I would argue it's the Corinthians who get pissed when pro's show up with -free- equipment. We could all go a whole lot faster on a brand new boat with brand new sails and a brand new harness, to say nothing of being able to sail with a guy who does it for a living. <img src=
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Still, I would prefer to be able to race with pro's when it comes to this sport, and by that I mean, against pro's. I know there is no way I will beat them but as long as they are willing to put on a free clinic before/after/during a regatta, and explain some of the finer points to us weekend warriors, I'm all for it.
And if you ever get a lucky shift and beat Randy to A mark, well, you will have bragging rigths for at least a week or two! I like having them at the regattas so I can ask questions, as long as they are willing to answer, I'm all for it. If instead they want to be A-holes about it, then I think I might -accidently- drive my Inter 20 right into them...:o That Karma thing. <img src=
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But that brings up another question, Who's a Pro? Does owning a catamaran dealership make a guy a Pro? Does building cats for a living make you a Pro? How about sail makers, are they Pro's? Are they only Pro's when they are being paid to test sails and maybe given new boats to use as a test platform?
I think not, for our discussions. On the other hand, if a guy is PAID to race the boat, not build it, etc. then he is a
Pro
in my book. Or, if he was once paid to race, and was good at it, he's a Pro. Like racing a weekend buoy race against Russel Couts, or something like that, vs. racing against Kirk Newkirk, who is not paid to sail but sells boats.
Still, I would rather the Pro's came to our local races as it improves the quality of the competion, usually. As far as a Pro racing in the
Corinthian
Alter Cup??? I don't know that that has ever been brought up.
About the attached photo; my company did pay for the stickers and paint on the spinnaker only. I was hoping to get them to pay for a new set of sails for the next year, but they went bankrupt instead, I never got a dime out of them for sails or equipment... <img src=
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of course I am not saying that. (I make all of the CBYRA events Catagory C to accomodate you.... I also count on nobody paying attention to the CBYRA rules).
The issue is one about the
good of the sport
and how do you manage it.
Eg... should the guy with carbon fiber prosethetic legs be allowed to run the regular olympics? For sure, he is not cheating.
Should Joe's Meat shop Inc, and the owner, Joe be allowed to advertise on his Hobie 16 and thus write the boat and all of his expenses off on his buisness as an advertising expense at your standard Hobie division points regatta.
You could take Mary's position... who cares.... its' a pro am game.
Alternatively. you could ask
Will Joe's actions have a corrosive effect on the pecking order in the Hobie 16 class? Will some people say... Hmm... Not a game I will compete in.
The host yacht club and the class associations make those decisions. Almost universally, they do not tolerate this mixing of pro and corinthian sailing ... they understand its not good for the game they are running. It's part of the reason they give trophies and not cash prizes.
The IHCA allows catagory C but allows organizing authorites to restrict this practice. They reserve the right to brand National and World events?
Does anyone know if specific divisions or Hobie clubs have restricted this in the past? Catagory C is a relatively recent addition to the rule book.
I don't care who sails what. But, if you're one of the best sailors in world and you're being supplied by the factory I think you have an obligation to state the fact, if for no other reason than simple courtesy. If simple courtesy is beneath you, that's your call.
We week-end warriors are paying the bills. We are the ones buying what few boats are being sold. In recognition of that, a simple declaration is not too much to ask. A level playing field is not achievable, but I would like to know how big the bumps are.
Of course I'm not a big racer but here is my opinion, fwiw. If someone gets sponsors to help with his equipment it doesn't make him a pro. (Like Mary said, it makes him a good salesman) Others complain about said person getting newer equipment when we have to use what we can scrounge up. If the issue is equipment, weather he buys it or gets it by sponsorship, why not protest the guy who does really well (financially) and is able to just go out and buy the equipment? Its the same thing... there will always be inequalities because of this (money) issue.
Some guys have talent (discussed in another thread not to be done again!) and others can learn really well and become proficient enough to be at the top of the fleets consistantly. Would you consider them pros? Not if they don't get paid you say? What if they beat some
pros
?
Bottom line is, pro or no pro, the idea is to go out and sail. Try to be the best that you can if thats what you want and who knows you may just end up beating a
pro
at some point. For me, its sailing with others trying to make the boat go as fast as I can. If I can do well then I've accomplished what I've set out to do.
I say we all Play together... AND PLAY NICE!!!!! <img src=
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Clayton
Karl, as Mark just posted, the Hobie class rules allow Category C advertising.
As for the host of other questions by Mary and others, there are clear definitions in the rules and ISAF regs on what constitutes advertising, and what constitutes being a
Pro.
As for an OA deciding to limit advertising that is otherwise allowed per the rules of a class, that would need to be in the NOR, and you should expect that it
could
impact the turnout at your event (people aren't likely to start peeling stickers just to attend your event).
In general, this is one of those politics and religion issues, I think. There's no way everyone is ever going to get on the same side of the fence.
Since there is a variety of options available, the best course may be to decide what matters to you, and find the class and type of event that suits your preference rather than trying to change the events and classes to suit your preference.
Mike
Mike
the Hobie 16 probably has the longest set of traditions in place and the class has run their own events for years and years. Do you have a policy or class culture? You don't see any NASCAT 16;s out there.
Is there a common practice? Does the class culture stomp on Joe and his Joe's Meat Market program and make it clear that he is not playing nicely in the sandbox?
The Nacra 20's and the Worrel/Tybee grew together and so the NASCAT look and culture are accepted. (Don't worry Todd... you don't have to worry about me ripping the stickers off your boat over your cold dead body)
I know I have seen Coca Cola branded H16 boats that come from the Mexican Worlds? or ISAF Youth games? and nobody has been forced to take the stickers off.
If you did take the stickers off you could be protested. That's how the boat was delivered by the factory. And, according to class rules the boat has to be sailed...
as supplied by the Hobie factory.
<img src=
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multi-post reply:
OK, there was a time that I couldn't sail at a Nationals because I wasn't good enough. Now there is discussion to get rid of people that are to good. <img src=
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People should be able to get whatever sponsorship they can and paste the stickers all over if they want. (although Bru-cat made me dizzy).Great marker boat on different tacks.
I do think people want to help but often don't know what to do. I always asked for volunteers by telling someone that I needed them for a job, who would help them and what they needed to do(railroad style).I can't think of anyone not agreeing to help. my 2 shillings
Hi Mark,
Yes, my boat that I referred to was a Hobie 16. There are several other Hobies (including 16s) that race regularly that have sponsors, including at least one Youth team. The Puerto Rican and Brazilian teams always have sponsors so they can attend NAs.
The only year that special provisions were made for NAs (that I'm aware of) was 2005 when the H16s were in Ventura on supplied boats. The Worlds are also supplied boats (Coca-Cola, etc.).
We just want more boats on the water. No one has come to an event with lots of money and a new (sponsored) boat, and won the event. Even if that happened, I don't think anyone would reject them, I think they would see that as a reason to figure out why they got beat and try to win the next time.
I'm talking about non-H16
pros
here, not Enrique, who comes in with Red Bull and Suzuki and kills us on a charter boat. Even if we gave him a 1983 boat half-filled with water, he'd probably kill us. And that's the point. On most of our boats, you need time on the water in the fleet to win. The rest is just extra weight and drag...
Pat, BRU Cat made ME dizzy! And, it was almost always at the back of the fleet, so if you were finding me near you, chances are you were getting killed too... <img src=
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Mike
Why would anyone object to someone having a few stickers on their boat? If you can find a sponsor to keep the costs down a little then IMHO that's awesome.
It doesn't necessarily say anything about how professional they are though.
As for the Pro's, the ones I have met so far are very helpful and are responsible for taking the sport as a whole to another level.
Edit: The only case that I know of where some yacht had to remove his stickers was in Belgium (where else? <img src=
alt=
/>), they where promoting a political campaign.
I love competing on the race course against pros. It is awesome to watch how smoothly they sail if you are lucky enough to get close enough to watch. I've even stayed in dirty air and let a pro roll right over us just to be able to watch their technique.
I've also found them very open on giving advice - in one case a pro came over to us on the water one time between races and discussed some tuning issues.
As for stickers - I think they make the sport look more colorful and attractive to the public and are a great way of offsetting some of the costs of racing. Just 'cause you have a bunch of stickers on the boat don't make you fast. Quality time on the water is what counts. In the classes I'm involved with (F18 or Hobie Tiger OD) the class rules are tight enough that I don't think a team can buy a clear advantage with money unless they invest it in a coaching program under a professional or use it to travel to big events to gain experience.
Awwww ,Come on Mark,
I've got a bunch of sails I need the stickers off of and It's way harder than you'd think to get 'em off without ruining the sail.You could get out some of your aggression on 'em.I'd love to have a pure white sail. I'll bring a set to Spring fever just to let you practice on, cuz that's the swell kinda guy I am.We'll talk about this there over a cold barley sandwich.
Do you honestly think guys like me, Jake,Kirby,etc. are a threat to the sport because we have stickers on our sails. Just like I've told you every year when you bring this up, for every dollar that has been donated to my team I've spent at least a $100 of my own.I always said I oughta just put my Credit card number on the sail,cuz that's my sponsor. 100:1 is a pretty dangerous spending ratio ,Think about it, since you like to over think stuff.
Bwaaaahaaahaaa! Boy...I say boy, that's the truth right thar.
My wife just offered me $1,000.00 to race in the Macho Man. Does that make ME a PRO?
As boring as NASCAR is, it would probably be worse than it is if the cars were almost all white, with just the manufactures name, possibly logo, and a number painted on the cars. There is shear genius in marketing when it comes to NASCAR, otherwise how could something so dull be so successfull?
No, but it does make you a stud...that is....unless she's trying to get a weekend alone with her boyfriend. What was her name again? <img src=
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Lola.
Take a look at the article in Sailing World this month
The fledgling Club Swan 42 class is building its base and its vitality by pitting talented amateurs shoulder-to-shoulder.
by Stuart Streuli
The article recounts the history of how to handle the Pro / AM nature of the sport.
Most of the favorable points that supporters brought up in this thread of the Pro/am game are also noted in the article. The fuzzy lines for this game date all the way back. Rules have come an gone or been ignored for ever.
So,
In a NYYC survey... 43% felt that proffesionalism was a problem. Just under half thought that the pro's should not compete in the amateur ranks! (What is it for cat sailors ... are we that much different from the rest of the world)
The Mumm 36 class cratered when the amateurs stopped playing.
The most proffesional catamaran class in the USA was the Tornado Class...No restrictions on advertising or proffesionalism. Total North american boats that go racing. maybe 10... number of regattas in USA 3.
Total left after the Olympic carrot taken away ??? Regattas scheduled in 08 ZERO!
Yet the amateurs LOVED racing against the pros (That was my experience as well).... Hmm.. my take home point... the mix is not sustainable.
the next big class became the Farr 40 class which limited the pro's contribution to 4 on the boat.
The NYC guys created a new class and new boat from scratch the Swann 42 where the fundamental rule is no play to pay.
So... The big point is to address the question.
what is the proper balance of pro / am for catamaran class growth.
Seems to me... that proper balance would have as a first step. No advertising on the sails at all events below a North American championship. (put the stickers on and off as needed. If you want to keep them on for your sponsor you .... you can race in the pro class for your boat.
(The Low Rent Regatta did this for years with a manufacturer class racing seperately from the Amateur class
This no advert rule is almost a universal principal of yacht clubs and most classes around the country. Maybe we should follow the lead!
And while we are at it, I think advertising should also not be allowed on T-shirts and hats, and beer sponsors for regattas should not be allowed.
My opinions.
When are you a professional: When you are racing sailboats full time, and are paid to do it.
What do other amateurs feel about competing with professionals on the racecourse: When I have gone to a
professional
event I mentally
block them out
from the results, studying how we have done against the other amateurs instead.
Fair or not: I know we are not competing on an equal basis.
Good for the sport or not: I dont think mixing amateurs and pros in any sport is good for the sport.
The pros bring both good and not so good to the sport. My thinking is that if we want to grow the numbers in the sport of sailboat racing we should not mix pros and amateurs. We race to win, and amateurs will very, very, rarely win against professionals. We can enjoy and shine in our own progress, but in the end racing is about winning, not how much better you have become. Many say this is not the case, but in the end, honestly, you race to win. Digress: There being only one winner is another reason why we (catamaran racers) should emphasize the social aspect of going racing.
(The Low Rent Regatta did this for years with a manufacturer class racing seperately from the Amateur class
This no advert rule is almost a universal principal of yacht clubs and most classes around the country. Maybe we should follow the lead!
Mark,
You've gone off the deep end. Stickers
on and off
? It takes me anywhere from 25 to 40 hours to design, manufacture, and apply the graphics on one of our Team Seacats sails and if I were charging full price for it, the job would be about $1500. Pulling them off takes about 30 to 40% longer than applying them.
I think part of the distinction being grossly missed here is that none of these guys that sail in our catamaran regattas could be considered pros - I'm CERTAINLY not a pro yet I carry sponsors.
I was at a monohull regatta a couple of years ago where one of the winning boats was protested at the end of the regatta because
he was a pro
. He IS a sailmaker and he wins a lot of regattas (and has been known to shave a rule or two) but he is not a professional sailor though his profession is in sailing. The protest was eventually tossed but it did make us sit around waiting hours for the awards presentation.
Examples like this are simply bad sportsmanship - sore loser if you like. If I race a catamaran PRO on the water and I get beat, I got beat by a better team.
I do agree, however, that in cases of big money that the direction of a class could get frustrating for some owner/sailors but I think you only see these dramatic affects on teams that require much more than two people on the boat - I think the drastic difference in financial investment and performance can be cause for a lot of frustration but I also believe that this should be regulated by the individual class - not the regatta.
There is probably 4 or 5 catsailors in the US that could be considered
pro
anyway so why are we even having this conversation?
We race to win, and amateurs will very, very, rarely win against professionals. We can enjoy and shine in our own progress, but in the end racing is about winning, not how much better you have become. Many say this is not the case, but in the end, honestly, you race to win.
but in the end racing is about winning
But winning for me is a relative thing. I still get excited in the small wins I have at each regatta. The ONE time I get to the A-mark first. The ONE time I didn't follow the pack and pulled out a first, in ONE race.
The guys that go to the Pro-Am type of events in other sports do it for the social aspect as well as the chance to have that small win. Or to have one of the Pro's give them a word of encouragement, or coaching tip.
Most of us are already trying to beat the
local pro
in our own areas. It's how we gauge our performance. Then one day we wake up and we are the
local pro
. Either through experience, or attrition.
I think in the end there are events that the PRO's don't want amatuers in, and visa-versa.
But when I wanted to pump up support for a youth event, one of my first thoughts was,
how do I get a PRO, big name, hot-shot to come and talk to the kids?
Winning can be a relative thing, but the big thing is to be at the top of the list, isn't it? <img src=
alt=
/> There is only room for one (person/team) at the top, so there is no big surprise that attrition is a problem in racing.
how do I get a PRO, big name, hot-shot to come and talk to the kids?
That is on the fringe of the question, but OK. If the world champion was an amateur or a pro, what difference would it make to the kids?
Winning can be a relative thing, but the big thing is to be at the top of the list, isn't it? <img src=
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No, I'd be very happy with being number 10. <img src=
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I'd be even happier to be getting paid to go sailing and racing everyday.
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good discussion Rolf...
Hey Jake, I'm gonna have to tag out and hand this debate over to you. I've been arguing with Mark for almost 10 years over this. He doesn't get the distinction between us and pros and obviously doesn't know what a PITA stickers are to apply or remove. The deep end remark fits. It's truly a shame because he puts forth huge amounts of effort in organizing races and trying to build fleets, and then turns around and comes up with this garbage which if implemented would cut the fleets we have down the middle.
Mark if you read this could you please define what YOU think a pro class sailor would be.
Todd
What would your definition of a pro be then? Do you think pros under your definition are good for the sport? Honestly, I am interested.
I think this is an important discussion to have in sailing. Not just for the cats but all sailing.
My definition of a pro is one who makes his living(read is paid for)racing sailboats. That means a salary not free equipment, not a case of beer, or gas money. And yes I think pros are good for the sport, they make everyone else step up their game.Unless your the number 1 amateur, your getting beat by somebody, don't be sour because it's a pro sailor.The best are the best, if your getting beat by them then yes it does get frustrating but don't confuse getting beat by someone because they were getting paid with the fact that maybe they were just better than you.
Todd
Mark seemed to be talking about the big monohulls where a guy buys a boat and then hires a bunch of professionals to race it. I don't see any relevance to beach cats.
Then you and I agree on what we think a pro is.
As I wrote earlier, I dont think pros and amateurs compete on an equal basis. They practice as a living and for a living, while we do it as a pasttime. Time in the boat is the large difference between a pro and an amateur. Time in the boat is a race winner, we know that.
You say they are good for the sport becouse they raise the performance level needed to compete? Raising the quality and performance is a good thing. On the other hand, how many quit racing or never begin becouse they realise they can never get at the top of the game?
I am certainly not a top amateur racer being beat just by the pros, and becouse of it resenting pros. I am thinking about the sport in general and racing small boats specifically.
IMHO being a
Pro
or an
Amateur
(Hate these words) is all about a matter of attitude and not if you
get paid
to sail.
If I recall correctly Laruffa won the Tiger Worlds ahead of the
Pros
by having a professional (thorough) preparation.
In Holland anywayz the
Pros
get beaten by the
amateurs
on a regular basis. If you dont have a professional attitude you will indeed always remain an
amateur
.