New Formula 28 in France

Having life breathed back into the F-28 class would be really cool. The last F-28s was really some awesome sailing machines.

It also comes in carbon fiber at 1250 kg (however much that is in lbs? I am US) and a bigger mast. I am seriously looking at this.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Nacra A2
www.tcdyc.com

1250Kg? That is extremely heavy for a F-28. Wasn't the minimum weight limit 750Kgs? The website says 850Kgs The F-28s was not exactly family oriented boats, more like pure racers that was insane in any decent breeze.
One Kg is very roughly 2lbs, at least that is the number I use when just reading about stuff while not bothering to do a conversion.

1kg = 2.2 lbs

http://www.onlineconversion.com/weight.htm

Doug, did you win the lottery?
Bill

Bill:

Not exactly. Yea you are right 850 kg and the race version is less with a longer mast. Should be real fast. Are you the same Bill Christopher and I are talking to about snail for us?
That is sweet boat. They have computer renderings of it one site.

Doug

The RC-27 is about 1/2 the weight with roughly the same dimensions. I don't know what the cost is but I'm sure once you've shipped and formula 28 from EU and rig it out it will set you back some change. If you want a family friendly boat that has decent speed, find a Stiletto 27. A fraction of the cost and a nice platform. A Std 27 would weigh in about 1100#s (as per spec sheet)and go up from there depending on how you load it up. I have a Special Edition which is the cruising model and I'm pretty pleased with the performance. It'll still do 15 kts easy (more with a better crew)and its still kid friendly. I've put 10 people on it and had a blast!!!

Its all in what you want out of a boat.

Clayton
S27, H16

Yes Doug, same person.

Doug, check out this all Carbon 32 ft Cat for $150k http://www.lightspeedboats.com/cms/

I'll be VERY suprised if they can deliver the lightspeed at $150 in all carbon.

Maugan
I just talked to the guy who's building them. $150k with sails - all carbon, weighing in around 2k lbs.

Bill

I know thats what they're claiming, but I don't think they've actually delivered one at that price yet.

Have you seen Carbon prices lately?

I believe they've taken orders on that 150k price. I know the guy who's building them and he's a stand up guy. If he says its 150k I believe him.

Yes and I'm getting ready to build a carbon moth, so I am pricing it out. Its going up, but I've said this before, the price of carbon doesnt directly effect the price of a carbon boat. If you price out the amount of carbon in a boat, vs the labor, sails, rigging, etc, its a rather small percentage.

A couple of examples - I put $800 worth of carbon in my 10k Acat. Now I got carbon at $12 per yard and its now about $25 per yard for the same stuff. So this year the price is $850 more in materials than last year.

The moth is going to cost $4k - ish. Carbon is probably $500 - $750 of that.

On a 32 ft cat, think about the stuff that isnt carbon, sails, rigging, tramp, paint, labor, motor, cushins, hardware, core material, epoxy, tooling, etc.

By using prepreg they reduce labor and weight, so its still "worth" it.

I predict carbon will come down again once more capacity comes online. The aerospace demand is actually a good thing for the boat industry, longer term they will drive innovation, and increase raw material capacity and reduce costs.

Do you think that Boeing, Airbus, etc are just going to sit idle while carbon doubles again? They will either find new sources, push their suppliers to increase capacity, find new fabric that is equal or better than carbon. Or all three will happen.

Too much demand is good for supply, longer term. I'd be more worried if there wasnt any demand and we had carbon coming out our *ss. Then supply would dry up for good and prices would go up, but wouldnt come back down.

Bill

If you want an all carbon cat check out this 2nd hand Marstrom M20, IMHO its decently priced at €14.750 (US$17.725).
Click here and scroll down to see the ad...

Too many engineers on this forum and not enough macro economic grads. I guess all the economics majors are wealthy and sail leaners.

All the engineers are broke and sail cats.

Flame on.

$17k is way high.

Here's why -
No m20 class racing - you would be forced to race an open class - who wants to do that for $17k - not me. Oh wait there's one in Florida - does that make a class?
Its in Netherlands - cant inspect it, needs to be shipped
Poor customer support from Marstrom - parts are hard to get out of sweden and very expensive.
Its got the old style snuffer - what no snail or Marstrom tube snuffer?

I'd rather wait for the Blade 20.

Bill

Guys:

Send her an email geraldinelorber@wanadoo.fr. I got got some NICE photos. There is a carbon race version with longer mast. Bill I will eamil then to you.

Doug Snell

Here is email content:

Hello,

We have just come back from the Vannes Boat Show, Brittany, where our MCM 28' was shown for the 1st time (I have attached some pictures).

Visitors have found the MCM 28' really beautiful and attractive and we also had a great feedback from the journalists.

Here are the spec info:

Architects: Benoît Cabaret / Nigel Irens
Length over all: 8,50 meters
Beam: 5,17 meters
Draft: 1,70 meters
Weight: 850 kgs
Mainsail area: 30 m²
Solent area: 9,50 m²
Spinnaker: 60 m²

Price: 38 100 euros including taxes or 31 850 euros without taxes.

I remain available for any questions you may have.

No doubt.

I`m not convinced yellow wetsuits work with blue booties. Nice looking boat though if you can get over the crew`s dress-sense.

Engineer, broke and sailing cats. Yep, I fit that describtion to the letter as well !

But then again. I actually own my boat and not my bank.

Wouter

Man, that boat is quoted in the add to have had a 2003 new value (buying price) of 32.000 Euro's ; it is now after 2 seasons of sailing on offer for 14.750 Euro = 46 % of 2003 new price. That was 8500,- euro devaluation (over 25%) per season !

That is one way to get rid of some excess money !

Simply amazing that some owners can accept such a drain on their resources. Yeah I say that this is a bargain price for that M20.

Wouter

Just checked with some fellow multihullers here in Norway, who was very active in the F-28 class while it existed. The design shown on the website dont measure in to the class rules as they were. Hulls dont have enough headrooom and there are many things about the rig that is not optimum for a true F-28. They think it looks more like a CDK F-28 from 1988 that has been converted into a cruiser. Final comment was "Nice boat, but no Formula-28. Perhaps somebody found some old moulds they could use and live on the F-28 name..". Their opinion, but still a nice boat.

The Ventilo M2 (28 ft.) weighs in at 375kg according to the website of ventilo.
And it is very fast! In the last Bol d'or at the lake of geneva the M2 beat all but one of the Descision 35 on elapsed time and made it to second overall.

i've actually been to the Vannes Boat Show and met the MCM people there.
no way they used old moulds! they made new ones according the architects plans... and, i'm not a specialist, but i think nigel irens is and knows how to make a F28!!

yeah, right, of course this is the best!!
just for fun, any idea of how much it costs?

>any idea of how much it costs?
100'000 SFR ~ 64'000 Euro ~ 77'000 USD (without VAT)

The crazy thing is, that Ventilo (Favre) has allot of orders for the M2. Last thing I heard, he sold something like 10 M2 in the last year

Herve, I also think Nigel Irens know how to draw a F-28, but like I said, this does not look like a Formula-28. Perhaps the marketing guys at MCM ran a bit wild with it, or they dont refer to the same Formula 28 rules as I think about? After all, the class is dead, so perhaps they have made some new rules? Formula 28 boats are not exactly family oriented, they are racers, so the market for a pure F-28 is very limited. At the end of the class, they raised the minimum weight and did other rule changes to try to make the boats more versatile. But it did not work and was the end of the class.
The MCM boat lacks the accomodation area specified in the class, the boom is shorter than max, the bowsprit is not at max length (can be 1.6 meters in front of the bows), the mainsail and solent lacks area.. It would be left in the wake behind a proper F-28.
Besides, why would Nigel Irens draw a new F-28 in 2005, when the class has been dead for more than 10 years with no signs of resurrection?

Not to boast, but the guys I referred to earlier probably have loads more experience in the F-28 class than Nigel Irens. They won the F-28 worlds three times in a row with their own homebuildt design "XOZ" (pronounced Exocet, like the SAS missile).
http://www.flerskrog.org/Flerskrog/Flerskrog_Index_Images/XOZ1.jpg
http://www.flerskrog.org/Flerskrog/Flerskrog_Index_Images/XOZ2.jpg

Wouter, I am no good at posting photos. I have just received an email from MCM with photos attached.
Maybe you already have them, but I will forward the email to you.

This is what I got in email with pics. Think racing version is less kg with a longer mast.

Doug

Here are the spec info:

Architects: Benoît Cabaret / Nigel Irens
Length over all: 8,50 meters
Beam: 5,17 meters
Draft: 1,70 meters
Weight: 850 kgs
Mainsail area: 30 m²
Solent area: 9,50 m²
Spinnaker: 60 m²

Price: 38 100 euros including taxes or 31 850 euros without taxes.

Yes, that's the same email.