Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate:

I think the only thing that has changed is that the outside guys stopped posting. I didn't see them agree but may have missed that?

Mike

Comments like

Let's not attack the people who are here and wanting to sail and learn

and

Is it worth noting that one of those involved is still in high school?

are example of the culture of tolerance for rules ignorance.

Does anyone on this forum care how old the driver was who wrecked your boat because he lacked rules knowledge? We need to start telling each other that this is unacceptable instead of excusing it - this situation will not change if we keep allowing it and making excuses for it. We need to hold ourselves responsible and each other. Let's start now. No more excuses. It is NOT an attack to call someone out for racing under the influence of ignorance. It is NOT a bad thing to protest - it is our duty to know, follow, and ENFORCE the rules. Does anyone ever see referees on our race courses? That is our responsibility.

This is a particularly good time to start since there is a new four year period of the rules (as mentioned above), between the Summer Olympic games and the changes are relatively minor and already well explained online with free downloads.

I've no tolerance for intolerance or the ignorance that presumes intolerance is tolerable. Good bye.

Mike you post very abrupt statements full of authority but this earlier post of yours in my opinion was totally wrong and showed no knowledge of the new rules have you changed your interpretation of the rules

Well I feel like this situation has went too far. All I was wondering was honestly who had the right, now that I look at it we were overlapped and they did deserve mark room. But the fact was that I still gave room and they took a bit to much. It says seaman like way, not the fastest so that's all I'm saying but anyways sorry if I offended anyone. I just don't like when people post stuff on the internet being completely bias without the other's opinion. So that's my reason for being a little rude earlier.Thanks for the comments and advice everyone.

Goodnight

It happens, we've all been there. Just learn from it an keep up the good work, we all want you guys to succeed!

It hasn't gone too far, it's a great discussion that most people have learnt from except you. You still don't acknowledge that you erred because you didn't know the rules, you made 3 boats collide by yelling starboard in the 3 boat zone and luffing them up. Say sorry you have learnt or you will continue to look silly

I learned that they did have the right for room around the mark which I did give them, but I didn't luff them up. After they continued to take too much I headed them up a bit. Collision only happened because he didn't head up a bit when I called for too much room and i gave him time to react.

When you head some one up you luff them up, you cannot head the boat above you up until he has room to head up or you are creating a collision, I have posted politely and repetatively with examples and facts but you still don't understand. You are either arrogant or a dimwit go and read the rules.

Sorry that was a typo, but wow no need to be mean. I know my rules but exactly what you said unless he has room, which he did at the moment. You were not there so you don't know what happened, just saying.

Personally, I have learned from this discussion and it was worthwhile. I have had a very hard time learning all of the rules, reading them online and memorizing is pretty different than applying them on the race course when things are happening quickly.

It's extremely frustrating when someone walks up to me after racing and tells me I fouled them with no explanation at all. It's an attitude that is luckily not common in the local guys, but is not encouraging at all to newer guys.

Lots of people will scream to read the rules, but putting it all together on the water takes experience. I'm not asking for tolerance or ignorance, but take every opportunity to teach and help others learn.

Joe, the other lesson that was hard for me to accept; you can be 100% in the right, go to the room, and lose. Once you're in the room, you've surrendered control. That was what led me to be so proactive about avoiding a situation like the one you describe. As you can see in this thread, recollection is fallible, stories can be difficult to sort out, and perspective changes everything. Know your rules, sure, and like Mike says, be prepared to obey and enforce them. But also listen to the little voice in your head that says,

don't go in there, Skipper.

Joe, I did go up, but only a foot, because that's all the room there was, until I was brushing up against the boat above me, who was right up against the boat above him, who was right up against the mark.

You needed to give all 3 inside boats room to round the mark, without hitting the mark, and some room between each of us (more than 12" would be nice) so we can all turn without rubbing each other.

We're nearly there FDUB I was trying to post a short response which was why it came out mean, here is your problem you say he had room so you hit him as you luffed him. You have now broken the main rule of seamanship you collided when you could have avoided, the sailor clearly had no space or would not have hit the boat inside him while you were hitting him this proves the no space rule. You should have given room, flew your red flag and demanded redress in the room after the race, you would then call your witnesses that would defend your protest, the other skippers would have called their witnesses, regardless of how this case came out there would have been a safe race with no damage to boats. I would be very surprised if your protest was upheld as I can't see the new catamaran sailor who yelled starboard when last in the 3 boat circle would be well equipped to work out how much space is enough as opposed to the 3 experienced sailors he forced to collide. I think it's wonderful that you are enthusiastic about cat sailing and would encourage you to consider sailing aggressively but courteously within the rules so that you are welcomed and encouraged on the beach instead of the alternative. Just acknowlege you were wrong by forcing a collision without making any excuses and you go back to rockstar

Thanks for the advice John, I understand what you're saying. Been there, done that! lol Trust me I would have gone behind the inside boat, but to make the mark I was going strait downwind so we went from being far ahead to being right in the middle with all them and I didn't want to loose more ground with the position I had at the moment. Things happen ya learn. I'm tired of arguing though, because no matter what I or anyone says in this conversation they will think they are right, so see ya later!

FDUB

What you should ALSO learn is what kind of evidence would you need to take into the protest room to make your case...

You assert that you gave all of the inside boats sufficient room to make a sea manlike rounding... you assert that in the conditions... that Jeff S's interpretation is not correct... You may be right.... So... Now what... Each post you make reveals more FACTS about your actions... and the inside boats actions.

So... your goal is to turn your assertions of what happened... into FACTS FOUND.... so you have to generate testimony that support your assertion and that turns them into facts...

OK... What questions are you going to ask each boat in the pin wheel.

What FACTS do you want the protest committee to agree to.

What witness's are you going to call to support those FACTS .... What do you expect them to testify to and What questions will you ask to get to FACTS.

What questions do you expect to answer about the FACTS...
What is your explanation for heading up... Luffing or sailing your proper course around the mark... (get a rule book here)

This PROCESS WILL BE CRITICAL once you are part and parcel to a collision with damages. Your insurance will ask for the PC report. So... getting Facts Found on site by third party sailors is really important in the future. It will cost you your deductible if you don't pay attention now and learn how to manage the situation.

If I were you.... I would ASK THE JUDGES on this thread....What questions they would be asking.... What FACTS they will be looking for...

THEN... you can worry about the rules and how they apply in this situation. THEN you can decide what further actions you could or should take.

So... don't stop now.... learn all you can from this incident... it's a very cheap education.

(PS.... Lots of people will benefit from your courage in pressing onwards)

Will you quit trying to argue? How can you say all 3 are experienced if you don't even know all the boats involved? Just because we made a mistake doesn't mean we don't know our rules.

Regards.

Mark has some good advice, which may help with the situation JDub describes above (being 100% right, or at least believing you are, and still losing in the room). This happens even with highly experienced PCs, because it all comes down to what (and how) information is presented in the protest hearing.

Here's another clue: You were not as far ahead as you think if you would up like that picture shows. Stop telling yourself that, because it's clouding your mind. And, even a boatlength or more lead isn't truly a lead if the positions work against you, especially at marks, and this is true on any type of boat.

Mike

Ok we now know that the outside boat should have given room, well I think we have. I had an almost exact same scenario recently with a Mustoo skiff at a mark, we both arrived in the zone almost simultaneously and yes as he was the slower boat ( just ) I gave him room to round the mark.

But these skiffies are incrediably competative and he carried on straight ahead to ensure he slowed me down over the water enough to win on handicap ( yes these top class sailors do think of these things ). My question is at what stage can I just luff him up because he's being a prat or can he, as he did, just carry on straight ahead ( which incidentally let 3 other boats through behind.

Tack away - if he's looking back at you and holding a line to keep you pinned, it is time to go. Every second counts, especially on the boats catching you from behind - they still have kites up and are making up more than a second for every second that passes for you. As my pilots friends say,

ejectejecteject!

By carry on straight ahead do you mean he luffed up to a close hauled course but continued to sit on your air, or he rounded the mark then continued to sail below a close hauled course? These are two different scenarios. In trying to answer your question we need several definitions and a couple rules:

Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her
proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include
room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room.

Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in
the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat
has no proper course before her starting signal.

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat
shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above
her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped
within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails
astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap
begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

From your description it sounds like there was an overlap when the first boat entered the zone. The outside boat was therefore required to give the inside boat room to sail to the mark, and her proper course while at the mark. It sounds like you gave the boat room to sail to the mark. Proper course is defined as A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term.. Therefore, I believe the proper course of the inside boat is to round the mark, and promptly luff to a close hauled course, as this is the course she would sail in the absence of other boats. I also believe this allows the inside boat to make a tactical rounding, as that would be the course they would sail in the absence of other boats, and thus their proper course.

The term at the mark is slightly ambiguous, but I generally take it to mean when the hull is overlapped with the mark, and luffing up would create contact with the mark. It is un-seamanlike to luff a boat into a mark.

So, to answer your question, if the boat did not luff up to a close hauled after rounding the mark, I believe they would not be sailing their proper course (assuming the next mark is to windward), and would then be violating rule 11 as a windward boat.

Now, after you have left the mark, rules 11 and 17 govern the situation, and how the overlapped was established is important. The windward boat must always keep clear under rule 11, but rule 17 places restrictions on the actions of the leeward boat. If the overlapped was established from clear astern (likely as you said you were the faster boat) then a rule 17 overlap exists. In that case the leeward boat cannot sail above their proper course. The fact that it is the leeward boat's proper course is important here.

So, if after rounding the mark, and while the boats were overlapped, the windward boat failed to keep clear, causing the leeward boat to sail below their proper course, the windward boat is in the wrong.

Does that make sense?

One more thing to add, if the inside boat entered the zone on the opposite tack and then gybed, the overlap would be considered instantaneous. In that case, rule 17 would not apply after rounding the mark and the leeward boat could luff windward to head to wind.

A really good way to experience all of these scenarios is to go team race!

An even better way to go learn these rules is to judge team racing, or at least fly the flags on a judge boat. Really really high level team racing requires all boats to have 110% certainty on the rules and the skippers will be calling overlaps in real time.

This thread has been valuable I think to all involved, and at least for me will prove beneficial this weekend while racing in a 40 boat fleet with pro's and automatic scoring penalties in place of doing turns.

I think it is very important to leave emotion out of rules discussions and most everyone on this thread is guilty of that to some extent, and I have been in the past. Learn the process, learn how to file a protest and don't be afraid to go in the room ever. Even if you loose a race you will gain valuable knowledge.

It also pays to know who the rules experts are in your fleet and ask them questions.

Jeff..

I assume that by TACTICAL... you mean... enter wide come out close to the mark.

If So... I disagree with your interpretation.... My understanding is that Mark Room means that you sail directly to and round the mark in a seamanlike manner. ...

Anyone else have an opinion on this one?

Noting that TACTICAL ROUNDING is no longer a definition in the rules and used here as a description for enter wide... come out tight.

Hmmm that's a tricky one, but at least for the past 4 years under the current rules we've still been applying tactical and seamanlike in the room and on the water. Maybe I'm smoking crack but if 2 boats are overlapped on starboard, and the overlap was established by the boat originally clear astern, the inside boat has room to make a tactical rounding and the outside boat cannot luff her above her proper course. In team racing the otuside boat would gybe twice quickly to re-establish overlap but the inside boat can still make a tactical rounding, the outside boat now has room to take the inside boat head to wind past the mark and let their teammates slip by. That is my understanding, hopefully I'm not wrong...

Mark, I think we agree. I believe you are entitled to room for a tactical rounding, but only while at the mark. Before you are at the mark, you only have room to sail to the mark, so sailing well wide in an effort to round

wide and tight

is not sailing to the mark. While at the mark, however, I believe you are entitled to room to make a smooth, fast rounding, because that would be your proper course in the absence of other boats.

In practice, that means the inside boat doesn't have to make a super aggressive turn at the mark which would stall their boat and kill speed- that is not their proper course.

Sam, I umpire a lot of team racing, it is a lot of fun, and you learn a lot. For me the highlights have been the High School Nationals, NEISA Champs, and Opti TR Nationals... the level of racing at all three was great!

Sometimes you can know all the steps and still not know how to dance.

Wow! Great clarification Jeff..

Thank god... would have been a major faux pax to figure this out at the END of the quad.

Words in this game matter.... Now I really get why they were so keen on us sailors dropping the term TACTICAL rounding from our discussions of Mark Room. ...

One more regatta this weekend.... NOBODY should introduce the new rules (ERIC!) into this discussion until MONDAY... thank you very much.

Ah but sorry I forgot an important part here, the course was a 4 sided course with only one mark and to tack away I would have been going in totally the wrong direction. Would it have been better to do a 360 and hopefully force him to then tack around the mark, either way I was screwed by a slower boat and really not much that I could do about it, is there any point outside of the mark zone where sportsmanship comes into play ?

The terms

tactical rounding

and

seamanlike rounding

, like

barging

, are often used when explaining the rules, but are not actually mentioned in the rules. They are convenient shorthand, but can lead to misconceptions about a boat's obligations at a mark.

Also, the definitin of

mark-room

has changed in the 2013-2016 rules. If we're going to discuss the limits of mark-room, we should decide which set of rules to use. The differences are slight, but real.

If people want to talk about how to present a case in the protest room, I'm willing to put together some pointers. That would probably best be done in a new thread, though.

Regards,
Eric