Full-batten jib - better?

Rick Harper has a full batten jib for his boat (Glaser sails?). You'd have to ask him though as far as performance/etc...
On the Nacra 20, I think the full-battened jib is better in heavier winds, and the partially battened jib is better in lighter winds. The full battened jib seems to be very flat up top. This is a Nacra 20 though, not and F18, so I'll be quiet now.

At major F18 events such as World's, can multiple jibs be measured in at the regatta. Perhaps a set of full batten jibs for different wind ranges, or are sail changes during the regatta limited?

Why do you feel the fully battened jib works better in higher winds? Is it because it won't flog? Does it open/close the slot better?

How about reaching with the spin up? Can you get the right shape?

You can only measure in one jib in most classes (all I know). You can replace the battens between races, but there is not much point to it when you have found the right battens (except when going from ultra light to light) in my opinion. The battens are there to let the sail keep it's shape, not change it. Stiffer battens will not flatten the jib substantially in high winds, or will do so only locally and ruin the jibs shape.

The real question is wether the fully battened jibs are faster than partially battened jibs? For mainsails the answer is well known, but they have much more roach and thick masts in front of them. I sailed the Tornado before we got fully battened jibs, and I am not certain at all that the fully battened jib is faster. Getting the right shape into the sail in very light winds is harder in my opinion. and the sail is heavier which dont contribute to a good shape in the light stuff.
The testing done for the olympic multihull back when the ISAF changed the Tornado sailplan had the classic rig actually beeing faster to the top mark than the new rig. This might not be significant as the new rig sails were undeveloped then and the spi-gear add some windage, but still.. Also, I have not seen anything at all about testing fully battened jibs vs partially battened jibs. Perhaps we can learn some more now that the F-18 class is switching?

The arguement that Hobie Europe made for changing the Tiger to a fully-battened jib was that it prolonged the life of Pentex jibs, since they don't flog.

Of course, it could be just another scheme to sell more jibs.

That's it! It's a conspiracy by the manufacturers and sailmakers to sell more stuff! <img src=

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I'm going to put my tin-foil hat back on, now.

But it dont matter much if it is fully battened or not as long as you have it sheeted to the selftacker. Not much flogging then anyway?
I doubt that the pro and fully sponsored olympic Tornado campaigns Roman Hagara e.a. runs would care about the liftime of a flogging jib if partially battened gave performance advantages. Just look at the pace they go trough spins as an example. But what's the performance advantage of a fully battened jib, and why have we never heard about any testing between the two alternatives?

Just out of curiosity, is there a warranty on sails that come with a new tiger?

we just did a F18 measuring session and the fully batten jib is exactly the same shape as the 'soft' jib when laid on top of each other. the cut was slightly different tho' - i think that the fully batten sail had less panels. the differences were pretty unimpressive.
i never get the argument that the battens make a jib last longer - JUST PULL A LINE AND ROLL IT UP! if its flogging on the beach.

The problem is that if the hotshots are all using them, we will all follow suit no matter how this discussion pans out.

here are the H16 for an example.

how does that thing tack? Does it hit the mast?

I haven't got a fully battened jib but I did get rid of the furler and have noticed an improvement in pointing angle as the jib is set about 1.5" lower than previous. I doubt I'll get any improvement from a battened jib beyond longer sail life though.

Tiger Mike

If that were true, since both Infusions and Capricorns have their forestay bridles attached midway down the inside of the hull (instead of on the corner like older Nacra F18s and Tigers), they should be shooting us so high up the course that we can't compete since their jibs are so much lower. Could lowering the jib 1.5" inches really make that much difference in pointing ability?

I'm reporting what I experienced side by side with another boat who we are normally very similar. Maybe my technique was better in those conditions - who knows but the boat was pointing very high with excellent speed when normally I struggle for height. That was the only thing I changed.

Tiger Mike.

Well John, not much substantial on the subject of relative performance between fully battened and partially battened jibs so far. Perhaps I am right and there have been no or little testing? In what classes did the fully battened and selftacking jib originate? The Tornado went fully battened after the 2000 games with some development earlier. Selftacking came late 2000 or 01 I think. Were there any classes with both fully battened jibs and selftackers before the Tornado? If not, have there been done any testing on this it all?
Or am I (we) missing something which is blindingly obvious to the top

tornadoistas

( and F-18s since they also are going fully battened ). Perhaps time to contact a sailmaker and get his opinion on the subject.

Fully Battened all round faster, the jury is still out. I believe? that Tornado's are using both in light airs fully battened and leech battened, but now the rule is open they are longer! Fully battened in heavy airs, as you will find fully battened will hold there shape better. With fully battened jibs the sail maker will be able to achieve a finer entry, which is faster as long as you can sail at a high level as the concentration required is high level, otherwise you will be slow, you will be far better off using a much softer entry sail. Lowering the jib 1.5" would be impossible to notice any difference, if there is, even though we all do it at the front end of the fleet?? I would say that Tigermike was having a good day, and when lowering your jib there is more to consider, did you get the some rig tension, a small and I mean small change would alter the performance of the boat in any given condition. Now I can tell you that the lowering of the new tigers bridle tangs will make a difference that you will notice, not because of the lowering of the jib as such, but the whole package, with the given geometry of the fore stay, fastening height of the jib, jib sheeting angle and the given sail area that fits into this area. By lowering the jib means now the Tiger jibs will be cut with a longer luff, shorter foot and a leech more parallel to the mast, with a better slot. Shorter cord length = less drag, short foot= less turbulence with same sail area = same power all adding to more speed. Now you can ask a sail maker in their eyes newer is always better as that’s how they make their living, but my answer too, do you need a fully batten jib is are you running with the front runners and do you need a NEW “JIB” fully battened or not????

Mark,

I have not seen Tornado jibs without full battens since the rule change. Not since the classic rig at least. Conclusion should be clear based on that, but as you have seen I am not at all certain.

Another interesting thing you said was that rig tension had a large influence on performance. Did you mean shroud tension, and is tighter==better (it is in my opinion, until you get mast rotation problems).

Sailmakers try to make a living, so they naturally want to sell their products. But I have sent an e-mail asking about relative performance between a fully battened and partially battened selftacking jib, and the why..

>>That was the only thing I changed.<<

Pointing angle may not improve significantly as a result of dropping the jib 1-1/2". However, if the only change was lowering the jib, then the jib lead angle would also have changed as a result of lowering the jib. Changing the jib lead angle could have a significant effect on pointing angle.

sm

All T teams use full battens all the time, some run different weights but most just run with one set.

The tuning of your jib battens is as important as your main battens, we play with them a lot....

lowering your jib 1.5" will make a big difference to the sail shape if you leave the sheeting point the same as before. The sail will be a lot flatter, particularly in the bottom.

It is getting late, and I do not really like posting as it can always be read in two or more ways. As I said I am not sure re tee's latest jibs, I did have a discussion with God

Bundy

about it and he's view was the same as I stated. The rig tension is not always better tighter, you need to look at how it affects the mast bend, if you just crank it down and you need to ease the main sheet to straighten the mast to put some shape in the main as the wind lightings, if the rig is crank the tension will take over and keep the mast lower 2/3 a given bend, I think you will find that we all play 2 or 3 holes on the side stays, using the fore stay to adjust the rake. What I was trying to say is that when you change something in this case the jib fixing point buy removing the furler to get the jib lower it will never finish with the same tension. By all means ask a sail maker infact ask as many people in the know, just do not always take it as gospel!! SRM yes it would change the sheeting angle if you did not relocate the jib sheet pully on the chain plate and you do not need to lower the jib to achieve a different sheeting angle there is plenty of adjustment in the standard Tiger jib. Simply if the furler was removed and the jib lowered it would have made more than one change and it would be impossible to truly determine that it was from the lowering of the jib in itself.

Hi Macca, yes sheeting angle is important, but the veiw was that just lowering the jib 1.5" made it faster without considering were the sheeting angle is. PS are you sailing this weekend call me tomorrow LOV Mark

goodnight all <img src=

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Thanks Mark, and goodnight <img src=

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I am not taking recognized best practice from the

gods

as gospel, thats how this thread got started after all. <img src=

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But I am a bit surprised that you are hesitant to post your opinions/views due to different interpretations of your writings. Hope you continue to post here and don't let the

mob

get to you! It's pretty civilized here compared to other forums.

Lowering the jib on the forestay has the same effect as moving the track aft, it opens the slot. It's all relative to the geometry of the jib and the track.

So, Rolf - I think what I have gleaned here is that;

• 1. Fully-battened jibs have a finer entry, but as a result, potentially a narrower performance groove.
  2. Fully-battened jibs hold shape better in certain conditions, and jib-life is somewhat extended.
  3. The lowered tack position (sans furler) can be an advantage if sheeting angle, luff tension and slot are adjusted properly.
  4. Battens in the jib are as critical as battens in the main, and adjustment to tension will be as important (no surprise there).
  5. Mark Laruffa needs to get more sleep.

That sum it up so far?

Sounds like the sum up that I would have concluded.

Dan

hi guys
here is my perhaps unusual take on jibs...
lowering the tack has the the same effect as moving the jib leads aft. this lets the head fall to leeward, opening the top of the slot, but possibly causing leech flutter. all common knowlege.
i sail in strong winds and came up with a fully battened 110%jib that roller furls. the battens are parallel with the luff. it made us point better and stopped leech flutter w/o moving the leads forward. actually, only the bottom batten is full. the other 2 are just very long. i have done sail making and have an industrial machine. this idea is offered for free. i'm not trying to sell jibs here. for our sailing this has been a huge improvement in both sailing performance and ease of jib furling. there photos if intrest is there.
ciao

Roller furling, vertical battens:

Standard on the Hobie Bravo! <img src=

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Good point. For this reason I will try a full battened jib but with battens PARALEL TO THE HEADSTAY. It will be like the old Supercat battens, only extended to the foot.
The idea is to gain area and maintain shape while still being able to roll it up.
Anyone tried this? Suggestions and comments are welcome.

John,

I have not concluded on much yet, except on your point 5. <img src=

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Finer entry? Why is this not possible without full battens? Longer life, perhaps? The low foot.. no big deal in my opinion, as there are more turbulence and less wind further down. But no reason against having the same geometry/outline with or without full length battens.
All in all, with over 600 views on this thread, no reports have been made on superior performance with fully battened jibs. Why? Perhaps becouse there have not been done much testing on it? I dont know, but would dearly like to.

BTW: I asked earlier wether there had been selftacking fully battened jibs before the Tornado. I got an reply by e-mail explaining that the RC-27 had a fully battened jib from the late '80s and the Supercat 22 from '91.