Alter Cup Notice from USS

The US sailing site says 11/15/12 and the NOR says
4.2. Registration closes at midnight Central Time on after November 16, 2012 and is not refundable.

The email says today. Why not just have it with the F16 nationals the week before after all it is just a regatta because you don't have to qualify ?

Dave, there is a lot of baggage that comes with a USSailing related championship and that baggage can be a burden. Things from sponsorship restrictions to USSailing getting their piece of the gross.

Bert R can fill you in on this call... The championship meeting minutes are thorough, complete and published on line if you want to read about it.

I hope everyone gets good weather.... it's been a bitch lately... no matter where in the country you are.

Too bad more of you didn't participate in the annual meeting, where this was discussed at length.

US Sailing is very much interested in running combined events, and communicated that to me in October 2011. Cost will not be allowed to get in the way.;

In the survey, the sailors say they want the Alter Cup to be a stand-alone event, but the registrations don't seem to be supporting that.

A bid was proposed to use the F16 event as the Alter Cup for 2012, as mentioned minutes are online and Bert would be the best person to answer this question.

Mike

Mike,

I wish to apologize in advance for starting what might turn into a bru-hah, but the poll missed a few things. 1) the poll probably did not capture opinions of most of the people that have participated in past championships because many of them are not internet frequenters and I suspect don't have the patience for this kind of polls. 2) the vast majority of people that participated in the poll probably wouldn't consider themselves for the championship in the short term. They're the ones who pushed in this direction but are not showing up.

The result is an event structured for people that have never attended the event but want to

someday

. I used to be one of those sailors. It is effectively just another regatta that coincides closely with another local event and is losing out.

There is a need for this championship but I think the shape and color of it lies somewhere between what the general populous wants and what the top sailors in the country would consider a worthwhile en-devour. These two view points are not the same.

Thanks Jake.

Just to clarify a few things:

There was a very large percentage of past participants. The survey was disseminated through multiple channels, and this site was not the primary channel.

The old format was not only expensive; it did not draw as intended. A 10-boat event is not considered impressive as a major championship by anyone except a few die-hards. I know they don't accept that, but I've heard it from multiple sources, including past participants.

Absolutely no one wants to

dumb down

the regatta. We need to find ways to make it more relevant and to increase participation. This is proving to be exceedingly difficult, as many sailors are gravitating towards OD events with their limited vacation time and funds.

For that specific reason, I am starting to think that partnered events are the best hope, but we need the support of the OD classes to make this a reality.

Mike

The theory of the case is that the US Sailing Alter cup Trophy is a very worth while endevour... The history and culture of the competitition in all of its previous incarnations is very important to beach cat racers.

What else is needed?

Jake,

Mahalo for standing up for sailors who have to de - rig, shower, and eat prior to attending meetings or teleconferences.

On the other side of this on-going Formula 16 Sailing Festival, including the Nationals and the

Alter Cup,

we will have a base set of fresh information available to share with the multihull public. The range of inquiry and investigation will include a plan to conduct research regarding safety practices for race management, discuss the role of the National Multihull Championship, and to hopefully, begin establishing a schedule of important OSC (Continental & International), National, and Regional events. Scheduling should be a priority for all Classes and Associations.

The former Multihull Council, now known as, the Multihull Racing Committee, under Mike Levesque, is working for all multihull sailors more than ever.

I have been plugging for a

Scheduling Sub - Committee

for over a year. Let's see if there 'is a NEED.'

OK, Bert, what exactly does this mean? I can't think of a single person in the room or on the call that isn't an active sailor and volunteer.

There is an active question here that you haven't answered: Why was the F16 Nationals bid discarded in favor of the stand-alone PBYC event for the 2012 Alter Cup?

Mike

Mike, please publish the minutes where this was dicussed and USSailing agreed that it would not require the $50 per competitor and would waive the sponsorship restrictions. This would be a signicant change in direction from USSailing. Based on my experienced with USSailing USSailing Championships are simply menthod to generate revenue. If USSailing is really embrasing what you are implying in your post then this is indeed huge change but until I see it in print it means nothing.

It's not here.

I remember the day when even having a qualifying event at a combined event was not acceptable according the US Sailing. I guess times, they are a'changing. I don't agree with having a US Sailing championship in conjunction with another event. It should be a free standing championship on par with championships at other national levels. I disagree that the low registration count for this year's Alter Cup is proof that it should be combined. I think the low count is due to it's close proximity to another competing event in location and time and a lot of uncertainty in the part of the sailors as to what the championship actually is. Those that I know that would consider sailing an F16 would rather attend the nationals because it is more of a known value at this point.

Mike,

You know the answer here as well as Bert does, it was discussed more than one conference call and y'all voted to accept the PBYC bid over the StABYC bid, which meant a stand alone event. I did not have a vote, but would have voted with the majority. I don't recall much, if any support for a partnered event, it was viewed as a dilution. Obviously, things haven't turned out as hoped. Hindsight is great, but don't pretend you don't know how it went down.

Mike

Mike, please publish the minutes where this was dicussed and USSailing agreed that it would not require the $50 per competitor and would waive the sponsorship restrictions. This would be a signicant change in direction from USSailing. Based on my experienced with USSailing USSailing Championships are simply menthod to generate revenue. If USSailing is really embrasing what you are implying in your post then this is indeed huge change but until I see it in print it means nothing.

It's not here.

Spot on Dave

Mike,

I didn't mean to portray everything so negatively. I appreciate what you guys are doing and the effort you are putting into it. I just wish there was a better answer.

Yes.... half the country wish's the election had gone the other way.. (How is that working out) Wishing for something else is a waste of time. Children believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy as well.

The event is a BYOB event.... now and in the future.

There are NO clubs with a standing club fleet of cats that can be offered up....
There is no interest in owners donating their boats so that somebody else can race them..
There are no builders who want to market their boats by using a charter discount.
There is no Sugar Daddy who will drop 20K to run the old program.

The event is a BYOB regatta.

So... either the One design classes support it.... or it will die.
Either the sailors support it by showing up... or it will die
Either the people who ran it in the past stop bitching ... or it will die. If you were on the MRC meeting call you know of the tentative plans for next year with the Am Cup..... Support the event or it will die.

We will not screw our volunteer yacht clubs over while cat sailors act like children and wish for Santa to deliver a brand new fleet of 10 cats for them to play with at nominal charge.

The theory of the case is that the US Sailing Alter cup Trophy is a very worth while endevour... The history and culture of the competitition in all of its previous incarnations is very important to beach cat racers.

I suspect that we could ask PBYC to extend the registration deadline.... Let Kevin R know if you can race the event....

Everyone knows that PBYC has an outstanding reputation for delivering a great event..... don't screw them over!

Guys, I am not the enemy. I am trying to balance the wants and desires of some very different groups of people. I am trying to get

better answers

but we only have one championship...

Bert is the voice of the championship committee. There was indeed a lot of discussion, and a vote was taken. I am not hiding behind anything, Bert is the person to answer the specific question.

Like most of you, I would prefer that the championship remain a stand-alone event, but we are listening to lots of sailors who are telling us that they simply cannot support both this event and their annual OD event, and attendance at qualifiers over several years supports that. Bob Merrick stated it here on this forum many years ago, most people chose to ignore him at the time...

As for the discussions about cost, etc. I have stated many times over the past year that this has been between Jack and myself, in his office and on the phone. It comes up in almost every conversation that we have, and he always has the same answer. It is not in the championship committee minutes, because those meetings have been focused on preparing the stand-alone events for 2012 and 2013.

As I mentioned at the council meeting in San Fran, I sat down with Jack in October this year to prep for the meeting, and we discussed this yet again. I noted that people don't believe me, and needed some hard numbers. His answer was simply that we don't even have an event proposal yet, so let's get that going first, and the fees would be part of that discussion at that time.

He is keenly aware that partnering with a class would require a different set of operating rules, which would also relieve his staff of a lot of work, since the classes already do such a great job with organizing these events. So, the costs to US Sailing would be less, and therefore the fee would be able to be reduced.

Regarding sponsorships, the discussions have been nearly the same. Up through this year, we had Rolex as the primary sponsor, and have been allowed to add another sponsor, so long as we didn't diminish the value to Rolex (competing category, logo size, etc.). This was communicated to the club, and rather than coming up with a specific, approvable sponsor proposal, we got more of the same types of comments here: denial, mud-slinging from the past, etc.

At this point, I may just need to be blunt: When someone comes forward with a concrete plan, we can present that and work through the details. If all we ever get is complaints from people that can't let go of the past, nothing will change. The old addage is true: If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem...

Mike

EDIT: Another outside-the-box solution I have been thinking about: Since we primarily have two types of sailors (DH sloop and DH spin), would people support a stand-alone championship that featured BOTH fleets? We would need a second trophy, but this could result in doubling the numbers with minimal effort, and would alleviate a lot of the debate about boats to be used.

I'm not sitting here saying it needs to be like it was. I realize the change had to happen as the boat prices are freakin' out of control. What I do believe, and is not represented in the poll, is that the event should still maintain a level of exclusivity. Entries should be limited and you should have to qualify. The BYOB aspect of it is fine, but the planning will need to be made carefully schedules to avoid falling within a year of a World Championship in the US of that class, or National Championship of that class by 6 months.

I'm sitting here thinking about having the championship as a combined event and it just dawned on me how completely and utterly backwards this is. For years, we fought a losing battle with Liz/Us Sailing over the qualifying events. We were pushed hard out of having them combined with other events, to combined events but separate starts, to free-standing events, then certified clubs, certified PROs, yada yada. It made the qualifiers difficult and expensive to manage, lowly attended, and more separated from the general catsailing community. In some cases, we ended up with PROs that weren't familiar with catamarans and the stand-alone regatta could have been better. So after living through all of this detailed requirement, I'm a little shocked that the qualifiers are out the window and the championship is looking to be combined with another event. This seems really backwards.

The event needs a degree of exclusivity and status to be anything of merit. I think we still need qualifiers but with considerably relaxed requirements. Before Liz accuses me again of wanting to relax the USS membership requirement to discount my opinion, let me state clearly: I believe all competitors of the qualifiers should be US Sailing members. We have had issues with this in our area in the past (not as much an issues as some others) but in some cases, we needed the head count to make the free standing qualifier survive financially and some of those people wanted to sail, didn't care about the championship, didn't want to be US Sailing members, but we needed their entry fee and enjoy their company.

Here's what I think will work. Re-introduce the qualifiers in conjunction with other major regional regattas. Make the actual championship a freestanding event, BYOB, class and location known well ahead of time and not conflicting with that class' US based worlds within a calendar year and not with that class' national championship within 6 months. Limit the actual championship to a 20, 25, or 30 boat fleet. Don't require certified PROs or certified clubs for the qualifier and allow it to be a mixed start of qualify-ees and non qualify-ees at major regional regattas. However, qualify-ees must be US Sailing members at the time of the qualifier. Let Spring Fever have a qualifier enabled fleet, Catfight, etc. If F18 is the boat of the year, F18 sailors can choose to partake of the qualifier in their normal fleet start and be ranked with other qualifier participants for inclusion in the event. We can finally have a legitimate event on a single handed boat too. Eliminate the portsmouth handicap qualifier and make the qualifier part of the class fleet of the selected boat for that championship. Go deep within these results for attendees. Draw for an open spot or two giving someone a chance that might not otherwise normally qualified to provide incentive for more qualifier involvement. Have a couple of limited special case slots for a youth team or other special cases. Stop with the restrictive requirements and let us enjoy the darn thing.

^
|

There's my plan. I'm sorry that I just don't have the patience for these meetings or calls - my opinion is usually discounted or squashed in those meetings anyway.

Jake, agreed, you nailed it.

The Alter Cup has always been an elite event. Keep it an elite event, the best competing against the best.

Very well said!!!

+1. I know we would make an effort to qualify if it didn't require much additional time to make the qualifying events. If the championship was held a few months prior to a major class championship (nationals), possibly in the same venue, that would probably help attendance as it would be an elite event that also prepared you for the championship. This time Alter Cup follows Nationals, and we see the participation issue.

Finally, the social calendar is important, even to those sailors at the top. Last time I did a qualifier (not that I'm currently a top sailor), it was mostly because the party promised to be good-great, which it was.

hmm... what is a North Amercians for a class....
Is it not the best XX sailors competeing against each other?? (I define this as the

Elite

sailors of the class competing for the NAs)

What you guys want is

Special

something Exclusive that only the special sailors get to compete in.

The observation of the facts on the ground is that US Sailors are not going to compete in two multiday national events in a year.... Time and budgets are limited. ... SPECIAL EVENTS do not rise to the top of enough sailors must do events.

This is not new....Special is over rated... Many a year (not always) saw a mad scramble to actually FILL the

Special Event

On Two occasions... I was asked to recommend sailors from my region who A) were competent an B) were likely to make sudden plans to race the 20 boat championship with 3 weeks to spare... The

Special

regatta was just not getting 20 teams to show up for whatever reason ...They managed to fill most of the events. THIS WAS WHEN we were spending 7 K in cash and using manufacturer supplied boats... I understand the appeal of Special.... however, Area qualifiers with an absolute certainity to get one of those

Special

Slots were poorly attended....(the rules to conduct them are a red herring in this debate) Area C sailors failed to show up to qualifiers or put them on their schedule because

Special

was just not a big deal.

Jake's proposal does not solve the underyling problem. Even Special Sailors will not show up for more then 1 major national event a year with their BYOB. We do not get the numbers needed to have a credible championship. (Survey said that 20 teams was a credible championship and the committe set the standard at 15)

The theory of the case is that competing for the US Sailing Alter cup Trophy is a very worth while endevour... The history and culture of the competitition in all of its previous incarnations is very important to beach cat racers.

I believe that Elite sailors at their NA's deserve a chance to win the Alter Cup Trophy and reflect the principals and values of the Championship....

I believe that SPECIAL sailors have the same constraints that every sailor has and they will not part with their time and money... Bottom line... you can't run an event for them that hits a reasonable standard. More the point.... You can't tell

Special Sailors

how they should spend their time and money... This championship is an invitation to compete... nobody makes you spend your money to go. . Nothing is stopping the top F16 Sailors from agreeing amongst themselves to show up and compete... They just are not doing it.

FYI, My point of view was a minority on the committee.

Mark you are correct. 98% of sailors, excluding the pro's, can only do a handful of major (week long) events a year. World's vs. Tybee. Nationals vs. Alter Cup vs. World's.

Which flavor of boat is selected for Alter Cup if its run concurrently with Nationals? U.S Sailing seems fixated on F16's right now, even though there are more F18's in the U.S. I could very well see this turning into a BYOB event where the only boat is the Nacra Carbon F17. IMO that would become a very exclusive event catering to the Olympic crowd. It may be a bad thing for the multihull community in general even if its the elite sailors.

I reject your categorization of me wanting something for myself. I want something special for the Alter Cup. I came to know, respect, and greatly appreciate the people that started it during my involvement with the organization. I would like to see it continue.

The

facts on the ground

you are using are flawed. The previous iteration saw sailors get to sail half the time, face huge insurance fees (chartered boats), and have some aggravation (mostly perceived) with boat variation. The current iteration is butted up against another major championship that people were already planning on when this one was planned and is in direct competition with the other event only a matter of weeks apart.

Both issues are made better with these ideas. I think the BYOB aspect will deal with one of the complaints I heard often that folks weren't getting enough time on the water. Combining it with another event makes it

just a trophy

and the team that wins the event also wins the trophy as a side-note. That's not what I would like the Alter Cup to be.

But you CAN run a respectable and sought after stand-alone event! I don't know if you ever participated in a past Alter Cup but the excitement and joy of competing and/or winning was never lost on any competitor. It was not just another regatta. We've had award ceremonies at City Festivals, in the middle of parades. Hell, we've got a day named after the event in at least one municipality. There is a lot of prestige that comes from the event and if the format hits the mark, I truly believe it will become what it can be.

The F16 was chosen for 2012 because the committee felt that the next Olympics would be held on a spinnaker boat, the Nacra F17 doesn't really exist yet, and the F18 Worlds on the other side of the continent would make boats unavailable. The date was selected to give the event its own weekend, and it was believed that since there are so few of these boats in the country, putting them close to the nationals in time and physical location would increase opportunities for chartering. None of these decisions came without plenty of discussion of the pros and cons of each.

Combining qualifiers with existing cat regattas has been tried, and has also failed (at least once at Roton Point for sure). By and large, people want to sail OD at the local regattas.

Finding certified officials is easier than you realize, many of them are within our ranks.

Personally, I prefer having qualifiers, and making them the only way to get to the finals, even if it's BYOB.

I have been beating the drum that we need to schedule these events at least three years out (we're trying, keep in mind that we are rebuilding from scratch this year).

I like the idea of using the same platform for the qualifiers and finals (if that's what was proposed by Jake above). This has also been discussed by me and Jack as a possibility for the future. Basically, if the 2014 event is to be held on Hobie Dragoons, the qualifiers would be held at existing regional regattas in 2013, and the Hobie Dragoon fleet would serve as the qualifier. Don't go to the qualifiers and/or don't bring a Hobie Dragoon, don't show up at the finals.

For this to work, we'd all need to get on board to support this. In the example above, all Hobie Dragoon sailors (skippers and crews) would need to be US Sailing members. While I used that boat as a non-threatening example, think it through if the finals were to be on a F18 or A Cat. Would people stay home from their local event just to avoid the membership requirement?

I see the loss of qualifiers as a major problem for US Sailing, as there are no other flag-bearing local cat regattas. I am working with Jack to see what we might be able to do, several ideas have been floated, and this will be a project for the winter. Training and rules clinics are on the top of the list. Send suggestions if you have them.

Mike

The scariest part of this to me is that I barely know what a Hobie Dragoon is....which means me (and many I know) probably aren't buying one anytime soon nor does this entice me to go to any length to compete in a qualifier. How many of these are even in the country? Which is fine on it's own - I'm probably not going to go get a Hobie 16 should that be the selected platform (though I don't object to the notion, I'm pretty happy with my current fleet). If you want any chance to have people attend the championship FOR the championship, it needs to be in line with the popular sailing classes. F16, F18, A-cat, H16, etc. (not a comprehensive list)

Eliminating the portsmouth start requirement, as you mentioned previously, opens up a whole new world on the idea of combining qualifying events with local regattas (Roton is definitely NOT a good example - there are examples of this working elsewhere even under Portsmouth). This makes it simple to align the qualifier with the local event and puts some additional validity to the qualification process.

The Hobie Dragoon is a youth development boat used by the French Sailing Federation... pretty sure Mike was just using it as an example.

Then again, the strength of French multihull sailing makes a strong case for having a fleet of youth spinnaker cats... but that is a whole different question!

Ahh - I see that it was just an example. Thanks.

OK, let me put this out there. Would this be supported?

2014: Hobie 16
2015: IWCA Wave
2016: F18

Finals are stand-alone events, BYOB, scheduled in the spring/early summer, four-day race weekend, optional clinic on registration day (fifth day).

Qualifiers the prior year on the appropriate boat, held at local existing regattas meeting all current US Sailing rules, no other way into finals.

Mike

EDIT: Keep in mind, the opinions expressed here are often in direct contrast to what we hear on the beach...