Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate:

I won't claim to be a rules expert. Certainly some on this form are more experienced than I. Anyway, there isn't quite enough information in your post to answer the question but I'll point a few things out:

1) Its now a 3 boat length circle. Length of the circle is defined by the first boat to get to the circle IIRC, so if a N20 gets there first the circle has a radius of 60' vs. 54' for a F18.

2) A proper race course has the gates separated by more than 6 boat lengths to avoid confusion.

3)) The rules are all defined based on how the overlap was established. If the starboard boat coming in last wasn't overlapped with any of the port boats prior to the mark round she MAY not have room. Not very likely to be the case.

Forcing a collision is always poor seamanship, no matter who has right of way. It is likely that the starboard boat had a rule 14 violation. Still, it is the responsibility of all parties involved to avoid the collision.

RULE 18.2 AND MARK ROOM

• New definition — Mark Room. A boat entitled to Mark Room gets room to sail to the mark and
then room to round on her proper course.

• Lock In/Lock Out provision same as in old rule — clear ahead at zone or overlapped at zone gets
Mark Room throughout her rounding even if overlap situation changes.

• An outside or clear astern boat at the zone is only required to give Mark Room (no change in
the right of way):

If the inside/clear ahead boat has right of way she can make a tactical approach.
Otherwise, she only gets room to sail to the mark.

• Doubt about overlaps resolved as in old Rule 18.

So, I'd say that If the Starboard boat WAS NOT at the 3 zone circle first she needed to give mark room -- but not as a tactical rounding.

Had the scenario been that they all wanted to round the left-hand mark ... I think that Starboard would have had an inside overlap AND been the right-of-way boat and would have been allowed mark room in a seaman like (tactical) rounding.

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the
inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone,
the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the
zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b), she
shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a
new overlap begins. However, if either boat passes head to
wind or if the boat entitled to mark-room leaves the zone, rule
18.2(b) ceases to apply.
(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an
overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.

If I am reading the situation correctly, the starboard boat is required to give mark room under rule 18.2(b). Remember that when sailing greater than 90 degrees from the wind, overlap applies between boat on opposite tacks.

Remember also that overlap is decided by a line parallel to the transom, so at the angles that catamarans sail downwind, boats in a significant area can be considered overlapped.

The starboard, outside boat is required to give room in this case. It is important to remember, however, that mark room is defined as:

Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include
room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of
the boat required to give mark-room.

Therefore, when overlapped in the zone, the outside boat only has to give an inside boat room to sail to the mark, then proper course while AT the mark.

The starboard gybe boat was behind all 3 port boats but going faster and became overlapped, because he still had his spin up, as the 3 ahead were snuffing and rounding ahead of him, I don't know where he thought they could possibly go to get out of his way, not that they had to, but that didn't stop him from coming in and luffing the other 3 up into the mark and each other.

He became the outside boat in a pinwheel around the mark, yet he is supposed to give room to all 3 of the boats rounding inside him, right?

Edit, I was typing the above while Jeff was too, what Jeff posted above is what I thought, he was outside boat and had to give room, yelling Starboard at a mark with boats inside you rounding is not a free ticket to hit people.

I think the SSS had better have a

Racing Rules

clinic for their youth sailors...

The really stupid part of the situation was, all he had to do was snuff, gybe and round the left mark, alone, and sail away in clear air, leaving the 3 boat pinwheel in his wake. Instead, he became number 4 coming out, in dirty air. I don't know how he thought that would be faster!

Glad to clear this up fully, thanks Jeff.

Timbo, that's not very surprising. From what I've seen the bigger yacht clubs with lots of coaching etc. often produce kids that may know the rules but go out and try to use them to their advantage rather than sailing fairly. Fortunately the cat sailing community does a good job of toning that down and teaching sportsmanship...one reason I'm racing cats and not a dinghy.

Either way, we said starboard, then realized we had to give room, We gave PLENTY OF ROOM...

Here is the situation,

We are the Orange spin, We are already in trying to round and gave them room, but they took advantage and took too much room.

It turned into this,

Look how much room the 3 boats above us have, We got dinged up pretty bad by the blade even though it was light winds.

Tyler, the boat with the blue spin is right ON the mark, and there was not a full foot of room between each of the 3 boats inside you. Where exactly was the Blade supposed to go when you were luffing him into the two other boats above him? You didn't give any of us enough room.

You didn't get dinged up at all, but if you did, it was of your own doing when you luffed up into the Blade.

There are a number of comments I could make, but I'll stick to these:

1. The original description of the incident does not match later descriptions and neither are consistent with the photos provided. The facts need to be determined before the rules can be applied.
2. If there was contact resulting in damage, then there should have been a protest hearing at the event. What were the facts found and decision made at that hearing?
3. I generally avoid making decisions on actual incidents without all the parties present. Small differences in the facts can completely reverse the outcome.

If someone would like to present a hypothetical situation, I'd be happy to help interpret the rules.

Regards,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee

There is absolutely nothing unfair or unsportsmanlike about using the rules to one's own advantage. Placing your boat in a tactically advantageous position is a legitimate part of the game.

On the flip side, I believe that expecting others to forgive a boat for breaking the rules is unfair and unsportsmanlike.

Regards,
Eric

Let me guess..... no protest hearing was held?

I never heard anyone say

Protest

and no, there was no protest hearing.

In the first picture you see the 3 boats at the mark are on Port and the starboard boat (orange spin) is further behind on strbd. When the first 3 boats entered the 3 boat length circle, he was even further out.

In the second picture the 3 at the mark have all gybed onto starboard and are rounding, as the 4th boat comes in and starts luffing them all up into each other. Remember, this is a gate, there is another mark to the right, just out of the picture, not that that matters.

There was a small amount of tapping of hulls, side to side, no damage that I could see. At what point should the outside boat stop luffing the inside boats?

After he taps them, or before?

Now he's claiming he did give them plenty of room to round bu they were taking advantage?

As you can see by the picture, not enough room was given, or there never would have been any contact, right?

Eric,

I suppose I'm guilty of premature forgiveness...

At the gate, we were overstood and coming in hot on Starboard with the spin up expecting to round the right-hand mark. F16 #10 had by now exited the gates heading up wind on port tack.

We hailed Starboard and it was necessary to alter course to prevent a collision. Given it was a youth sailor we let it go.

Ok i was the skipper on this Boss Nacra F16 and first of all I was ahead from the getco, we had no overlap before the 3 boat lengths around the mark and I gave you guys tons of room even though I didn't have to.

First it says there must be an overlap before the 3 boat lengths around the mark, which there wasn't.

Second mark room say in a seaman like way, not your fastest way... You guys over took that and I still gave too much room and ended up getting hit.

Third since there was no overlap before the leeward mark I was starboard and none of you had any rights to even fit in.

Now one more question to someone that actually knows their rules unlike Timbo here, what would happen if they made an overlap to my stern before the 3 boat lengths, jw?

Also can I protest all three boats or who would it be?

He broke a lot of rules

Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also,
(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and
(b room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.
However, mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack unless she is overlapped inside and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room and she would be fetching the mark after her tack.

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b applies.
(b If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.
c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b),
(1) she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins;
(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to mark-room, she shall also give that boat room to sail her proper course while they remain overlapped.
However, if the boat entitled to mark-room passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply.
(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.
(e) If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern or by tacking to windward of the other boat and, from the time the
overlap began, the outside boat has been unable to give mark room, she is not required to give it.

He should have luffed everyone until they were all disabled since no one racing had any business being out there without knowing the rules! You apparently also do not know that every time you go racing you make an implicit contract to know, obey, AND ENFORCE the rules which none of you did either (RRS Basic Principle p.2). Hard to obey and enforce what you don't know. Is it because none of you knew how to read? Not likely. Not enough time? Not likely since sailboat racing is very time intensive. Not motivated enough? Well maybe having your boats disabled will provide that needed push. The WHOLE point of the rules is to AVOID CONTACT! So, he should have stopped luffing BEFORE MAKING CONTACT! (O.K. rant over. I just get so tired of reading this pathetic kind of lame butt rule discussion here. Just get the rule book and read it - it is NOT that difficult.)

Each of the 3 boats inside the pin wheel needed 10ft past the other boats bows to turn upwind, in effect that would be allowing minimum 10ft for 1st boat, then 10ft thereafter meaning 4th boat would be at least 40ft from mark to be close to legal and that is with 3 other boats doing it all perfect with disturbed wind for the second and third boats. The rules say you must allow for a seaman like manner so that is avoiding collision at all costs, you cannot just leave 1ft between boats in wind and waves, he is lucky the other boats chose to hit each other and not just sink the outside boat. A wiser skipper which hopefully he is now would slow down at the mark since he has approached from the perfect angle round up behind the inside boat with some speed and probably take a good apparent wind away from the mark on the perfect course instead of putting himself in such a poor position

If there was no overlap at the zone, then the boats clear astern would have to give room no matter if an overlap later became established. The boats on port would also have to keep clear in accordance with their obligations under rule 10, but that is secondary in the incident being discussed.

As far as protesting, you would protest the boat to windward which you consider to be taking room they are not entitled to.

If I were the protest committee hearing the incident, I would likely dismiss the original protest and open a jury initiated protest with all boats involved as parties, allowing all testimony to be heard and hopefully figuring out what actually happened.

Without knowing how the overlap was established, making a judgement is very difficult.

I've posted bits of the new rules for you. As soon as you enter the 3 boat length it is closest to the mark has the rights so if the AC 72 gets within 216ft of the mark first it is entitled to rights and all other boats have the same rights in that 216ft circle, in order of entering it even if the rest of the fleet are moths. If the moth got there 1st the 3 boat length rule would mean the AC72 would only have a 36ft circle to work with. Therefore if they all got to that mark in the order shown the circle is 54ft, in the photos the outside boat is very late and has absolutely no rights. Port starboard has no meaning in this zone, should not even be thought about and I would be very wary of the skipper on the boat yelling it

Thank you Jeff for your advice, but Mike on the other hand I do know my rules.... I race Lasers and 420s too. I've dealt with watching videos on the racing rules for hours many numerous times. I just wasn't sure on who to protest, because it doesn't really state an incident like that very easily in the rules. Also I did no t hit anyone, his bow hit mine after giving him tons of time to maneuver. Also I would have slowed down and crept behind the inside boat, but it's kinda hard to do when you are in front of them at the time, before the whole incident.

My mistake by the way I should have up held a protest on shore considering there is no way we overlapped considering it's from the end of the stern. Specially since catamarans don't go strait downwind. Check this website out it show's exactly how they have no room mark room

The hardest part of holding a protest hearing is determing what actually happened (

finding the facts

). It's common for the parties and witnesses to give very different and often contradictory accounts of what occured. That's ok. Honest people can see the same incident differently and honestly tell different stories.

There have been several different accounts given here -- too many for me to give an opinion. One thing I can recommend though, is for people to review the definition of

overlap

. The rules do not define overlap directly. Instead, they define

clear ahead

and

clear astern

. If the positions of two boats are such that neither is clear ahead or clear astern, then they are overlapped.

Boats that sail very hot angles downwind, such as catamarans, can easily be overlapped on opposite tacks a long ways before reaching the zone.

I hope that helps,
Eric

I'm just wondering if you click on that link above in my other comment, tell me what you guys think, I honestly am wondering if I was suppose to give room or not. Read it let me know, because I don't want this to happen at an actual big race!

Overlap has no bearing in this discussion. Whoever is closest to the mark within the 3 lengths of their boat rule with any part of their boat has the rights if I get 57ft from the mark and any part of your 16ft boat is further than 48ft from the mark, I'm inside and you tried to round me up with no mark room you will pay for any damage to my boat. FDUB you are a danger on the course you nead to know the new rules not dinghy match racing pay attention to what I have said go and read the rules before you hurt someone or get yourself hurt.

You know your rules, huh? Your own testimony:

I just wasn't sure on who to protest

and

his bow hit mine after giving him tons of time to maneuver

argue against that assertion. Here is some advice: Always start with the boat that hit you. Not taking a penalty OR protesting in that situation also argues against your assertion and is unacceptable. You violated your FAIR SAILING (rule 2, page 3) agreement (as did at least one of your competitors).

Be careful about paraphrasing the rules. When trying to simplify them, it's easy to get it wrong. In a mixed fleet, the size of the zone may vary when considering the relationships of different pairs of boats. It's incorrect to say that port and starboard have no meaning in the zone.

Sincerely,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee

A boat may protest any boat she believes has broken a rule. If that rule is in part 2 (When Boats Meet), the protesting boat must have been involved in or have seen the incident. See rule 60.1.

Rules apply between pairs of boats. For example, if 4 boats are overlapped on the same tack, (1 being windward and 4 being leeward) and 3 does not keep clear of 4, then 3 breaks rule 11. If 2 did not keep clear of 3, she may have compelled 3 to foul 4. Likewise, 2 may have been fouled by 1. Ultimately, exoneration and penalty may pass all the way to the windward boat.

In theory, 4 could protest 3, 3 could protest 2, and 2 could protest 1. Because all protests concerned the same incident, protest committee should hear them all together. Circumstances are rarely ideal though. 4 could protest just 3, just 1, or 1, 2, and 3. If 4 protests 3, and no other protests are filed, then protest committee may (and probably should) protest 1 and 2. That way all the boats involved are parties, have the right to be present, and may be penalized.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Jeff,

What new rules are you referring to? Overlap certainly is important in this situation. If an overlap existed at the zone, then the inside boats were entitled to room at the mark. If FDUB was clear ahead at the zone, then the boats inside at the mark were not entitled to room.

No rule requires a boat to protest. A boat does not break rule 2 simply by neither protesting nor taking a penalty. A breach of a rule requires special circumstances to elevate it to the level of unsportsmanlike conduct.

Regards,
Eric

To further explain, if boats are coming from two different directions to the same mark there is no visible overlap but one boat will be in the 3 boat length zone first, that boat then has all the rights and sets the length of the 3 boat zone. It is a very good rule change it allows different size boats the safety needed on the course. If a 8ft BIC open with a small kid comes to the mark from an odd direction against a whole fleet of F18's but is rounding the mark the correct way. The mark rights circle will be 24ft and everyone must give that boat rights. But if the F18 gets to 54ft before the BIC gets to 24ft then the F18 has the rights. I'm obviously quoting an improbable race scenario here so don't jump on me I'm just trying to get the new rule accross