to come up with a fair means of adjusting the rating.

Got it...

You guys are pretty lame talking about a competitor cheating and not having the balls to challenge him.... IMO... if anyone gets flicked... it should be the wankers who whine but don't do anything.

JC made the only relevant point.... The race will die unless the OA gets the priorities right..... eg it's a race first... then a party.

FYI, With SCHRS.... every owner would have been the one to declare the bits. measure the bits, run the calculator and get the rating.

He can get someone else to man the smart end of the ruler... or even a completely independent team to measure the bits and sign their name.

Everything I have quickly read so far... may not be

fair

but it certainly was legal under Portsmouth.... That is the problem with portsmouth.

To say a regatta will die because the OA won't police handicap infractions is bogus! Handicap racing has been around forever and the nonsense that goes along with it has too. It's also impossible for the OA to police what someone submits on their registration and it's up the the competitors to file a protest if there is an infraction. I'm actually surprised you took this position Mark.

Same as with DPN, you are still expected to claim your mods. The chink in the armor with a measurement based system is it's just not likely that the twice a year frankenboat racer is going to go to the bother of getting a cert. DPN makes it very easy for this type a participant to play and play legally. So you need to choose, purify the water and shrink the pool or live with it being a bit tainted with the hopes that frankenboat sailors will catch the bug and join a formula, OD or box rule class.

Handicap racing IS about the party. If the party sucks why would you handicap race at all? Everyone knows if you want to have a real race you do it straight up! The Rudder Club gets it, again Kudos to the Rudder Club!

What can I say...

We don't have a qualified

****

among us to file a protest and look like the sore loser.

Like ... you.

Ding is right...as usual. <img src="<>/sleep.gif" alt="sleep" title="sleep" height="15" width="15" />

The Mug Race is a lot more than a bunch of Catsailors whining about winning.

(Not that we shouldn't do what we can to encourage fair reporting and challenge those who abuse the system...thanks to JC for getting that started).

Most folks haven't a chance and many never finish within the time limit.

Still, they come back every year. 4 out of 5 years it is a tedious slog in conditions most of us would not attempt otherwise.

The Crap Shoot is finding pressure and not sailing through it into a Black Hole.

Your handicap is just the first card in your hand. You squander that away many times during the day, often to gain it back double with a lucky choice.

Who would do this without the fellowship and camaraderie?

My ride of choice this year put me square in the middle of the folks who make this race happen. The slower pace actually was quite invigorating. Lots of position swaps and close racing goin' on in there with so many different boat configurations.

The Mug Race will be 60 years old next year. If none of us showed up, we would hardly be missed. <img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />

Not what I want to say.. The OA should pay attention to the racing by just changing to a workable and fair handicap system. ... This is just an issue of integrity. Use a workable system... not one that has been failing over time.

You can't piss on the sailors for

cheating

when they really are not... the OA should lead... not follow.... change the system.

I am not saying the OA should enforce handicap or One design compliance....I have second thoughts on the OA enforcing the safety requirements. Its the sailors responsibility for all of this. Not the point I want to make.

You are always hung up on the certification issue. The twice a year sailor with a beater one design boat.... is covered.

the twice a year sailor who has spent the time on creating his frankenboat is HIGHLY motivated to see how the thing does.
They will be follow the rules... measure their franken equipment and run the calculator and get a rating. They will be more worried about getting the measurements and ratings correct then trying to cheat. No certificate is needed...

If you think he is cheating... protest him... (just like PN)... if you think he made an interpretation error... talk to him.

When you are required to use a bull $#it tool (portsmouth has failed over time)... and all you get is grief about it... Of course that is no fun.

Dave... the guy who builds the frankenboat for this race is simply not going to buy a Nacra 17.

Here again is where you and I disagree. By definition (in my opinion) handicap racing regardless of the system used is flawed and unfair in one way or another to someone and there is simply no way around this very glaring truth. Didn't Carnac use a measurement based system?

You also said the

serious

frankenboat sailor would make sure their cert was up to date and accurate, which doesn't really apply here either. The teams in question in this thread are being accused of cheating (not claiming the mods that apply to their rig) and a measurement system aint going to fix that.

I think with the looseness of the portsmouth rating for that boat, the protest might be difficult to win unless there was some other information that the Portsmouth committee could provide showing how they arrived and how they constrained that number. It is what it is.

Don't hate the Playa, hate the game!

Portsmouth sucks...but if you want to play, well, you know the rules are weak when it comes to 'modified sail plans'. How would you like to be one of those poor monohulls who have to start at 7am, with zero wind, and then try to finish, as all the late starting cats go blowing by you when the breeze finally shows?

Go for the Party, but they should just hand the RC 30 the trophy on Friday night.

Personally, I HATE light air sailing. I only got into cats to GO FAST(er) than monohulls! Having done this light air drifter 3 times, I swore I'd never go back, the logistics are a PITA, as is the long drive home with a hangover, but since next year is the 60th...well...maybe.

Depends on the weather forcast.

I have heard complaints about portsmouth and frankenboats in the local clubs in my area as well. I've been tossing an idea around in my head but I have never mentioned it before now...

What if the skipper was rated instead of the boat? It would be a portsmouth style system where a skipper's (rather than the boat's) rating would adjust after every regatta. With such a system, you would win races more based on how much you (or your boat) has improved.

In the particular case being discussed here, the skipper's (Dave's?) rating would progressively decrease every time he won the regatta. In order to keep winning, he would need to either improve his boat each year, or become a better sailor.

Gaming such a system would require the skipper to intentionally loose regattas to keep his rating high. Somehow I don't think that would be much of a problem!

We are due for a windy year Tim. We missed by two days this year...it blew nicely all day Thursday.

Translation.... Catnip.... Old heavy A class that Dave has modified... LEGAL
Carbon Rudders... LEGAL (not regulated in Portsmouth)
A-cat carbon mast.... A catnip is an A Cat.... Length and type of mast... not an issue for A cats... LEGAL

spin, only taking a hit for the spin LEGAL

All of that is LEGAL

Now... the problem is that the last time a catnip raced in a legit portsmouth race may be 15 years ago. Do you think the A cat rating from 15 years ago was... is

accurate

.... The Portsmouth system has FAILED.

Calling Dave Carlson Unsportsmanlike or

cheating

.... Ignorant at best!

Flawed and unfair....

Flawed.... what do you mean?
The rating table is not accurate? the rating table is not precise enough? the rating table was generated using bogus data? the rating formula uses the wrong constants?

Unfair.... again... what do you mean?

Look.... if two IDENTICAL ONE DESIGN BOATS finish a race overlapped... guess what... the most perfect and the fairest handicap system in the world would still score the two boats as TIED.

If what you want to say is that handicap racing is not as precise as the One design racing.... TRUE.... and .... so what?