Pro or not..

I think everyone should want to compete against the best in their sport whatever it is. The good thing about sailing is that even when you are old/older you can still compete with the best if you have the knowledge. Plus, racing against the best let's you know how you are progressing.

And believe me, I know all about how hard it can be since I moved to Pensacola with 3 years sailing experience on Hobie 16's and about 6 races total under my belt.

IMHO it can only be good, because the amateurs can learn while sailing alongside (behind) the pro's. But the pro's maybe worried about amateurs bumping into their hulls and messing up their game. Fair ? Why not ? Best way to improve yourself at anything is to always expect more and get in the game with people with superior skills. Fair for the pro's ? I assume it must always be nice to see the amateurs behind, remembering you that at one point you were one of them. I think that there is much more to it than the shiny cup at the end of the day, getting together is the most important thing.

Sailor classification is defined by ISAF, .pdf]sailor classification

Basically, if you make money from the sport you're a professional. Not all professionals win regattas since you may be employed in the industry but not necessarily the best racer.

In general, I think it is a good idea to mix the two. There are not many sports left where a recreational participant can mingle with the elite. The recreational participant gets to see rigging options, hear advice and learn from up-front close contact with the best in their sport. Maybe, just maybe - they can even have rights on a port-starboard situation or get a puff at the right time and sail over one of the best in their sport (hey…. it happens). It is an added bonus when the professional is open and engaging – in essence helping those who support his/her livelihood (or part of his/her livelihood).

Do I think they have a great advantage? Yes, but it is because they worked for it. You cannot begrudge their dedication and efforts at making a living at something we do for fun.

I'm for it (Pro's or Olympians sailing in regatta's).

There are not many sports that you can say that you participated with the best in the world.

*Distance Running (10k, 15k, 1/2 Marathon, Marathon)
*Sailing

Are the only two that I'm aware of (although someone mentioned golf -- but only if you win the Amateur title).

So, as tshan mentioned, I'd like to:

- look at how they rig their boat,
- watch what tactics they use while sailing
- try and keep up
- listen to the stories so that I can
- learn a little more

If they let me send in $350 to play golf at The Masters with Tiger and Phil next month I'd be all over it.
We have that same opportunity in sailing every year.

Just like in golf, you can have a good hole or a good race and beat a pro. Those are the things that keep people coming back.

The equalling interesting issue is about Catagory C.... Advertising on the sails.

Is the NASCAR look good for our niche of the sport?

The majority of our sailing is owner funded.. Yacht Clubs don't mix the two.

I hear some grumbling about the NASCAR look but nothing seems to have come of it.

What's the deal in other areas of the country...

Advertising on boats... OK... Tolerated... or Frowned on?

Before anyone else mentions it, I had a NASCAR boat. Not because I was a pro, but because I needed to find a creative way to buy a new boat that I otherwise couldn't afford. I was new to Hobie Cats, and everyone welcomed me with open arms.

It's now 11 years later, I'm on my third brand new boat, and I've spent an inordinate amount of time giving back to the sport over the years. I'm biased, but I'd like to think that my having sponsors all those years ago was a positive.

As for others, I've seen plenty of cats with sponsors, notably the distance racers. I actually think it adds an element of prestige to the general public (hey, those guys must be GOOD!)... <img src=

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There are also a handful of boats with one or two small sponsors, which have always been welcomed, and I've never heard any complaints about it at Hobie regattas.

In my opinion, we're not really in a position to turn away boats just because they have stickers on them. Yacht clubs may choose to go that route, more power to them, but I don't think it does us any favors.

Mike

I think absolutely YES. <img src=

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Ok Mary

Those benefits would be what exactly?

We are talking about several different things here as I see it.

1) Builders sponsoring factory teams ... or perhaps representing the boat themsleves at a regatta.

Part of the deal is that these individuals are supposed to be helpful and share knowledge, boat tunning, etc etc. They want to sell the boat to me and others so their attitude is usally

Helpful

This of course is far more succesful then taking the

win at all cost

attitude.

I think most of us view these individuals as great assets and we want them to come race with us.

However, other aspects are not positive in my opinion.

2) Another option is for an owner to pay for, or subsidize a rock star pro sailor to help the owner win a regatta. This is common in big boats and I have witnessed blow back when this happens in small cats.

The resentment is directed specifically at the individual and it's not subtle. IMO... Not good for the sport.

3) The final example is a sailor or team that goes out and gets corporate sponsorship and raises the competition level to now include fundraising!

This is a minor variation on Richie Rich going out and purchasing top flight equipment that may give him an edge on the race course. However, this usally corrects itself in a year. Usually Richie Rich finds that he wants to play with other people with $$$ and moves up to the $$$$ class.

Basically, you feel the playing field is not level and competing in the game while handicapped makes the game not worth playing.

Again, people are resentful that the game is being screwed by XXX BUT... they really can't say anything. It's not against the rules and more then one

sponsored boat

is on the course. Moreover, if they bring up the subject... they are told.

Hey... money is always an issue in racing... deal with it.

I don't think we would actually know if sponsorship has a down side in this example. The sailor probably just drops out and goes to another competitive sport or changes classes to one where the class principals are more in alignement with his.

I figure that since yacht clubs have been running for 80 or 90 years and these issues are as old as two boats deciding to have a race.... they just might know something about how to manage the sport.

Usually, Richie Rich opts to play against other owners with equal resources and so this self corrects pretty quickly. The sailors with more ordinary means compete in their classes. Nobody is able to bring their personal buisness/ write off or their fundraising prowess into the game.

Bottom line... Sponsored Factory Teams... Good for the sport. Everything else... best handled by Corninthian rules and peer pressure. Hired pro's on your boat and Catagory C advertising... No good!

Your milage may vary!

Sorry, but I don't understand what all that has to do with putting advertising on your sails and having the

NASCAR look.

I think you should be able to put as much advertising on your sails as you want to. And if you can get somebody to pay you for it, so much the better! <img src=

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Certainly does not have anything to do with whether you are a good sailor or a bad sailor.
Well, maybe whether you are a good salesman or a bad salesman. <img src=

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So why do MOST classes NOT allow advertising?

You know... plain (white usally) sails.

Nobody is arguing about who is fast or slow on the water...

This is a debate over the rules we play by!
We have equipment rules.
we have competitor rules.
we have the racing rules on the water.

You need all three for the sport...

You just keep saying

Why is that for the better?

Pro's are evil <img src=

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I'm a moderately crappy sailor. Is there anyone out there who would like to buy me a new boat that I can race? I'll put stickers all over it if necessary. <img src=

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I've heard it said that when you sail with the same people all of the time your fleet will detune and become slower. Most of the time when pros show up it makes everyone step up to the plate and sail better.

I'm not sure if I understand you exactly, but I will add that that is why one-design beachcat racing is is so cool. For example, pretty much, if you spend $10,000 on a brand new Hobie 16, that's it, you're done, no need to drop anymore dough. (I've seen guys win races on $1000 H16's) There is noting else to spend your money on to make the boat go faster other than sailing. I saw a guy last summer win a race against some of the best 16 sailors in the world on a beat up, scavenged together (2003?) H16.

Other classes are different, but for the most part in the sailing world beachcat racing is cheap. The sponsor thing is less of a factor, because being rich is less of a factor.

Who sponsors beachcat teams here in the US other than small businesses anyway? The dollar amount is nominal if any.

Mark,
The invitation still stands for you to come over and peel the stickers off all of my Worrell sails if it bothers you so much.We've been through this before.
They do get attention at regattas ,mostly from people who are interested in getting into cat sailing. When they start asking questions I try to get 'em in to it.If you think this hurts sailing, then that seems to fit your ongoing agenda of alienating the cat racers we have. Keep over-thinking this kinda stuff and you'll end up sailing by yourself.
Look forward to seein' you at Spring Fever, so I can give you a boot in the butt. <img src=

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p.s.

So why do MOST classes NOT allow advertising?

For the same reason most yacht clubs don't allow multihulls. 'Cause they're living in the past(w/ their head up their posterior) and relish the archaic English based racing rules.

I think it was Colby who pointed that out to the California boys when he came down to put on a race clinic

hijack- What classes don't allow advertising. I was kinda planning on pasting my business name down the side of my boat and try to write it off.

Isn't it interesting to note that no EU or Aussie sailors have much to say on this subject? They're probably chuckling at us.

This thread was started because a master uni-rig sailor was testing a boat at a regatta??? Congratulations to him, Where else than on a race course can you get better testing? I, unfortunately, missed a H14 clinic put on by him when he told everyone exactly what he does and why (no secrets) and then proceeded to kick everyone's a$$ in the subsequent races. Tells me there's only so much you can do with boat speed and it gives little old me hope, I only wish there were more

pros

to go around in the USA.

Hi There

I'm not sure what Aussies would say to be honest, I've just sailed in the Taipan State Titles, which is a category C event. The most signage on a boat I saw was, GOODALL YACHT SAILS in big letters on a big head Taipan main, which was on the mast of Garys FCA Blade, other than that just a couple of AHPC website stickers.

Regards

Especially when they have rainbow coloured sails!

just got a new set, they are sky blue, still evil though...

I have no idea. They are my sails and my hulls, and I don't think anybody should have the right to tell me I can't put the name of my company on my boat or paint my sails pink with yellow polka dots. <img src=

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The only possible limiting factor should be whether the advertising is in good taste. (Although, even the oldtime sailing ships had naked women out on their prows. <img src=

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Is the problem that other sailors think the sailors with advertising on their sails are better sailors, or

professional

just because it appears they are being sponsored by businesses?

So what? That has nothing to do with their sailing ability. As I said before, it just shows that they are better salesmen. And besides, the more stuff they stick on their sails, the heavier their sails and the more it slows them down. <img src=

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Sails are natural billboards, and we ought to use them to help defray our costs of sailing -- or at least to promote our own businesses. We put advertising on our cars, so why not on our boats?

What if I decided to put bumper stickers on my sail and hulls from every state and every park and every resort or restaurant or country I have ever sailed at -- would that be illegal, too? <img src=

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What if I put advertising tattoos (temporary, I hope) on my body where they can be seen? Would that be illegal?

I have not been in very many regattas, but the few I have attended included Aruba (Olympians and professionals taking part), UK F18 Nationals (professionals included) and the Spitfire Europeans (all amateur (as far as I know!)).

In every case, all sailors were willing to help each other out, with loan equipment for repairs, and tips on rigging. I was parked next to one of these sailors throughout one of these events, and they were helpful to everyone who asked. The F18s even had training days beforehand and debriefs during the regatta, given by the paid sailors.

You can't get better than that, and basically for free.

I have also seen some 'unsportsmanlike' behaviour on the race course, by some of these people, but I realised that's all part of the (their) game, and they're pushing it to the limits!

I was very tempted to protest one of the Gold medalists, but figured I was motivated by the chance to say I had done so, rather than because I could benefit by any redress I might have been awarded! On the whole, their presence is very positive.

Mary, I think the whole ban on advertising goes way back to when US Sailing was called the US Yacht Racing Union. They used the word

Corinthian

quite a bit back then. It was supposed to be a

Gentleman's Sport

, like Golf, where rich people got together on the weekends, wore funny clothes and showed everyone how much money they had, thus, there was no need for sponsorships to pay for sails and equipment. There was no money in winning, just a silver bowl or pickly dish.

Dennis Connor was hated by some when he turned the America's Cup into a full time job vs. a few weeks in June, way back in the 1970's, the years after Ted Turner and Gary Jobson won it (1977?)

If you look at most big-boat monohull regattas, it's still that way (Big boats, meaning 40'+). They do however hire Pro's to drive their boats, but they have put limits on just how many Pro's you can put on each boat.

Well, here are some of the definitions of

corinthian,

and I guess they fit us all perfectly. <img src=

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Noun 1. Corinthian - a man devoted to the pursuit of pleasure
man-about-town, playboy
hedonist, pleasure seeker, pagan - someone motivated by desires for sensual pleasures

Co·rin·thi·an (k-rnth-n)
adj.
1. Of or relating to ancient Corinth or its people or culture.
2. Architecture Of or relating to the Corinthian order.
3. Elegantly or elaborately ornate.
4. Given to licentious and profligate luxury.
n.
1. A native or inhabitant of Corinth.
2. A luxury-loving person; a bon vivant.
3. A wealthy amateur sportsman, especially an amateur yachtsman.

pagan

. I may have to change my boat's name.

Oh for the love of....just because I've got sponsorship on my boat doesn't mean I'm going to play unfairly - that is what you're saying right? Besides, the only real Pro that I know is JC and I look forward to every opportunity I get to race against him.

I ditto what Mary keeps repeating; I couldn't do as much in this sport if it weren't for sponsors. I think you're just jealous about our great looking boat. And while Todd may let you come peel his decals off, that offer does not extend to mine.

You would probably argue that the result of not allowing pro's is because they take the game too seriously. Clearly, I'm not speaking on behalf of the pros out there, but I allege it's the Corinthians who actually take this too seriously.