Couldn't right my cat solo. Need advice

The longer ginpole reduces the amount of load on the line much in the same way that having the righting line over the hull reduces the load you have to hold with your hands...but it doesn't change the total amount of force the mast needs to reach vertical or that the boat needs to be righted. Look at the two diagrams in the image below. The differences in the rope angle will not have any affect on the physics in the situation to help you right the boat. The rope in the top diagram will be easier to hang on to - but won't make the boat come up any faster.

This discussion is so useless.. but anyway..
In this case there is a difference. The maximum tension you can produce with the winch will be the same independently of the length of the ginpole. Therefore the torque that can be applied to the mast may change with the length of the ginpole. It's not the same case as the person hanging on the rope, becaue the winch is not rotating with the mast, it's external to the rotating system. The person, on the other hand, has nothing external to the rotating system to grab and increase any force. His weight is fixed so the only thing he can do is move it around.

But the winch won't help on board.. unless you tie it to the mast float, swim away with it and turn the handle REALLY fast...
Maybe use the righting bag as a sea anchor..

Or have one for each shroud and change the mast angle.....

I have used righting poles and ropes here are definate facts
I made my first righting pole too short and it didn't work, I made a longer one and it worked. Its just a lever it has to work the only limitation is how far you get from the pivot point. Further out the more leveredge.
I have used righting ropes on many cats, the under tramp system is neat and great when it works but if you can't get your cat back up throw the rope over the hulls like I did and you will never go back to an under tramp system. The reason over hull system works is you are adding more height to your leveredge by pulling the object from higher thereby increasing the leveredge on the object. When you pull a tree over you don't tie your rope around the middle you tie it around the top

Because you are standing on the ground. If you were standing on the tree it wouldn't make much difference, other than tension the rope more or less.

I just got a nice windsurf mast for 20 bucks. I'll test it to figure out the right length and then cut it. Thanks everybody.

I understand how clingy this idea is but it's just not true. I have a degree in this. It makes it easier to hold on to the rope but will not give you more mechanical advantage to right the boat because you and the boat are essentially a

closed system

. You are attached to the boat at every point - your feet, your arms, the rope. The only thing that affects the physics of righting the boat is how far you extend your weight from the center of rotation (the hull in the water). You move your weight out to move the center of gravity for the system (you, the boat, the lift of the sails) past the pivot point to the underside of the boat so it will start to rotate and right itself.

Leave it as is, the world seems up-side-down today anyway!

I totally agree with that, Jake.
And getting your weight more outboard can only be done with a pole.

A simple but strong enough pole with on one end a forkisch like end-piece which you put and let rest in the corner of the forebeam and the down-hull will do (the other pole end is attached to the uphaul line which comes from above.

Now a very simple method of testing this and determing the appropriate lenght of the pole (and the length of the uphaulline) is

dry-swimming

.
Pull your cat, fully rigged, on a beach on its side. Mount your pole and try to lift everything back. Imitate if your on the water.

Bare in mind that an actual capsized position in the water is less difficult (or at least the same) then what you have just tried. Because in the water the down-hull is deeper in the water then on the sand. (Assuming that the masttop in the watersituation is just level with the surface, so use a ball!)

ronald reeder

Wish I had a link to show the photos of Hobie Gary's system

The Solo Right

. He mad a

lever

(usually out of an oar) that had a small plastic

wafer

on the paddle end that would keep the end in the dagger board pocket. Then there were two lines, one that attached to each crossbar at the hull intersection. The lever/oar was made to angle up slightly out over the water by the length of each line. Then you took your regular righting line out with you as you stepped back out on the lever/oar. As the boat came up, you went hand over hand up the righting line and the boat righted.
He made the same type of system for my H21se out of a H16 boom with some non skid tape on it. It worked perfect. I was able to right that boat solo with that system.

Hey Guys,
I changed my shroud adjusters to the cantalever kind. I capsized on myself hiked out on the trapeze. Instead of pulling on the righting bar I made the difficult climb to the high shroud adjuster to pull the pin. The net effect on the center gravity was radicaly changed by extending the shroud out 5 inches. I don't think it will self right but it helps.

Holdyourcourse,
J.P.Ayers
Isotope 186

I'm not good enough with computers to do a diagram, can somebody overlay andanistas drawing with somebody pulling down with their arms so all of their weight is a further 2ft out, even though their toes are balancing on the boat, like I would do if the boat wasn't coming up.

Jeff,

I'm too lazy to do your sketch, but you get the same effect by just raising your arms as you do holding the rope above your head.

This is the image I've just posted over at Sailing Anarchy (for the one or two of you who don't visit both sites). As people have been trying to explain, while your feet are on the hull there is no advantage in putting the righting rope over the hull except it is easier to hold, however, at some stage you come off the hull during righting and this is when the over the hull system becomes superior.

Using a righting pole is different as it allows you to move your weight away from the hull immediately.

Are you saying that if I couldn't right the cat and I put all my weight on the over the hull rope by hanging of it, no feet on the deck, it would be more beneficial

Jake, it must have frooze over! I totally agree with you! 😉

That's true. But when you come off the hull I suspect that you are already done and it might even be better to have less lever arm, so that the boat comes out slowly

no because you would have a very small lever (about 300mm as against the 1200mm shown above)

By the time the boat get's to the 3rd position, I'm usually heading for the dolphin striker brace to keep it from going over the other way.

This guy's system looks promising.....a lot like Hobie Gary's:

http://tinyurl.com/au5w2ka

http://tinyurl.com/a2lu356

well, I guess you could wear heels or platform shoes, too...

Yes Jay, and you could also wear a nice dress too.

But you brought me on a new idea: You can also hang yourself with your harness on the uphaulline (which is hanging over the tophull) and push your self outside with a pole against frontbeam/hull ......

ronald

Ronald, I'd try a diagram first. I used to do hang gliding and the steering on those is exactly like righting a cat (but easier). Its a weight-shift system.

The problem with hanging your weight off the higher hull (once its past vertical) is that your CG probably doesn't change much, your legs are further from the rotational center of the boat but your arms and head are closer.

In hang-gliding its called cross-correction which translates to ineffective steering due to minimal net change in the CG of the pilot.

You may need to

walk tall and carry a big stick

like Churchill once advised 😉

Anyhow, in my experience the hardest part is lengthwise stability, you tend to sway from bow to stern while balancing in any waves. Makes it really hard to keep your weight out where it counts. Maybe some kind of Hawaiian righting line and a pole combination would work best?

Yes Dennis, I agree with you.

After one night sleep, my idea was already vanished.

Problem is that I sail only with wind mostly more then 15 knots. Therefor after the righting itself, there is always this risk on flipping through to the other side.
This is especially true for a single-handed sailer who tends to swim his sails more off the wind for support.

So when the mast comes up, I'm used to dive to the leeward hull in order to keep it down.
Hanging with my hook on a uphaulline is working contra.

ronald

Problem solved! I took a windsurf mast and made a righting pole. Instead of inserting some sort of spatula into the daggerboard trunk, I attached a loop of strap at the end of the pole and the daggerboard goes through this loop. The loop is long enough so that the pole doesn't bite the hull. It worked great. I didn't cut the pole, I just store it under the tramp, along one hull. At the front beam it goes between the dolphin striker strap and the beam, so it doesn't touch the hull. I used a unique line that starts at one end of the rear beam , goes forward to a fixed loop at the forward beam (same side), then along the front beam to a loop at the other end and then back to the rear beam. I take the extra length of line to either side depending on which side the boat capsized. There's a knot with a little loop at the right position on each side, that attaches to a carabiner at the pole. I also set a second line for support at the middle of the pole (between the carabiner in one end and the daggerboard in the other). The line for this one goes from the middle of one beam through a fairlead at the pole (running free, not tied in) to the middle of the other beam. I intend to manage the excess of line length with bungies and a couple carabiners, to minimize the set up and the storage time. I'm not quite there yet but almost..

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKuSSZ7JxBA&feature=youtu.be

At the risk of resurrecting a lengthy debate I have to comment and solicit further response. I agree it is all about the physics. As a chemical engineer, I am familiar with the concepts dicussed but not an expert in this area. But I think one aspect of the physics may be missing here. By saying that the angle of the righting line does not matter, I think you are assuming that the feet of the sailor can put torgue on the lower hull. This is not the case since the sailer's feet are not rigidly attached to the hull. For example if there was a rigid rod extending from the bottom hull through the sailer's body then there would be no need for a righting line as the sailor's weight would be transfed as torque directlyon the bottom hull. Since the feet aren't rigidly attached they can't apply force to right the cat, all the righting force mush come via the righting line. So, if it were true that the righting line angle did not matter then you should be able to tie the righting line to the lower beam right next to the bottom hull and still be able right the boat. In a less extreme case, it should be equally as easy to right the boat if you tied off to the mast base? In other words I'm suggesting that the lower you tie the rope the more difficult it would be to right the boat. I haven't tried either approach so please correct me if you have experience that says otherwise. So, my contention is that while there may be only a slight or negligble differnce going over the hull or diretly to the upper beam, the angle of the rope does matter and as you approach the extreme positions it's impact becomes greater.

At the risk of rekindling this lengthy debate I have to comment and solicit further response. I agree it is all about the physics. As a chemical engineer, I am familiar with the concepts dicussed but not an expert in this area. But I think one aspect of the physics may be missing here. By saying that the angle of the righting line does not matter, I think you are assuming that the feet of the sailor can put torgue on the lower hull. This is not the case since the sailer's feet are not rigidly attached to the hull. For example if there was a rigid rod extending from the bottom hull through the sailer's body then there would be no need for a righting line as the sailor's weight would be transfed as torque directlyon the bottom hull. Since the feet aren't rigidly attached they can't apply force to right the cat, all the righting force must come via the righting line. So, if it were true that the righting line angle did not matter then you should be able to tie the righting line to the lower beam right next to the bottom hull and still be able right the boat?? In a less extreme case, per ur assumptions it should be equally as easy to right the boat if you tied off to the mast base? I don't think this is the case for either of these examples and I'm suggesting that the lower you tie the rope the more wieght it would take to right the boat and not sure you could right it tied of at the bottom hull?? I haven't tried either approach so please correct me if you have experience that says otherwise. So, my contention is that while it may be true that there is only a slight or negligble differnce going over the hull or diretly to the upper beam, the angle of the rope does matter and as you approach the extreme positions it's impact becomes greater.

No.. All the righting force comes from the sailor weight. The line and his feet only help him keep his position, as far out as possible. If the line is attached lower, near the bottom hull it turns harder and harder for him to keep in place, that's all. The righting moment doesn't change as long as he's able to hold on

You could also take the guy out of the analysis and think of line tension and his feets force against the hulls. In that case, as the attachment point goes down, the line tension increases, but the distance that make the torque (or the cosine of the angle) decreases in the same measure.

Under your same logic you could conclude that it's better to attach the trap wire at the top of the mast. In terms of righting moment it's not. In terms of wire tension yes, a little bit but it doesn't hurt the final goal which is producing torque.

It's a funny discussion, but as somebody said previously, there's no discusion...

There's no discussion because people have already made up their minds but there is more righting moment in over the hull than under. In all of scarecrows pictures there is no righting moment because the person is lying in the water if you drew a picture comparing the proper stance it may become more obvious

The lower the line, the harder it is to hold on to - but it doesn't change the static equation. If the sailor, the line, and and the boat are not moving in relationship to each other, no change in the position angle, length of the line will affect the amount of righting force being applied. The line weight is negligible and the center of the weight doesn't change either. Only the sailors weight and position is important - not how he's braced there.