Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate:

FDUB, it's hard to say without knowing exactly how the situation developed.

What I believe happened, is a situation very similar to the first picture in your link, except with the three boat on port and you on starboard with a starboard rounding. With the angles spinnaker cats sail on downwind legs, there is a good chance that the line drawn abeam of the aftermost point of your hull would include the pack of three boats when you reached the zone, just as in the picture. If that was the case, you would owe those boats room.

Again, without seeing the situation it's hard to say, and I'm not trying to accuse anyone, just trying to answer the questions!

Where is this rule coming from?

Here is the 2013-2016 version of rule 18.2:
18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b),
(1) she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is
broken or a new overlap begins;
(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to mark-room, she shall also give that boat room to sail her proper course while they remain overlapped. However, if the boat entitled to mark-room passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply.
(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.
(e) If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern or by tacking to windward of the other boat and, from the time the overlap began, the outside boat has been unable to give mark- room, she is not required to give it.

That is not correct. The scenerio in question has catamarans sailing hot downwind on opposite tacks towards the same mark. If two boats are sailing 30-45 degrees off the true wind on oppposite tacks, then they are most likely overlapped. In that case, when they reach the zone, the outside boat must thereafter give the inside boat

mark-room

under RRS 18.2(b). It is not a matter of

the first boat has all the rights

.

Regards,
Eric

G'day Eric I think it is great to have a discussion about something like this where everyone has a firm opinion and only one can come out right as we need to be clear on this. I will state according to the new International Sailing Federation rules once you have established a position within the 3 boat length circle of a mark of the course you have the rights in order of when you came within that circle so if you are 1st it does not matter port or starboard you have the rights and all other boats must give you space to round in a seamanlike manner as long as you don't tack. The more amateur your fleet the more space, for instance at the A Class worlds they would measure in inches at my club level I would give 4 or 5 feet because my seamanship is less than the world class, another example would be if I mucked up a spinnaker takedown because I was excited about coming first, am now under the mark limping up wind while the other spin boats are racing down, once I am in that circle 1st I have the rights no matter what speed is involved
Here is the link I'm working off

If you can give me an example where I am wrong I would not be disappointed I would consider myself better equipped to race

Joe, what you have to look at is

what is my fastest course?

Looking at the pics it seems the breeze wasn't really on, and it was shaping up to be crowded on the left gate (always refer to right and left sides of the course as though looking upwind to avoid confusion). Crowded AND the outside of the pinwheel, so lots of extra distance sailed IF you got through clean, which you didn't. Nobody did. Bail right, slow down to make the gybe on the black kite if you have to, give in to win. Odds are, you'd have sailed away from the yelling, slow pinwheel hung up on the other gate.

edit: which i THINK was Tim's original point...

The RRS 2013-2016 have had several changes. That includes rewriting of the definition of mark-room and some tweaking of rule 18. Rule 18.2(b), however, has not changed. In what rule do you find

rights in order

? In the previous rules (2005-2008), if a rule of Section A or Section B conflicted with Section C (e.g. rule 18), then the A/B rule didn't apply. That meant that there were times that rule 10 could switch off. That confused a lot of sailors, so ISAF took that out of the current (2009-2012) rules. Rule 10 applies throughout mark roundings -- the starboard tack boat's actions may, however, be limited by rule 18. A port-tack boat entitled to mark-room may also be exonerated for breaking rule 10 (see RRS 18.5 or RRS 21 in the upcoming rules).

There is not total agreement in the judging community about how much room is enough. While I agree that some consideration should be given to the base skill level of the event, the rules do not excuse poor seamanship at all. If a boat entitled to mark-room takes more room than necessary due to a mishandled spinnaker takedown, then she may break rule 10, 11, or 12 in the process.

Regards,
Eric

Yes, that was my exact point, thank you very much John. To Joe, do you think I intentionally tapped you, as if I could have not? You gave me no other choice, but if it makes you feel any better, I also had to go up and hit Karl above me, to avoid T-Boning you really hard.

No matter who's on

STARBOARD!!

the more important rule is, don't hit anyone, or cause others to do so. You had plenty of clear water below you and could have given us all room to round. What were you thinking? All 3 of us would just vanish, because you were on Starboard?

But as John stated, the 'faster' way, would have been to round the other gate pin and sail away in clear air, vs. ride the pinwheel around in dirty air, then suffer for the rest of the leg with 2 F16's and an F18 (pink spin) sitting on you. In very light air, clear air is king.

The rules state that as you enter the three boat length circle around the mark you establish your position as long as you sail in a seaman like manner on a proper course and that would mean rounding the buoy.
Heres another reason FDUB mucked up he didn't come close to allowing enough room for the inside cats to round in a seaman like manner
As far as proper rounding room goes if you or your tiller hits the mark you must do a circle as it's part of your boat, so my interpretation is if I am inside boat against the mark you must allow me to keep my bows on their current course until the rear of my centreboards is past the mark as I cannot roundup sooner without hitting the mark, furthermore you must allow my tiller to be fully extended and me to be on the wire if I need to for proper seamanship, so the inside area I need to round a mark correctly is much bigger than a dinghy sailor would anticipate. In proper wind a correct rounding could see me on the wire at the rounding adding just under 6ft to the width on my cat so you need to allow me 14ft from the mark in width with my head nearly touching the mark and about 11ft of length infront of the mark as I go round.

Wow, a little too much emotion here guys. It's really hard to follow the story and find facts with everyone screaming and calling one another names.

I have to agree with Eric and Jeff D. that there are conflicting stories and without a protest, it would be difficult to get to the bottom of this.

Having said that, I totally agree with Jeff D. above. Go to the linked website and save that first picture. Open it in Paint (or equivalent) and do a Flip Horizontal. That will give you a rough idea of what it sounds like the boats looked like coming into the left gate (it's basically a mirror image of what is shown in that link of the right gate mark rounding).

The picture of the actual incident in this thread seems to confirm that the boats were probably in roughly that arrangement when the first one got to the zone. If STBD were further behind, that just solidifies the fact that all of the other boats were overlapped inside of her. (Note, even if the port boats were not overlapped with one another, they are all overlapped inside of STBD). If STBD were further ahead when she entered the zone, she would have been gone before the others got there.

JeffS: You have a lot going on in your posts, but just to clarify, this is already in the current book:
Zone (definition) The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the boat nearer to it. A boat is in the zone when any part of her hull is in the zone.

As an aside, I sit on protest committees for all levels of events, kids through adults, cats and monohulls. One common theme is that the higher the event level, the higher the expectation of the sailors abilities to handle their boats correctly (and less room needs to be given for the same situation). The key terms are promptly and seamanlike. If a boat (at any level) waits to respond, she's out; but a new sailor may legitimately need more time to complete a maneuver. The gray area is seamanlike.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Yes, I wrote rule 2 when I meant rule 3 which says in part

each competitor agrees to be governed by the rules

and as I already pointed out the Basic Principle on page 2 of the rule book is that

Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty or retire.

We see way too many incidents like this w/o either protests or penalty turns and boats being sailed like bumper boats. This Basic Principle is written on page two of the RRS to emphasize its importance; so while racers may not be breaking a numbered rule by not protesting, it may be even worse... they are breaking the basic principle that we all agree to when we race. I know this is important to you; shouldn't it be important to every racer?

Rule 61.1

A boat intending to protest shall always inform the boat other boat at the first reasonable opportunity.

That would be on the water right after the foul and include the hail,

protest

.

Its odd that a port tacker who is laying the leeward mark always has an overlap on a starboard tacker just breaking the 3 boat-length circle ... EVEN IF HE

I am really trying to understand this, is there any reason that anyone can post where all cats on the same tack at the rounding mark sailing in a seamanlike manner can be pushed up onto each other by the outside boat? except to avoid collision which would make it the outside boats fault

Well, it's certainly not intuitive, which is why most people get it wrong until they get it drilled into them at a rules seminar (that linked drawing usually does the trick), or deals with it in a protest.

Realistically, a boat a mile away has an inside overlap that doesn't matter, because the STBD boat would be long gone by the time he gets there. It only really matters for the closer boats.

Mike

I fill freely admit I screwed that one up when I first started sailing boats that sail hot angles downwind!

Read above. The rules are always a 1 boat vs. 1 boat situation. Effectively the 1st boat inside has room at the mark, the 2nd boat has to let them round in a seamanlike manner, and so on down the line. This means the outside boat can't force a collision, has to let the other boats round quickly-not tactically advantageous, if you look at the photo I don't think anyone was breaking this, no one was trying to go wide and tight at the mark. Still the outside boat broke rule 14. And its also pretty clear that they don't understand the rules fully, nor have a complete understanding of how to handle a spinnaker boat at a mark rounding. You don't play bumper cars with $80K in boats.

There is no doubt in my mind that Starboard was overlapped with all three port boats. I have no idea on if the port boats would be overlapped with each other. It comes down to if Starboard gave the inside boats room and time to round in a seaman like manner.

I'll go further and say that a single handed boat needs a lot more room to turn a mark in a seaman like manner. All boats are not equal. It's damn hard to jibe, take a chute down and turn the mark at the same time single-handed. What is seaman like at a Club race is not nessessarily seaman like at a Nationals. The playing level changes.

Did the Falcon with the black spin (with the gold/yellow falcon on it) come up hard, cross all the transoms and come away inside. If so, that is what JW means by

give in to win

....

I think that the Falcon (Black spin with gold logo) probably just drove around that parking lot of boats...

Looks like a missed opportunity. Hard to tell by the pictures if they had room to get insde there or not OR if they could get there without killing all their momentum in light air.

How long did it take the pinwheel to circumnavigate that mark? Been there before myself....

Exactly.... Now Seaman like is the issue. Seaman like is NOT necessarily FAST, NOT TACTICAL (enter wide... come out close) Seaman like IS CONTROLLED.... SEAMAN LIKE IS NOT ARBITRARY!

NO... now you are on the slippery slope to NASCAR. You cannot go racing when you are expecting the other boats to make snap judgements on the skill level of the boats on their inside.

The single handed boat... should snuff their chute early....They then can control their boat in a seaman like manner in the rounding. It was their call to push the edge of their skill level. The other boats in the fleet EXPECT the single hander to behave just like any other 16 foot boat in the regatta.

Likewise, in a monohull regatta... if you are sailing shorthanded... and you flub the rounding and don't sail it in a seaman like way... any boats you foul are your fault. It was your call to mix it up. We just made this call a week ago when the skipper made the call to give up the lead and inside position BECAUSE THE CREW WAS GREEN and judged the risk as too high

Room is the next issue.... Assuming the three inside boats were rounding in a seaman like manner... collisions are not room. So... somebody was at fault. If boats one and two on the inside had adequate room to round in the conditions in a seamanlike manner and did not collide.... the question becomes... how much less room did boat three have....

The Base skill level of the fleet was NOT a consideration here... it was a club event.... No expectation that competitors were world class... (I am not even sure that you can make this claim about 1 through 100 at any catamaran world event... but that is another discussion)
The first point is... that Control of your boat is Seamanlike..

The second point is.... Protest Committees are the BEST WAY to sort out the game... The culture that we don't protest generates this kind of crap after the fact.

At a PC hearing... you would have had to read the rules before you walked in and made your case that you were denied room..... (hint hint... indicating that boats had to tap to have a protest means that you have no clue about the current rules....) You could be in the right... BUT... choosing to litigate on the forum with the loaded language that you used is just crap!!!

The culture that we don't protest generates this kind of crap after the fact.

and "At a PC hearing... you would have had to read the rules before you walked in and made your case that you were denied room..... (hint hint... indicating that boats had to tap to have a protest means that you have no clue about the current rules....) You could be in the right... BUT... choosing to litigate on the forum with the loaded language that you used is just crap!!!

Well put, Mark! There are 4 basic Right of Way (R-O-W) rules, 4 General Limitations rules, 2 rules at Marks and Obstructions, and 3 Other Rules in the R-O-W rules section. How can you not be motivated to learn these few rules before racing when the stakes can be so high? Who wants to risk their property to others so uninformed? It has never been easier (or cheaper) to get excellent rules instruction and learning aids. Why does this culture of rules ignorance persist?

Let's not attack the people who are here and wanting to sail and learn ... heck this post has 51 replies in just over 24 hours.

Perhaps this could be used as a

Teaching Moment

.

Maybe we need to be proactive and have a weekly rules discussion ... a new topic each week with scenario's for us all to weigh in and debate.

With the speeds that cats approach each other it would be useful to have thought thru various scenarios previously (essentially increasing our experience thru virtual learning)

Is it worth noting one of those involved is still in high school?

Do you all read certain poster's posts in a voice all their own? When I read a Mark post, it sounds (in my head) like a teacher looking down on me while wagging his finger at me. I am not judging his content, just commenting on the little voice that goes off in my head as I read one of his posts.

BTW, he and Mark do make some good points about a lack of rules knowledge - which sadly, I may fall into the group that is less knowledgable of the rules as I should be.

Questions pertaining to the photos:

Still having trouble sorting out who is who:

Blue spin - port tack next to mark - ?
Pink spin - port tack middle - T-back?
Red spin - port tack outside - Timbo?
Orange spin - stb tack outside - ?

when we talk of

room

, are we in consensus that regardless of skill, each F16 needed about 1.5 meters on each side of the hull to accommodate the hiking stick, trapeze, etc (

normal equipment

)?

If the stb boat hit the 48' ring first (clear ahead) then none of this would have been an issue as it would have sailed on ahead of everyone, or would it have run out of clean air and stalled while the pinwheel overtook them?

If the port boats hit the 48' ring first (clear ahead), then the stb boat was to keep clear from entry to exit?

If the stb boat hit the ring first but overlapped by the port boat(s), who has

rights

then?

If the reverse is true (port boats hit ring first but overlapped by stb boat)?

Blue spin - port tack next to mark - ?
Pink spin - port tack middle – Karl/Beth F18
Red spin - port tack outside - Timbo?
Orange spin - stb tack outside - ?

I think that is the consensus

Yes … but clear ahead? I think a starboard boat fetching the mark would have had an overlap for some time… and thus your last question is pertinent.

Starboard should have clean air all the way as the port boats will need to gybe and round the mark … starboard will have all the momentum to stay clear AND ahead.

Starboard stays clear And give mark room … Note that all the other port boats had overlaps so Mark Room for all

I do a lot of judging, and would be happy to answer rules questions/put together some scenarios if there is an interest for that. Probably the best way to do it would be to have someone submit a scenario, then discuss the situation. We have had a couple rules talks in our fleet and I believe it has helped.

Remember that the new 2013-2016 rules go into effect on January 1, so if you plan to sail OCR, Tradewinds, etc. you need to look into the changes.

That's awesome Jeff.

I have one, but I'll submit it over the weekend so we can hash this one out and beat it like a dead horse before we get into another.

This exact scenario was in Rick and Mary's Catamaran Sailor magazine not that long ago, every edition of the magazine has a teaching page and it only costs $20 a year for Americans including postage, I pay more because I'm on the other side of the world, they will post it anywhere and it's a great read.

I think it's been a productive thread where at the start some people said that the inside boats had all infringed and now there seems to be a concensus that the outside boat has infringed, that makes us all safer on the course because we are on the same page.