Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate:

Ah - tactically a tough spot. You're not going to out-point a mono after the rounding in that situation, and I see that tacking away wasn't an option. I imagine I would have footed hard to try and break through his lee - if there's a good bit of track left, you really need to get by him to make your rating work. If you're near the finish, you might not have any other option than to do what you did - lock in and hold with him as high as you can to keep ahead of the Pac Men behind you.

Sportsmanship? Supposed to be at the top of the pile throughout the course. He was being a sportsman, in a way, by using the tactical advantage to cancel out your speed advantage. That's a good opportunity for discussion at the bar later -

Hey, good job holding me off after that last mark. You know I would have gotten you if I broke free, right? Cheers - I'll get you next time.

I have been keeping to the 2009-2012 rules. The changes in wording in the new rules are interesting- I haven't spent much time with the new rules because I don't want to confuse myself until I'm done judging for the fall.

I agree the change in the definition of mark room has real consequences!

Eric, I'll bet another term you hear all the time is

overtaking

boat. While I know what the racers are saying I always try to get them to use the terms in the rule book that apply, like

clear ahead

and

clear astern

or

overlapped

. Using terms to describe situations that are not used in the RRS almost certainly makes it more difficult for sailors to use and understand the rules. Some racers think that an

overtaking boat

has no rights even after establishing an overlap. As others have pointed out here already, using such terms is a loud and clear signal to judges that they are probably going to have to give this racer a needed rules education the hard way.

In my reading of the rules, If that Musto skiff got in the 3 boat zone first he can hold you to his best seamanship (work out what that is yourself) in a 45ft circle around the mark, after that it is windward gives way to leeward and you take him up head to wind if you can but at no circumstance can you hit him to force him up. If you sail with him regulary show him your red flag before the mark or on the beach before you go out and tell whoever is watching the course to pay attention to your boat. That is all you can do.
An important part of the rules is that an F18 can have its bows 8ft out of the Musto skiffs 45ft circle but hold the rights as the F18 has a 54ft rights circle around the mark. This positioning is very difficult to prove off the water but if the smaller boat is level with the big boat then big boat holds the rights.
This could be a very difficult concept for dinghy sailors to understand especially if they know all the rules already like FDUB

Keep in mind it's not the boat that reaches the zone first that has rights. If a boat hits the zone first, but there is a boat overlapped inside, the outside boat owes inside room.

Also, you can not take a boat head to wind if rule 17 is on.

Not sure why you would assume dinghy sailors have less rules knowledge, the boat you sail is pretty irrelevant.

Skiff sailors are the least likely to obey the rules. If a 15ft dinghy like the Musto described above is 53ft from the mark coming straight down and a F18 53ft from the mark is coming from wide, the F18 has established it's rights as per the rules, the dinghy must go behind the F18 unless the F18 is not sailed with proper seamanship.
The rules state you have established your position when you hit the zone, this is the hardest part of the rules because it doesn't matter if that Dinghy is going 5 times faster if he cannot round without affecting the F18 he must do a 360 or be disqualified. Just as the other ex dinghy sailor in this thread should be disqualified for saying he deliberately caused a collision with the inside boat and didn't do a 360 after he felt they had taken enough room.

In the case you are describing, the Musto may very well have rights if there is an overlap between the two boats when the F18 reaches the zone.

If no overlap exists, then you are correct in saying that the F18 does not owe room even if later an overlap is established.

It is also important to note that the penalty would be a two turns penalty (360 and 720 are no longer in the rules), unless the SIs amend the penalty to one turn.

I also don't understand the anti-dinghy sailor sentiment. I sail both cats and dinghies- there is zero difference.

Forget the negative dinghy thing, I've given examples for everyone of my opinions on rule interpretation. Using my last post as the example could you tell me your reason that if you were that dinghy you might not give way to me? I am not challenging here I am wanting it set in my head

A good example is two boats approaching a leeward mark to be left to port. Both are on port, and an overlap exists between the two boats.
The leeward boat is slightly ahead, with the bow of the windward boat even with the leeward boat's shrouds.
The leeward boat reaches the zone first, which is defined as three of her boat lengths.

18.2(b) says:
If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone,
the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the
zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.

In this case then, the outside boat, despite reaching the zone first, owes the inside boat mark room.

Totally agree with that, in my above example theres two boats coming in on a roughly 90 degree seperation your in the dinghy, I'm on the F18 were same distance from the mark as much as you can tell on the water. Why would you not give way to me?

I wholeheartedly agree with most of this. But, when faced with this in a protest room (as a judge), my thoughts are always focused on establishing the facts. The conclusion (and any lessons) come later in the process.

More than a few times, we've ruled in favor of a party who uses the wrong verbiage, and sometimes the wrong rules reference. We usually make it a point (especially with kids) to let them know how we reached our conclusion, and why the rules and/or terms they used were not correct.

Mike

The question that needs to be answered is if an overlap exists when the first boat reaches the zone. If the answer is yes, the inside boat is entitled to room.

If there is a 90 degree separation between the courses of the two boats, then an overlap almost certainly exists, and the inside both is owed room.

No overlap because of the angle seperation both hitting the three boat cicle at the same time means no overlap at the mark just different angles so no inside boat they just hit. I say the boat nearest the wind being your dinghy in this example then must avoid me? Where am I going wrong with my inerpretation of the rules? Still not challenging I had to drink 3 bundys the other night before I had a mark and two boats to do this scenario on my desk.

Interestingly I choose the perhaps not so PC route of after the 3 boat lengths I luffed him up enough to cause both boats to go almost into wind, at which stage he then purposely turned into my boat, shouted protest and demanded I do a 720.

Now thinking this was a bit rich, there was a bit of verbal between parties about being unsportsmanly and why bother when he was on a PN of 860 and I'm on 680.

He carried on enough that he approached the RC and wished to arrange a protest, only to be told he would be the only person in the bar, and thats what so good about local Wednesday night racing, apart from a few, nobody really takes it all to seriously.

Nice discussion guys, learning lots here.

Jeff,

Take another look at the definition of

overlap

. It is possible for boats on widely divergent courses to be overlapped. If two boats are approaching a leeward mark 90 degrees apart, they are almost certainly overlapped.

Regards,
Eric

I still hear

mast abeam

every now and then. While we're at it, the rules haven't contained the terms

360

or

720

for four years. Those penalty descriptions are inaccurate.

Proper course

is probably the least understood restriction -- I often hear people yelling

proper course

at inappropriate times (although this has declined with the deletion of rule 17.2). The next most confused topic is mark-room.

Regards,
Eric

where does a non racer get a copy of the rules to read and start to learn them?

re. the confused mark room, which I believe started this whole thread, clear this up for me:

Two boats coming into the 3 boat lenght circle, one is on port, the other is on starboard. The port boat gets to the circle first and then has to tack (or gybe) to round, but is also inside of the starboard boat.

Does the starboard 'right of way' go away when the port boat gets to the circle first?

This could be at either A or C mark, with the two boats coming in on their respective laylines. If I am interpreting the rules correctly (and I'm not sure I am) the Inside boat, the first to the circle, regardless of tack, has

Rights

to round in a seaman like manner, not in a NASCAR like manner.

Is that how we are to interpret this?

If you join US Sailing they will send you a rule book as part of your paid membership.

http://home.ussailing.org/

If you don't want to spend the $60, look here, it's the 157 page PDF:

Open that pdf and scroll down to about page 16, rule 18.3 and 18.4, can one of you judges explain that, when two boats are coming into a gate on opposite gybes, who has right of way?(it mentions rule 18.4 doesn't apply at a gate)

Thanks.

Note: I am still talking about the current 2009-2012 rules here

Timbo,

The application of Rule 18 is slightly different at windward and leeward marks. One of the main causes for this is the definition of overlap. When sailing closer than 90 degrees to the true wind, overlap does not apply between boats on opposite tacks. When sailing greater than 90 degrees from the true wind, overlap does exist between boats on opposite tacks.

In practice, this means that at a leeward mark, boats on opposite tacks can have an overlap, and the inside boat at the zone is owed room. That room includes room to gybe and round the mark. However, rule 18.4 applies:

18.4 Gybing
When an inside overlapped right-of-way boat must gybe at a mark to
sail her proper course, until she gybes she shall sail no farther from
the mark than needed to sail that course. Rule 18.4 does not apply at
a gate mark.

So, if you are an inside overlapped boat approaching a leeward mark (not a gate), you are owed room to gybe and round the mark, but you cannot sail further than needed before gybing.

(rule 18.4 is actually deleted in team racing, making the mark trap possible)

At a windward mark, say to be left to port, a port tack boat cannot have mark room on a starboard tack boat because overlap does not exist between boats on opposite tacks. If the boats are inside the zone, the actions of the port tack boat are restricted by both rule 10 (opposite tacks) and rule 18.3:

18.3 Tacking When Approaching a Mark
If two boats were approaching a mark on opposite tacks and one of
them changes tack, and as a result is subject to rule 13 in the zone
when the other is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter
apply. The boat that changed tack
(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to
avoid her or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on
the required side, and
(b) shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped
inside her.

Thanks Jeff, now, about the remark in Rule 18.4 concerning a

Gate

...

Thanks Timbo

Rule 18.4 does not apply at a gate mark in order to allow competitors to choose which mark they round.

Picture approaching a gate on starboard gybe with another boat to windward, and both boats sailing a fairly hot angle typical of spinnaker cats.

If rule 18.4 was turned on, the leeward right of way boat would not be permitted to sail any further from the right (facing upwind) mark before gybing than needed to sail the course.

Turning off rule 18.4 at a gate allows the leeward right of way boat to decide they want to round the left gate (facing upwind), and continue sailing past the layline to the right mark.

Does that example help? It's a hard one to describe.

I recommend getting and reading Dave Perry's book explaining the R-O-W rules:

Understanding the Racing Rules of Sailing 2009-2012

. Obviously it would be a good idea to wait just a little bit longer and buy the new version which will be out soon. There are other books that explain the rules (The Rules in Practice 2009 - 2012 by Bryan Willis, for example) - I have both but I prefer Dave's. There are several good rules blogs such as this one that lists the ISAF Rules study guide among lots of other good info: http://www.unrulyracing.com/2012/09/rrs-2013-16-study-edition.html

As I wrote earlier, it has never been easier to get good rules info and study material, quizzes, videos, etc. Just spend a little time looking around and checking it out to see what most appeals to you and your learning style. There is even an app to load the rules on your phone so that you have them with you wherever you go. One of my favorite ways to better understand the rules is to read the US Sailing and ISAF rules cases which are also available online at: http://raceadmin.ussailing.org/Rules.htm

Thanks Jeff, I am thinking back to the original situation that started this thread. We were going downwind into a gate, starboard boat coming in on three overlapped port boats, all about to round the same (left, looking upwind) gate mark. The port boats got to the 3 boat lenght circle first, so even though they are on port, they had right of way to round, and the starboard boat had to give them room, correct?

I think that's been answered, I just want to be clear.

I've got to go deal with the FAA and FAR part 121 rules for the next 4 days on my way to Dubai and back so I won't be here, but thanks for the input.

First of all, the rules at the A (windward) mark are very different than at C (leeward) mark. Rule 18.1(a) says that rule 18

does not apply between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward

. If boats on opposite beats are approaching the windward mark, it's simply a starboard/port encounter. If the port boat tacks in the zone (either ahead or inside of the other boat), then rule 18.3

Tacking When Approaching a Mark

applies. The boat that tacked then has additional obligations, even if she is ahead or leeward.

When approaching a leeward mark, the inside port-tack boat does get mark-room. In the previous (2005-2008) rules, the right-of-way also changed. In the current rules, they do not. The starboard-tack boat retains right-of-way, but has the additional obligation that she must give the inside boat mark-room. When the inside boat gybes, she changes tack, but is still the give-way boat (rule 10 switches to rule 11).

If the two boats are overlapped at the zone, it does not matter which one reaches the zone first. The outside boat must give the inside boat mark-room. See RRS 18.2(b).

If the boats are not overlapped, and the clear-ahead boat reaches the zone first, then the clear astern boat must give the ahead boat mark-room. See RRS 18.2(b).

If the boats are not overlapped, the clear-astern boat reaches the zone first, and they later become overlapped, then the outside boat must give the inside boat mark-room. See RRS 18.2(a).

I hope that helps,
Eric

So as the leeward boat, you took him up and he cried foul? Baffling... did he have a case for proper course? Leaving the mark, I'd guess not... judges have patiently explained to me that proper course is a little subjective, but it becomes clearer once you pass the midpoint between marks of the course. Regardless, as leeward boat, obviously you can take him up.

One thing I try to say as an overtaking, faster boat -

This will only hurt for a second.

I say it with a smile.

Eric, that's what I thought, thanks for clearing it up!

You all have fun sailing this weekend, should be some wind with that little Cat 1 thing coming up the east coast!

I'll be in the desert...if I can get out of Orlando!

If a leeward boat originally established overlap from clear astern within two boatlengths, and later heads the windward boat up

almost into the wind

, then she breaks rule 17

On The Same Tack; Proper Course

. The windward boat would be entirely correct to protest. The leeward boat may not sail above her proper course.

I hope that helps,
Eric

originally established overlap from clear astern within two boatlengths

Can you elaborate on this for a novice racer?
i don't really understand it