Congratulations to Dave & Dave

Have you ever played in a after work golf league that uses this system? Yeah... people will sandbag.

This system might be fun for a local club event but having grown up sailing PHRF which essentially rates the skipper/team it starts to suck out load real quick. PHRF is the devil!

The question is does this apply to the Catnip and RC-30?

Any other deviations from standard class configurations, including the addition of wings, can be assessed a penalty of at least 0.995. Multiple deviations may incur multiple penalties. Penalties may be greater than 0.995. Please identify any such modifications and penalties assigned and include with results reported to the handicap committee and Portsmouth Numbers Committee.

You say no but others say yes which is the basis of the thread and potential protest.

Let me also state if I haven't made it clear before... I don't give two sh!ts about the catnip, RC30 or any other rig in a handicap race because for me it aint real racing and that's how I deal with the handicap racing bullsh!t.

If you think a measurement system will magically make all this insanity go away your are delusional Mark. It's like saying one religion is the real true religion and all others are bogus. You're a believer and good for you, I'm simply not.

<img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />

Yeah...I've been sucked in by that

...we are overdue...

before too!

But I might come just to drink beer with you at the finish line Jack.

I might not bring my boat though.

The many hours spent rigging it, unrigging it, all that back and forth driving up to the club and then back to Polatka sure cut into my party time! If I could just find someone to haul my beach wheels up to the Rudder club...

I know you are not making any charge that either boat is cheating.

Your broad brush stroke that this is just like religion and you are not a believer is fine... BUT the race actually IS scored on handicap and they give out trophies and others care.
So... the OA should lead and choose the most workable handicap system.

Portsmouth has now become a system where you are screwed at almost all turns.

Maybe he is... maybe he is not CHEATING

is a tragic conversation.
Portsmouth's time in the sun is over. The rudder club should lead...

It's a really fun race regardless of weather. It is one of my favorite sailing memories when David Mosely and I used it to shake out the I20 before our first Tybee....we actually had a little breeze that year before storms sucked it away (before bringing it back with veracity). The hull flying spin run through the monohull fleet was awesome...making fun of Mosely for wrapping himself in the spinnaker when it started to rain...when we were soaking wet anyway (trampoline launched kite), the storms bringing the wind back and making it to the club in time to have the beer tent whisked away over our heads into the clubs antennae (storm wind), and my favorite quote of all time when an older dude who was competing in a sailing canoe was boat assisted to the club. He was sitting on a short retaining wall shivering and someone asked him if they should call EMS. His response?

I'm 80 years old, I'm supposed to shake...just show me to the beer tent

. Hell yeah.

WHAT??? You mean there's NOT one TRUE RELIGION???

HERESEY!

He's a WITCH, BURN HIM! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

You got it Pal! Done deal. <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" />

That ain't gonna happen Mark. We (cat sailors) are the outliers. Their handicap guy is overloaded as it is with trying to merge PHRF, Portsmouth, etc. into some sort of believable spreadsheet. It is called RCHS (Rudder Club Handicap System) and no one but he knows (or should know) how it works. That way it is hard to protest anyway.

Our Portsmouth numbers are only the base number and he has the ability to make WAG adjustments as he sees fit.

Having said that, word is that he is willing to make bigger adjustments for next year. That was the talk after the race anyway. The new lady Commodore wants this to happen.

It might be a good time for some well written letters to find there way to the Rudder Club.

Address:
Rudder Club of Jacksonville
8533 Malaga Avenue
Jacksonville, FL 32244
Telephone/fax:
904 264-4094
office@rudderclub.com

Holy crap.... I thought we were talking Portsmouth and

cheaters

...

now that we are talking about the Rudder club handicap system... which contains a WAG factor.

Give me a break.... anybody claiming XX is cheating best apologize.

Still...if you have a Cat, you are supposed to declare a PN based on the USSailing list with the appropriate modifiers.

If you don't declare in good faith then shame on you.

yes... but Dave Carlson properly declared his spin catnip....

The RC30 is a unique one of a kind boat. It is impossible to rate an RC 30 using Portsmouth.... It is a rating for Bill Roberts who owns it. .. If he sailed the boat as well as he did the last time... he would have sailed the boat to it's rating and would likely win. It is the nature of Portsmouth and one off boats.

A solid rating would be founded on a buoys race with a couple of RC30's racing against a couple of Yardstick boats. oh... times 100 such events. x each of 4 wind ranges.....

That John Casey wants to argue that Bill Roberts or Dave Carlson are cheating in the Rudder club handicap system is beyond bogus.

The fact that the club wants to use this out of date rating system to generate the Rudder club rating system ....is insane.

Mark,
I really get bored with your ramblings. You are always trying to stir the pot.

If someone is going to use MAJOR A-Cat parts for the boat then use the A-Cat DPN! Catnip DPN number is for an OD boat that doesn't have carbon bits. I'm not going any further with you on this because you tend to run in circles until the ground hurts beneath your feet. It's not legal. I don't want to be a forum butt that tells you to check your facts before posting, but I guess I am.

The problem is not the system so much but enforcing the system to keep it (more) fair for everyone. I don't like the negativity that comes from this discussion but hopefully out of it some form of positive enforcement of the rules could maybe possibly come from it.

IMO all catamaran DPNs are too high compared to monos, and there are a whole lot of boats that need adjustments. That is enough work in itself seeing how quite a few don't buoy race, but when sailors have been cheating (yes I said cheating) the system, it can get so out of hand that our sport really gets hurt. I don't want to see that happen.

I don't want to hear about SCHRS or whatever because I've been involved with some of their problems, and they're plenty believe me. We have a system supported by US Sailing that needs to be proactively worked on, and possibly there can be a consensus of what needs to be done with our system.

The DPN and mods provided to the Rudder Club still need to be valid. The issue remains the same. If they were using another handicap system it would still go through the RCHS.

This is a pursuit race so yes there is another layer of jiggery pokery.

It's just the Mug Race, I enjoy it others don't and still others take it way to seriously. Do you really think the monohull guys could give a sh!t about who wins the Mug? Although, it was pretty cool when the Scow won it... pssst Roberts finished fourth that year.

I gotta get this race back on my calendar for next year... cheaters, rule compressors, jiggery pokery, or not.

I started this thread to give congratulations to outstanding performances by 2 people that frequent this site. That's why in the thread I put the 1 & 1 below Dave & Dave. I stirred up more than I thought I would but the responses were entirely predictible. Now for my rant.

It is our fault.

As this is a Corinthian sport, we are held to a high standard of responsiblity. In this case, we have been negligent in taking responsibility for how are ratings determined.

I have the pleasure of sailing a Stiletto 27 that is unsailable to its rating in WL's. This rating is determined by the West Florida PHRF committee. They have a board of directors and a rating committee. They come from the various clubs and sail related business's in the area. Both of these are volunteers that give there time and expertise. They have a much more elaborate procedure for determining ratings.

Is it fair? Yes and No. It's run by those human beings that try their best.

What can we do?

Work with USSailing to develop a Multihull Portsmouth rating committee (some of you really hate that word) to review the Portsmouth system. Those whom have commented on this thread certainly have the knowledge and passion to improve the system.

Sailing has so many variables that our attempts to approximate fairness is an educated, deduced guess.

Bored.... ah... note to mark... use shorter sentences... JC won't get bored

Stir the pot... ME! I am not calling two competitors cheaters... You are the guy on his white horse saving the integrity of the sailing by trying to fix Portsmouth.

If I thought you had a clue... I would debate...

Good luck trying to save portsmouth... when you come up with a solution for the RC 30, the M20, the Nacra carbon 20, and the CFR 20.... email me....

Clearly your first order of business is to call out those cheaters and have them change their ways.

I still think we (OK, Pete Melvin) could come up with a much more accurate speed prediction program for cats, that relies on the simplest measurements, such as water line length, beam, total weight, either with or without crew, (racing displacemnt) total upwind sail area and downwind sail area.

Unlike all the different Monohull hull shapes, all cat hulls are pretty much 'torpedo' like, that is, they are long and skinny, so the real 'speed' factor is;

How much does it weigh, how much sail are does it have, upwind and down, and how wide is it?

Seems to me someone must smart enough (don't make me call Wouter!) to come up with a simple speed prediction program for cats of all sizes, that could factor in those simple measurements and be much closer than the Portsmouth numbers.

Tim - you are describing SCHRS.

They take it a little farther with their model but basic concept that you are proposing.

OK, we all agree that trusting a handicap system SUCKS!

We all agree the Portsmouth is BROKEN if only for the fact that it is not updated and requires accurate report with results from mixed fleet racing. NO ONE is reporting anymore. R.I.P.

SCHRS already exists so you don't need to do any further R&D. Anyone can plug in the numbers and come up with a baseline rating. No need for certificates or measurers or that BS. We TRUST each other...Right?

Handicap racing will STILL SUCK...but at least there would be transparency in the rating.

Measure the RC30 and Catnip On Steroids and let it go.

As anyone run the nubers,Portsmouth, vs. SCHRS, on the F16/F18's and A cats, to see how they compare? ie. does one system favor the spin boats vs another?

In the case of all the Frankenboats, with 'my plan' (not that I really have a plan) somebody would still have to measure all the the sails, for all the Frankenboats that are using 'custom' sails, ie. huge jibs and spinnakers, or putting squaretops on boats that don't normally have them. AND...they'd have to weigh all the boats too...huge PITA for a weekend party type race.

To keep it very simple for something like the Mug Race, you would just use the class minimum weight. Almost all FB's are based on a class platform.

It would take someone to step forth and do the calculations and then hand that over to the Rudder Club handicapper....oh ****, never mind.

I think PH is just fine for the Mug Race! <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

I loved that spinnaker set up on your ride! Now...how about adding a trapeez.

No, WAIT...I'll loan you my mast and all 3 sails off my F16, all you need is a mast step that will keep it all together.

That should make

Waves

at the next Mug race!

Actually Tim, when the wind piped up near the end (15 maybe) on a very close reach I was able to hold it down quite well without a trapeze. I passed about ten boats that I had lost ground to in the downhill slog.

THEN........the pole snapped in half about a mile to go! I was able to gather all the crap on board and made it to the finish.

I think a trap would invite a total meltdown. You can only put so much CRAP in a 13' bag.

Here is a video of the finishes...I come across at 11:45 with my busted pole dangling.

Note that the lady says

it's a Hobie Wave...OMG!

This is a peach. It should be memorialized forever.
Mark Schneider thinks he has more of a clue about catamaran sailing than JC does.
It took me awhile to type this because I kept passing out from laughter.

Congrats Dave & Dave. Good job. Next year I hope to be out there again giving you two and the Roberts a run for your money.

Huh. Always light air.... Franken boats about.... Me thinks a C2 rig needs to find its way onto my Viper.

How about a F20c rig on an 18HT platform with a code zero on the sprit?

I'm pretty sure I have all the parts to make it happen.

Mug Race 2013 here we come...

Screw it. If I don't have to declare mods, I'll just stick an 5 horse motor on the back and really stick it to the man!

y'all keep coming up with these light air machines for next year. That will guarantee me some big breeze! 😉