Q: Small Cat: Time Trailer to Sailing?

An H16 should take no more than a 1/2 hour. Practice and familarity with the boat will shorten it even more. Anything beyond 45 minutes means your drinking too much beer.

Hey Dennis, From around 15 minutes to 45 minutes and up depending on the boat. Sounds like you don't have a boat. If you don't, help us get a clearer picture of what you need in a cat and maybe we can guide you.

Do you have any aspirations to race in the future or just pleasure sail?

Sounds like you'll be single handing, do you want the versitility of sailing with crew also? Sailing with kids?

What is your sailing background?

Tell us a little about where you'll be sailing mostly.

Looking forward to helping you out!

The answers above are just what I needed to hear. Jeremy is right though, I will be single-handing a lot (or taking small children along), which is even 'worse' 🙂
I don't intend to race seriously because I could never be at enough regattas to pick up significant points. That means I will be pleasure sailing, the pleasure primarily coming from running rings around other boats, just for the heck of it.
I'm looking at a trailerable cat for the fun and versatility. I don't know how compatible a cat is to what my wife enjoys though... It may still be a hard sell.
We both have a background sailing 6 Meter (21Ft?) keel boats, slow, more or less stable and heavy 500Kgs (+/-1000lbs?). She's a good sailer although she doesn't know it herself... I'm a pretty decent sailor, and have skippered for summer camps and such.
We have 2 small children and we discovered that that means one of two options: Get a huge yacht (Huge yachts bore my socks off in everything below 7Bft) Or a tiny fun boat. So my idea is: What could be more fun than a small cat? Taking the kids out would be below 5 Bft (the first years), and I think I can handle something like a Hobie 16 single handed under those conditions. Above 4 Bft I could go out with a friend, or just reef the main and get a smaller jib.
Am I crazy?

You're definitely NOT crazy. I have many customers take small children out all the time! And, single handing the 16 in light wind is no problem. It can be a chore to rig solo, but there are ways around it. I think I have a better option for you though...

I know what boat I'm thinking of that would be perfect for you and your small children. But, instead of being a forum hog, I want to see what other people say. I'll get back to you after a few others give input.

Come on guys, this is the 90% of cat sailors out there. What do you think? <img src=

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You'd do good with either a H16 or a H Getaway (you know where to send the $20 Jeremy). The Getaway is slower but is more family friendly and has lots of space. The H16 is a good solid boat that is fairly fast, has high parts availibility and, if you do decide to race, there's usually a H16 class at most regattas.

Jeremy, you're thinking of the wave or getaway, I'm fairly certain.
Dennis - does this look like your family?
http://www.sail-s.com/Education_Clubs/fast&fun4_2002.jpg

or does this remind you more of your family?
http://www.mariner-sails.com/cust_files/images/getaway2.jpg

lol

Getaway or Hobie 18 with wings. The 18 will be harder to set-up by yourself but can be single handed in up to a moderate wind. No experience with a Getaway.

I think conditions on the water can change very quickly.

If you are going unsupervised then you should get something that you can right under all circumstances. The H16, Gateway and TheMightyHobie18 are all nice boats just not recommended for single hand sailing. Note: Sven http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/104587-%23SvenSchang.txt was on a H16. I personally would not believe in wishful thinking when my life (or in your case small children) could depend on it. <img src=

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Dennis, you didn't say how young your children are. And you didn't tell us where you sail -- not just the region or state, but do you sail on a small inland lake or one of the Great Lakes or the ocean or what? And what is the average or normal wind in your area during your sailing season?
Does

Me

stand for Maine?

All these things make a BIG difference.

All the other suggestions plus any inexpensive Prindle 16 , nacra 5.0 or nacra 500 that you can find.

Interestingly enough almost any catamaran design will carry a family of four, there is alot of volume in both cat hulls. So that is never an issue except when you by a very small cat like the Hobie 14 or something.

Personally I would not go over 150 kg = 330 lbs as ready to sail weight. With each kg it gets harder to get the boat off the trailer and onto its beach wheel and to the waterline. For a long time I had a Prindle 16 myself (135 kg = 298 lbs) and it was one of the very best simple catamarans around for the use that you are looking for. It will carry 3 to 4 adults (been there plenty of times) so a family will not be a problem. It is one of the lightest

old designs

around and often get can be had dirt cheap. Rigging it is a breeze. And at 84 kg = 185 lbs I could right it alone with only a righting rope. It is very comparable to the H16 in many respects. But I has noticeable more difficulty righting the Hobie 16 singlehandedly. Either way having a righting bag on board is compulsory in my opinion.

I hear the nacra 5.0 and 500 are even somewhat better boats for this use then the Prindle 16 and Hobie 16.

Another suggestion would be the Dart 18 but these are very rare in USA.

Good luck.

Wouter

For sailing with kids or such go with the Hobie wave, A bigger alternative would be a Dart 18 if you can find one localy. both of these boats would not be overpowered for single handed conditions but will take multiple people. Most importantly, both those boats can be righted solo if you flip with your kids on. Personaly, I think the getaway weighs way to much to be considered as a single hander. Anyway, you will have alot of fun on a cat.

Good Luck,
Eric

Based on all the info I got from the original thread:
[EDIT]
OOps, the forum won't let me post this as a new topic. Okay, so down with Netiquette then![/edit]

I concluded:
Jeez, the options are dazzling...

Some info up front:
I sail in the south of the Netherlands, Grevelingen.
(maps.google.com -->

Grevelingen, NL

) The other major waters you see around there are my

surf

, so to speak. They are not really sheltered because the country is as flat as a pancake, but it depends on the wind direction. A swell can easily build from 5Bft onwards, with wave lengths of around 10-12 Meters and top-trough heights of about 1-1.5meters (my estimates). There are no breaking waves except maybe the odd one from interference.

The wind is all over the place. luckily I get to pick when I go out or stay home. I generally enjoy sailing between 3Bft and 5Bft. Above that is what I get into whenever I'm not back in time to beat the summer thunderstorms home. I call it

Survival mode

.

I'll need to single hand often, but family sailing should be easy in light winds. While I don't intend to race, I do consider an active class organization a definite advantage. Mainly because of parts (knowledge) and used sails availability.

The kids are small still, like 2 and almost 1. That means I won't be taking them out this season, but the oldest should be ok next year whenever the water is flat (and there are no thunderstorms brewing).

I'm still very much planning what to do, and trying to keep an open mind to any possibilities.

I agree about being able to right the boat single handedly, that is a definite MUST. I do NOT want to be the one giving cats a bad name around here. And I don't want to be a statistic like that poor never to be old Sven Chang.

I'm also a do-it yourself type of guy. I do not like the idea of buying anything that is made from polypropylene or polyethylene. I can handle glass and epoxy, but There is no way I know of, of fixing sloppy PP/PE (I still have nightmares from the days of my old surfboard).

The Nacra 5.0 (+500?) looks like a nice 'all-round' boat I could handle. With those huge floats it should be able to handle me and my wife. The Dart 18 looks nice too, but is also a lot bigger.

Any other ideas?
Dennis

I used to get a Prindle 15 from trailer to sailing in 15 minutes flat, a Prindle 18 in 20. We used fastpins and snap shackles on anything that had to be connected or disconnected.

My Prindle 18-2 with spinnaker took a full hour each way.

Simple is good. An old Prindle 16 is a great boat, at 300 lbs, and a good all around rig for windy conditions. They can be found at bargain prices, but have them checked out carefully before you buy.

Four years ago, Bonnie pointed out a Hobie 16 sitting neglected in a yard across the street from our Bank. About 6 months ago I found out that it was owned by a good friend of mine's

hording

father (as was the house). My friend decided he wants me to help him restore it (the sails are in great shape) and so we moved it to my back yard last night (Bonnie was elated....NOT!).

Anyway...I'm giving it a once-over and I said to myself,

self, you could set this whole thing up and be sailing in 20 minutes.

Kinda makes me want to go try it out (after a lot of hull cleaning, new trampoline, new lines, and a little glass work on the starboard stern).

The 5.0 is a nice two man boat. Good in rough weather and surf weighs about 10-20 kg. less then an H16 but that mast is long and heavy. I weigh 96kg. and needed about 32 liters of water (32kg.) to right my 5.0 off the lawn in front of my house. I got blown into the rocks off shore once because I couldn't get it righted in a timely manner. I’d recommend going to a lighter platform such as Mosquito, Taipan, paper tiger, F14, F16 etc.. The Wave (12ft) is a good resort boat but it’s so slow compared to the other cats, that for me, it’s not as interesting unless you have other waves to race against. <img src=

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You'll never go back. <img src=

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That's what I'm afraid of! <img src=

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Hey Dennis,

If you walked into my shop, our dialog would go something liked this:

(Me)

Good afternoon Dennis, Welcome to Surf City

.
(You)
“I'm looking for an easily trailerable boat, and (inevitably?) some website suggested a Hobie…I don't intend to race seriously because I could never be at enough regattas to pick up significant points. That means I will be pleasure sailing, the pleasure primarily coming from running rings around other boats, just for the heck of it.”
(Me)
“Pretty much any cat can rig fairly quickly with practice. Some rig more quickly than others though, and it doesn't sound like a spinnaker is your thing, so we'll rule out spin boats.”
(You)
“I will be single-handing a lot (or taking small children along), which is even 'worse' :-)”
(Me)
It’s great that you want to get your kids into sailing so early! There are ways that we can make a boat like a Hobie 16 able to be put together and sailed by one person, but that’s not what that boat was built for. If the wind came up and you dumped, it would be very difficult to right while dealing with your children. How about a cat that is a little less powered up. And when the wind does pipe up how about a reef to keep things mellow for the kids?”
(You)

I don't know how compatible a cat is to what my wife enjoys though... It may still be a hard sell

(Me)
“Sounds like something with backrests would work out nicely. And, it will give the kids an extra something to hold onto.”
(You)
“I agree about being able to right the boat single handedly, that is a definite MUST. I do NOT want to be the one giving cats a bad name around here.”
(Me)
“Good call! You can provision a cat with a righting bag or pole, but with kids on board you want to get it upright as quickly as possible. Or even better, lessen the chances of a capsize by choosing a hull design with a lot of buoyancy forward, and a de-powered sail plan. But, you also want the option of adding sail to make it more exciting.”
(You)
“I'm also a do-it yourself type of guy. I do not like the idea of buying anything that is made from polypropylene or polyethylene. I can handle glass and epoxy, but There is no way I know of, of fixing sloppy PP/PE (I still have nightmares from the days of my old surfboard).”
(Me)
Plastic’s come a long way. I have never had to do warranty work on any Hobie rotomolded sailboat hull due to defect in manufacturing…I’ve never even seen one get a hole, and I’ve been selling their products since 1999. Hobie rotomolded boats are very tough.”

Sounds like the Flyer 2 A-class is the perfect….
Just Kidding!

Based on the above info taken from your posts. I would say that a Hobie Wave would be the ticket. Add the jib kit so that the kids could get used to crewing and maybe backrests for the wife.

This whole dialog is a total farce though. If you brought the family into the shop my dialog would’ve been with your wife. Because everyone knows when kids are involved, the wife picks the boat.
<img src=

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Ok Mr Salesman... Do I get a discount if I buy 10? This picture makes me want to set up a sailing school. Let me see, is that a Club Med sticker on there...

To tell you the truth, I think my wife might actually like that little boat. It looks sort of

friendly

and enticing in a playful sort of way. I need the jib though, I'm lost without my tell-tales. Besides, they give the wife another reason to scold me:

Hey Dennis, watch that lee tell-tale you dope!

If I'd walked into your store you would have noticed my worn blue jeans and faded T-shirt first though...

What it all boils down to is a limited budget, like max 2000 Euros (and even this is a stretch), which would clearly limit me to second hand boats.

Sorry about that, I should have said that sooner.
Dennis

Hi Dennis,

There are quite a few 2nd cats for sale that will meet you needs:
http://kopen.marktplaats.nl/watersport-en-boten/catamarans/c981.html

I would look for a place to leave the cat with the mast up instead of trailering everytime you want to go for a sail, there is a big club in Hellevoetsluis and I know of some others in that region.

Hallo Dennis, had nou even eerder gezegd dat je op de Grevelingen vaart, dan had ik meteen in mijn commentaar rekening kunnen houden met de Nederlandse situatie.

Translated for you Non-Dutch speaking folks out here "Hello Dennis, if you had told us sooner that you are sailing on the Grevelingen, then I could have commented on you question with the Dutch situation in mind the first time around.

Here in the Netherlands we got one of the very best secondhand markets for beach cats anywhere. Whatever you fancy is available at a very attractive price. The only exceptions are the rotomoulded designs, for some reason they never caught on here.

Just like Tony (FX-one) I looked at marktplaats.nl and there are some interesting cats there :

There is a Hobie cat 16 at 995 Euro's
A Topcat F2 at 1500 Euro's
Nacra 5.2 at 750 Euro's (but requiring some repair work)
A Prindle 16 at 1500 Euro's
A nacra 5.7 at 1950 Euro's
A Hydra 16 incl Trailer at 1.250 Euro's
A hobie cat 13 for 750 Euro's
Another Hobie cat 13 for 1150 Euro's
A nacra 5.0 for 1650 Euro's
Another Prindle 16 going for the highest offer
Yet another Prindle 16 going for 500 Euro's
A hobie 16 for 1650 Euro's
Hobie cat 16 incl trailer for 1750 Euro's
Dart 18 for 1350 Euro's
Nacra 5.2 + trailer for 1550 Euro;s
Hobie 16 for 1000 euro
Prindle 15 for 1095 Euro
Prindle 18 for 1500 Euro

And that is just naming the offer below 2000 Euro's, with some negociations the asked prices of some 2000 + boat may well come down. As you see more then enough options available.

Personally I think the Hobie 13's are very attractive offers. These boats were the predessors of the Hobie wave that mr Leonard (surf city) is talking about. These are small and underpowered boats but for 750 and 1150 Euro's they are very attractively prices. The market is absolutely flat for these boats so you may even drop the 1150 somewhat with some skilled negociating. Both are offered with a mainsail and jib. The Hobie 13's are both lighter and faster then the Hobie wave. Compare 97 kg with 110 kg. Also note the Hobie 13 is fitted out more like a true beach catamaran with a trapeze etc.

The links to the Hobie 13's are :

750 Euro Hobie 13

1150 Euro Hobie 13

The second boat I want to highlight is the nacra 5.0 for 1650 Euro's incl a trailer. The boat looks old and probably is only worth some 1000 Euro's plus something for the trailer but it is a boat that is still supported by the nacra dealor in the Netherlands (Scheveningen) and has excellent sailing characteristics plus modern looks. The only real downside is that you probably need a righting aid like a water bag when you go singlehanding. The nacra 5.0 is certainly a boat you will not tire off quickly.

1650 Euro nacra 5.0

The hobie 16's speak for themselfs. These boats are also still supported by the Hobie dealer in Noordwijk and these boats a very similar in pro's and con's to the nacra 5.0 but look less modern and are somewhat less well behaved as the nacra 5.0.

The Hydra 16 is a remarkable offer in the listing. I know these boats and they are pretty much a smaller version of the Tornado. They have kick-up centreboards (zwaarden) and are pretty interestin boats but have gone out of production a very long time ago and no replacements parts are available for them. These boats are typically very hard to sell because of this, BUT some owners have taken very good care of them and because of it being a dead class you can really negociate down the price. In effect these can be very good bargains when you play your cards right. It is definately one of the more high performance boats of the listing with a lightweight aluminium mast. This boat is offered including trailer, wetsuits, trapeze harnesses, the works and they are willing to deliver the boat to your doorstep. Indicates to me that they really want to sell the boat. In the pictures the sails look al right.

1250 Euro Hydra 16

Personally I feel the Prindle 16's are great boats, but the Nacra dealer here in Holland ceased to stock replacements parts for them. They sold their hole stock to another guy in Zandvoort, but it will get harder to find replacement parts in the future. Not that you often need to however.

For the boat specs on all the named boats, like sail area weight etc, go to :

http://www.watersportverbond.nl/data/Z8F_numdet-01-4-02-2007.pdf

If you have further questions about a specific design then don't hesitate to ask. I know most of the boats named as I sailed many of them at one time or another.

Another thing I can advice is to find two inexpensive offers of the same boat and by them both and assemble one single boat from it using all the best parts. The left overs you can use as your own stock of replacement parts or sell them off. This approach is especially handy when dealing with Prindle 16's. Often the selling off of a Prindle 16 in parts brings back in more money then selling the whole boat. And there are heaps of Prindle 16's in the Netherlands so this trick will work for many many many years in the future. The same trick is applied to Prindle 18's, nacra 5.2's and some other boats that are inexpensive on the secondhand market.

And Ohh before I forget that Dart 18 offered for 1350 Euro's is a very attracive offer as well. Also this boat is supported by a Dutch dealer, so replacement parts are relative easy to come by. The dart 18 class in Netherlands is small but very active and extremely great fun, great people.

Good luck

Wouter

I have been watching this thread and itching to say something. We don't sell Hobie Waves, or any kind of boat, but I just think this is the perfect answer for you.

Your wife would LOVE the Wave, and so would your kids. I have had all my grandchildren out on my Wave since they were babes in arms. The boat is very stable and hard to capsize. If it does capsize, it can't turtle and trap people beneath it, because it has the masthead bob. And it can be righted by a 100-pound woman. In fact, most women have no trouble even raising the mast themselves. And it has more deck and trampoline area for seating than much larger catamarans -- more than a Hobie 16 and even a little more than a Hobie 18.

It has tremendous buoyancy -- it carries two adults and all four of my grandchildren with no problem whatsoever.

In lighter winds you could let your 2-year-old steer the boat without worries. When your kids get a little older, you can add the optional trapeze wires, because kids love to trapeze.

It tacks amazingly well.

Yes, it is slower than larger catamarans, but all boats are slow and relatively boring in light air, so that is not really an issue. In moderate wind ranges up to 20 knots, you would notice the speed difference with bigger cats. But over 20 knots you won't notice any difference because most of the other cats will be on shore while you are zooming around having a blast in up to 35 knots of wind.

As far as rigging time, I figure 2 minutes to raise the mast and connect the forestay, five minutes to untie the boat from the trailer and put it on the beach (or launch it from a ramp), 2 minutes to raise the sail and be ready to go.

For your particular family situation, it sounds like the ideal boat at this point in your life.

Personally, I would not get the back rests, and I would not get the jib (at least to begin with). I do recommend the spreader bar between the bows because it makes it a lot easier to move the boat around on shore.

You can always add the jib later. And if you want to make it even more fun, you can add the optional spinnaker or a non-standard, roller-furling

Hooter.

But for right now, with your limited budget, find a good, used, basic Wave and see how your family likes it.

Rick and I have had Waves (we each sail our own) for almost 10 years now, and, although we have sailed and raced many different beach cats over the past 35 years, we are having more fun with our Waves than with any other cats, and have found them to be the most versatile. But the most important factor is that with the Waves we have been able to do more sailing than ever before because they are so easy to rig and launch and also because they can be single-handed in a much greater wind range than most other cats.

In eight years, after you have gradually (as money allows) souped up the Wave as much as possible with add-ons, if your kids are clamoring for a bigger or faster boat, you will have a bigger budget by then.

As far as durability, Waves seem to be almost indestructible. We have owned several, and have never had to do any repair work. Granted, the material is difficult to repair if it gets a hole, but so far that has not happened. We still have my original Wave, purchased almost 10 years ago, and the hulls are still fine.

Note: If you buy a used boat from a rental operation, though, be sure to check out the skegs. If they slide the boat up and down the beach without using beach wheels, over a period of time the skegs get worn down flat on the bottoms, which will hurt the boat's pointing ability.

If Dennis wants to persue this path then he best contact the Dutch Hobie dealer directly :

http://www.hobiecat.nl/

Hobie Cat Holland B.V.
Jan van Gent 2
2201 XT Noordwijk
Telefoon: 071-3619451
info@hobiecat.nl

Openingstijden:
dinsdag t/m vrijdag van 09.00 uur tot 17.30 uur
zaterdag van 09.00 uur tot 17.00 uur

For I have personally never seen a Hobie Wave being offered second hand in the Netherlands or anywhere else in Europe. Not even on the Hobie cat websites themselfs. I have not even seen a hobie wave in real life except at the various annual boatshows. I know they have been sold to resorts like club med as a friend of mine used to work for hobie cat Holland and told me that. But I have no idea what they do with them after the resorts have written them off. I figure Hobie cat Holland will know.

Wouter

Thanks Wouter and Mary!

I just got off the phone and it appears to be true that the Wave is very uncommon around here, even at the Dutch Hobie dealer... Too bad. After Mary's passionate defense of the Wave I just had to check it out. Mary, I promise you I'll keep my eyes peeled for one. The dealer tipped me a school that bought one, so I'll call them and ask if I can rent it for an afternoon. What with Mary and Jeremy both recommending Waves, I will have to give these boats a serious check-out. Who knows, maybe one will be up for sale second-hand sometime.

In the mean time I'm going to keep looking out for a super deal on a second-hand smallish cat, like the Nacra 5.0. If I do go that route I'll have some flotation sewn in the top of the sail. Or the Prindle 16 or Hobie 13...
To me, the options are still dazzling though! To think I thought it would be tough finding a cat that fit my criteria! I'll be sure to check with you all before buying anything though, you are all super!
Thanks for all the invaluable advice.

Dennis

No matter what boat you get, I think you should put a bob on the top of the mast to make sure it cannot turtle if it capsizes when you have children aboard.

I know that racers think the bob would make the boat a little bit slower, but I have never seen or heard any evidence to that effect. And you say you do not plan to race, so what's the difference if it can give you and your wife some peace of mind -- and make it easier to right the boat yourself.

The euro hit two US dollars yesterday. At 2,000 euros ($4,000 USD), you can get a new Wave. I have one - I race it solo, and pleasure sail with my wife and 3-year-old. There is no faster boat to set up - one string to pull. And the boat is an outstanding design and packs more performance than most people credit.

DO NOT go for the optional jib - it actually is a performance degrader. Use bridle tells and the tell tales on the main - the uni drives like a dream. <img src=

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John, If that (Eur-$ / 1:2) was the case I'd be selling the house right now. OTOH, Once those hard working troops of yours (no sarcasm intended!) get back home, the Dollar will probably skyrocket anyway.

I think the mast bob is a very good idea Mary. When out racing there are always lots of boats around to help out, but when out alone, you're left to your own 'devices', so they had better work.

I surely would have noticed as the only difference in our appearence would've been that I would be wearing faded, ripped SHORTS, not jeans! <img src=

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Good luck on your search for the most perfect boat!

Dennis,

When you called Hobie cat Holland did they give you a pricing indication for a new Wave ?

I would like to know what they are asking for one on the EU market.

Wouter