Pro or not..

Rolf, I have been hearing for years that in some European countries, small-boat sailors who are training for the Olympics are paid salaries by their governments or national authorities or whatever to do full-time sailing.

That is not the case in the United States. There is very little funding, and people have to have regular jobs or rely upon finding sponsors to keep them going. Frankly, I don't know how any U.S. sailors manage to put on Olympic campaigns. It would be a major stretch for me to call them

professionals.

I would call them

experts.

Otherwise, they would not be trying for the Olympics and sacrificing as much as they do in terms of family and career.

Pro, i.e. professional. Some one who does it as his/her profession.

But somebody who does WHAT as his/her profession?

I use the term

rock star

when I am thinking about the pros or near pros that I very very very occassionally race against. I sail with a guy who used to be a pro (paid for sailing formula 40s back in the day) but he doesn't get paid anymore. Is he still a pro then?

As far as I am concerned, anybody who is a pro is somebody who was a great enough amateur for people to pay him or her now.

And if nobody was paying him/her that person would still be a winning sailor.

As I have said over and over, you don't become a great sailor by being a

professional,

you become a professional because you are a great sailor.

So by saying that you don't want to compete with

professionals,

you are just saying that you don't want to compete against great sailors.

I know of several sailors (including a very

popular

one) who are happy to sail against

no names

because it is easier on the ego!

Mary,

that piece of logic is worthy of Holbergs comedy

Erasmus Montanus

. A book worth reading.
What makes a great sailor is time on the water. An amateur can become a great sailor and in time companies might employ him to sail for them, so far I am with you. When you can spend 5 days a week on the water with coaches, you become so much better that an amateur sailing 1-3 times a week never will catch up. This is the difference and the reason I think pros and amateurs should not compete. There is a reason an champion amateur boxer start with easy matches when he goes pro. It is the same with a lot of sports so perhaps they have a point?
Transferring from amateur ranks to pro should not be a big issue, so I dont quite understand the depth of feelings running here. It is just two different leagues to me.

Here in Norway our olympic teams recieve some funding, but far from enough to do a campaign on. They have to find sponsors to be able to compete at the highest level and still eat. As far as I can think of just now, we only have one professional sailor here, Knut Frostad.
I think it is much the same with other countries, but the amount of funding the athletes recieve varies. The big teams and the big names makes decent money from their sailing.

Tony,

are you saying you have weekend warriors routinely placing in front of teams like Mitch and Pim in the Netherlands?? Then you should send those sailors out on the olympic circuit instead of the current teams <img src=

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Remember my definition of

pro

?

I think the Hobie Tiger Worlds 2008 you referred to actually supports my point. If you look at the top ten, you see loads of pros there. The big difference is that they were not sailing in their usual teams. E.g. Bundy and Caroljin, Tiffany and Mitch (who is Tiffany??). If you had Bundy and Ashby, Mitch and Pim, Caroljin and Sebbe sailing with their usual level of teamwork in place I think the results would have been different (Dont take this as derogatory towards Mark L. and crew, they did stellar).

Did anybody READ the Article? It very nicely makes my point.
Does ANY one read the rule book.

Here is the not such a nice way to explain it to you..... since you guys refuse to look into the issue.

Pro ??.. my definition someone who is compensated for their actions. What is so hard to understand. EG.... Take prostitution... as Spitzer so nicely demonstrated... it doesn't matter how much you pay her... she is identified as a PRO and whether he paid her an apple, 10 bucks or 10,000 doesn't change anything. How much stuff you get is not the point.

Every one has their OWN definition. So.. What is the REAL definition in sailing.... not everyone's opinion!

ISAF puts it this way.

Definitions of this Code
Work includes:
employment, self-employment, payment by fee and any ad-hoc payment ; or full time and part time work; or for services supplied, whether in person or through a partnership or limited company.

Pay and its derivatives means: the receiving by a sailor of; or the acceptance by a sailor of an offer to give money, money's worth, remuneration, gratuities or compensation in any form.
Pay does not include:
a grant towards; or provision of; or reimbursement of money not exceeding the amount of reasonable expense incurred for entry fees, travel, accommodation and meals in connection with and necessary for a specific event.

ISAF uses these definitions to create three categories for clubs and classes to use AS THEY WANT.

22.2.1 Group 1
(a) Except as provided below, a Group 1 competitor is a competitor who has completed the qualification period and:
(i) takes part in racing only as a pastime, and whose work does require knowledge or skill capable of contributing to the performance of a boat or boats in a race or series; and
(ii) has not been paid in connection with participation in racing.

So.. Jake and Todd... You are or were into Cat 2 or 3 ... this usually gets you called

a PRO

Paying for your crew's costs to get to a regatta does NOT make that person a PRO.

ISAF sailor classification

Rolf's point is that cat 1 and the Cat 2/3 sailors should have different events. The Yacht Clubs that I work with run events for Category 1 sailors. Doesn't matter if its a laser or 70 foot racing yacht. Nobody is flaunting their sponsor logos and ignoring the advertising restrictions. They overlook the Cat 2/3 issues and leave that up to the class to enforce.

I am much less rigid on this issue then you think. It would be nice if we did not have the BLATANT disregard for their rules. Simply ditch the advertising. Then you just don't ask about what category sailor you are. (If you used your plain sail in the regional regattas and your NASCAT sail for the event that you got sponsored for you are golden. You would not have put the stickers on and off... right!)

I am not as hard nosed as Rolf who would have you guys racing in your own class.

You will find that the article explains WHY people built a new class and STRICTLY controlled the rules for Cat 1 sailors.

This is the discussion worth having. Not what constitutes being a pro.

Rolf: Careful of sniffing those epoxy fumes... <img src=

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(IMHO this is another completely useless Catsailor discussion, no more replies from me).
Less talk, more sail!

I am very careful with epoxy fumes and dust <img src=

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I dont think the discussion is useless, it is rather an important topic. The problem with any internet discussion is to keep control of it and not fall for the temptation to slip in a few barbed comments when not everybody agrees with your view.
When you know a person in real life and respect him you are more inclined to listen to what he say and at least consider the points. On the internet, I dont think it works quite like that. But over time, perhaps what is said in an internet discussion previously re-surfaces in a different context and you find it to be true or undeniably false. I know I have learnt a lot of stuff from discussions here which seemed useless at the time, even if what I learnt perhaps was not the topic for discussion..

So Mark let me get this straight you want me to go out and get sponsors to buy ANOTHER suit of sails to the tune of $4,000 so I can have a

clean

set of sails. There is no way I could afford 2 sets any other way.

Pay does not include:
a grant towards; or provision of; or reimbursement of money not exceeding the amount of reasonable expense incurred for entry fees, travel, accommodation and meals in connection with and necessary for a specific event.

from the rules you posted.
Looks like I haven't been paid according to that.

Rolf, I have known Mark for over 15 years and consider him a friend, so don't take this any other way. I also have not directed any of my comments at you. I think you are in a different situation over there. We have trouble scrapping together a class start alot of the time and to arbitrarily divide the fleets over something that effectively makes no competitive difference is crazy.
Us

NASCAT

(that's a stupid term) guys are just like everyone else, we just have heavier sails from all that vinyl.;)

I think the crazy part of all this is that somehow I'm presumed to be a better sailor because I beat the pavement trying to find a nickle to help offset some of my equipment cost. I did the math and I'm better off getting a second part-time job vs. the time and effort it takes to get the sponsorship.

The most important point here is:-

All Pro sailors are evil and should be banned from competition and even from being in the same city as a competition.

much like Arparthied worked in South Africa <img src=

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Now back to reality:-

Do you guys like your boats and the way they have evolved over the past decade? If you do then you have Pro sailors to thank for those innovations.

Take away the Pro's and you loose the best minds for developing your boats further and making your sailing better.

Well, as Jake and others have said, this discussion is not really relevant as far as beach cat sailing in the United States.

But obviously, there is interest in the subject, considering the number of posts on this thread.

It seems like the big problem is defining what is a

professional,

and ISAF does not do a very good of defining that with their three sailor classifications. Thus, their extensive FAQ's, that try to cover all the questions about what is and is not a professional and who is in which category, still do not answer all the questions.

I can only think of a very few cat sailors in the U.S. who might be Class 3 professionals.

I can think of many, many people who would be Class 2 professionals, according to the ISAF guidelines. The way I read it, that would include people who:

Design boats, build boats, sell boats,

Design sails, build sails, sell sails,

Design masts, build masts, sell masts,

Design blocks and other rigging that can improve performance on cats,

Put on seminars to improve race-training skills,

Write books or produce videos regarding race-training,

Publish sailing magazines that have articles about racing,

Someone who just writes an article for a sailing magazine about how to tune your particular boat better for racing, if he/she gets paid for writing that article.

People who run sailing schools that teach people about racing,

Someone who gets paid for coaching a sailboat racing team for a high school or a yacht club.

And I'm sure there are more.

And, yes, based on some of that, both Rick and I would probably be considered

professionals.

I'm so flattered. <img src=

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Now if I can just get somebody to actually pay me money to sail their boat for them, I can move up to Class 3! <img src=

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Of course, my sister is a MUCH better sailor, but she is totally amateur, because she does not make any money from the sailing industry. <img src=

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I have never, ever, been paid by someone to go sailing. I have, however, sold advertising space on my boat and sails.

Yes, and I think that's great -- everybody ought to sell advertising on their boats/sails, or at least advertise their own company or business. I can't see the connection between advertising on boats/sails and professionalism of the sailors themselves.

We have put our company name on our sails, but the stickers keep coming off. Bummer. <img src=

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Our Wave fleet up at Put-in-Bay is seriously talking about each of us getting a sponsor from one of the town businesses to advertise on our sails. We race right there in front of the waterfront restaurants, or in front of the Monument, twice a week, in full view of the tourists. We figure employees of the advertised businesses will be rooting for their

team

boat -- and maybe there will even be some betting going on. <img src=

alt=

/> It will certainly draw more attention to and interest in the sailing. And that can only be good. <img src=

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What's the difference between that and the town's softball leagues, with each team being sponsored by a different business and having the company name on their shirts?

That was exactly my point. It's not like I go blazing a trail and win every regatta I attend just because I've got some sponsorship.

Hey Jake,
What I did was TRADE space on my sail for a grant towards; or provision of; or reimbursement of money not exceeding the amount of reasonable expense incurred for entry fees, travel, accommodation and meals in connection with and necessary for a specific event.
Not sure but my guess is you did the same.
Todd

Did you also trade space on your

SAIL

?

That Boy's 'bout as sharp as a bowlin' ball

<img src=

alt=

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Howzat Dexter P. Spellchecker?
Thanks for the help, I guess bein' an F-16 sailor you spend alot of time lookin' at a computer,makes fer a weh bedder spailler.

Now that's no way for a kid to be wastin' his time,readin' that longhead gobbledygook.

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. <img src=

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People who live under stones shouldn't throw glass houses.

So from what i'm reading i must be considered a pro bacause my sponser (the wife) pays my race fee's every week LOL
Back on topic The couple of professionals that i know when they come home the last thing that they want to do when they get home is go sailing they would love to go to work and havea normal 9 to 5 job,I guess what i'm tring to say that alot of us sail for enjoyment and stress relief,Where pro's have to do it,with the stressnand probably no relief

People who get stoned shouldn't live in glass houses.

Is that Epoxy glass or polyester glass?

I tried my hardest - but I can't touch that. <img src=

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Did anybody READ the Article? It very nicely makes my point.
Does ANY one read the rule book.

Here is the not such a nice way to explain it to you..... since you guys refuse to look into the issue.

Pro ??.. my definition someone who is compensated for their actions. What is so hard to understand. EG.... Take prostitution... as Spitzer so nicely demonstrated... it doesn't matter how much you pay her... she is identified as a PRO and whether he paid her an apple, 10 bucks or 10,000 doesn't change anything. How much stuff you get is not the point.

Every one has their OWN definition. So.. What is the REAL definition in sailing.... not everyone's opinion!

So by buying my wife a ring your calling her a pro?

Look at the noob get mad.

The beauty of the sport is racing the best.

Damn right. I don't know how I would continue if I were Nigel.

I think we are all looking at this from the wrong angle.

We should punish the people who are PAYING the money, not the people who are TAKING it. To get a level playing field, we need the wealthy sailors to race in separate categories from the poor people.

The wealthy are the ones who are able to buy new boats every year, buy as many sails as they want, and pay experts to race their boats for them. It's just not fair!

Most of that posted was quoted Mark not the Noob.
See everybody at Spring Fever, I'm hittin' the road.
Todd