hello hello, weren't there a discussion about Rule 18 recently, which same rule is now CHANGED!!
tami,
I think we already had a discussion about these new rules which is why there aren't any replies.
18.2.e is interesting, did we talk about that?
Situation:
Crowded 'C' mark rounding (no gate) starboard boat is on the layline and let's say four boats all on port setting up to pinwheel around the mark. According to 18.2.e the starboard tack/inside boat may not be entitled to room because
from the time the overlap began, the outside boat has been unable to give mark-room, she is not required to give it
I'm also assuming the
outside
boat to the starboard tacker is the inside boat of the port pinwheel. In order to give starboard/inside boat room the
outside
(inside of the port pinwheel) boat would need get room from its outside boat and on down the chain. If it goes to the room it could be argued... I asked for room and didn't get it. So, starboard is hosed.
Anybody else read it the same way?
Yea, I saw that too. I think that maybe a problem!!!! and dangerous ....
Note:
starboard
has starboard rights and has had a inside overlap FOREVER!!! Shouldn't the port tack boats seen this developing and anticipated the need for inside mark rounding room.
So what do you do? .... come in outside of the
zone
on starboard w/ starboard rights and force all the port tackers to tack away????? then starboard tacks for the mark???
Starboard's Hail:
I will be outside the zone and I'm on starboard, STARBOARD!!!! ...
Now once you hail
starboard
you are required to hold your course (unless a collision is imminent) ... does the starboard boat need to continue through until they are clear of the port boats and then tack for the mark????
What if starboard tack does not feel that the port tackers are responding and are going to T-Bone him so he tacks away and while doing so a port tack still hits starboard tack .... I can think of arguments for both sides under this rule....
This could be
interesting ... very interesting...
Tami, thanks for posting the new RRS's
HarryMurphey
I'm not sure Dave - the old rule-set wasn't exactly crystal clear on that situation to begin with and I think there is still some complicated application here too. 18.4 clearly states that a boat that must gybe at the mark must not sail any further from the mark than necessary but nothing else directly applies to a
gybe
.
if you stick with 18.2 a) and b) (since they refer to each other), it's pretty clear that the overlapped, starboard
gybing
boat is the inside boat and is owed inside room at the mark. The only other exclusions to crossing tacks in the zone is 18.3 and it clearly indicates
tacking
and not gybing...so it doesn't apply here.
As you pointed out 18.2 e) seems to give the outside boat some leeway in it's ability give room. While I'm not sure under what circumstances an outside boat could claim the were
unable
to give room, the kicker here is that the overlap has to be developed from
clear astern
.
Clear Astern
is defined in the appendix to be the following:
when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam
from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal
position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear
astern. However, they also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both.
These terms always apply to boats on the same tack. They do not apply to
boats on opposite tacks unless rule 18 applies or both boats are sailing more
than ninety degrees from the true wind.
scratch that...I thought this might not apply since the boats would be on opposite tacks...but we're clearly talking about gybes and we're sailing at more than 90 degrees from the true wind...so
clear astern
does appear to apply to this situation...but can you really measure
clear astern
overtake from opposite gybe boats (at the angles we sail)?
I think that clear astearn thing could be argued too, but I need a white board.
In the end, the new rule is a bit better and it does take away the starboard layline approach a bit. Even with the old rule if it was crowded the starboard approach could be a low percentage play. I'd hate to be the judge for that one.
I don't think it made it more difficult for a starboard gybe boat to force it's way in at a c-mark rounding. I don't think it changed much. If you read 18.2 e) again and focus on the details, I think you can pretty much forget about trying to apply it.
from the time the overlap began, the outside boat has been
unable to give mark-room, she is not required to give it.
Even if you could argue that a starboard gybe boat obtained overlap from clear astern, you're going to have a hard time arguing that the port gybe boat is
unable to give mark-room from the time the overlap began
since opposite gybe boats are overlapped pretty much from the moment they become opposite gybe boats.
I still would like to know what circumstance would prevent the port gybe, outside, boat from being unable to give mark room. This rule applies like a domino to any of the more outer pinwheel boats so you can't argue that starboard gybe boat was not entitled to room because the port gybe boat had boats stacked up outside her.
Before the applicable mark rounding rules were clear cut ..... now they are situationally dependent .... this makes them
fuzzy ... how many boats in a pinwheel do you need to deny an inside overlap/mark rounding room to a starboard tack boat?????
and lets think this through the next few steps when the starboard tack boat is denied
room
....
They can head-up or foot-off ...
1) Head-up Scenerio: they head-up, accelerating into the port tack boats shreaming
STARBOARD
... at some point they are no longer in the
zone
and the rules revert to simple port/starboard. Will the port tack boats anticipate this????
2)Footing Scenerio: the starboard boat
foots-off
possibly passing on the wrong side of the mark and heading straight into the boats rounding the mark into a head on collision.
What happens if the starboard boat has been on the starboard layline forever and the port tack boat only reached the port layline recently and tacked??? the starboard boat has had a inside overlap from the moment the port tack boat tacked onto the port layline ...
I have never been a fan of coming into the leeward mark on starboard where we only had to deal w/
room to make a Tactical rounding
or
room to make a rounding in a seamanshiply manor" .... but this adds another whole layer of issues to mark rounding ....w/ NO safe options. It promotes head-on collisions, before it was mostly glancing side to side contact .... is this what we want?
On first analysis, IMHO this doesn't make mark roundings simpler or safer ... but adds complications and danger ....
Sail Flat, Sail Fast, Sail SAFE
HarryMurphey
H18MAG/P19MX
See that's just it, I think you could and you could do it successfully.
Do which one successfully???
A: Deny room forcing a starboard tacker into a T-Bone or head-on collision .....
B: As a Starboard tack boat claim your inside overlap?
Remember the whole mess depends on the boat handling skills of the worst sailor of the group and the kindness of the most aggressive sailor involved ... and as we tend to be
TypeA
personalities in this sport ....
HarryMurphey
1. I don't recall a recent discussion of the NEW rules - where's that at?
2. Can we get sketches/drawings of the situations? Descriptions are confusing AFAIC.
No matter how right you are two boats cannot occupy the same space at the same time. Enforcing your rights with contact will not work. Any sailor worth their salt can see a situation developing and create a plan B which could and probably should include a protest.
I know how I would approach the issue, but I'm a pretty passive person as many of you already know. I'm a lover not a fighter.
Insert song lyrics here to;
Where is the Love...
The rap version of course.
;^)