At a regatta over the weekend, Beachcats were sharing a course with some small monohulls (Flying Scots, Windmills, 420's). The SI's stated that there would be two windward marks, the inner mark (for the monos) would be a RED tetraheydran (sp?), and the outer mark would be a YELLOW tetraheydan. On day one of the regatta this was correct on the water. However, on day two, the mark boat mixed up the marks and put the YELLOW mark inside, and the RED mark outside. Going up the first leg (really light air) we found ourselves behind and contemplated rounding the YELLOW mark to gain advantage on the boats that were still sailing upwind to the RED mark. Of course, we opted to follow and round the mark that was in the proper location even though it was the wrong color. IF we had chosen to round the YELLOW mark, would we have sailed the proper course?
My guess would be that if the SI lists the Yellow buoy as the mark for the monohull fleet, you should round that one regardless of where it sits.
If, however the SIs refer to
outer course
and
inner course
, you'd probably have to round the further buoy regardless of color/shape.
Unless, of course, the RC is flying the appropriate flag to indicate course/buoy changes.
What was the PRO's response to your inquiry (assuming you or someone else inquired)?
The SI's had diagrams included showing the courses for the different fleets as well as listing colors for the marks. The issue was not brought up with the RC. Only one race was run on Sunday and it was shortened due to dying (dead) breeze.
Yellow was for Multi, not mono in the SI's.
If the SI's specified the inner/outer courses directly in conjunction with the respective color, as a sailor and as you did, I have to respect
intent
...clearly they didn't mean to send the monohulls around the longer course.
However, from a technical perspective, someone would need to protest the race committee. The race committee would really have no choice but to discard the races that were run with the marks in the wrong position since the SI's were in conflict with themselves due to a race committee error. I suspect that if someone protested another sailor on this issue, the result would also be that the race(s) would be completely discarded for everyone.
No, you did the right thing for the right reason.
Depends how the SIs were written. If they only specify mark color for each class, then yes, you could have rounded the correct colored mark.
If the SIs referred to the multi-hulls sailing longer distance legs, or some language of that sort, then things would be messy.
Remember, a competitor may not protest the race committee, they can only request redress.
Refer to Attachment I.
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Oooo...that's different and starts to get fuzzy. It doesn't differentiate multi-hull course vs. monohull course / long vs. short. It just says for Flying Scot, Windmill, 420, mutihulls
Short Weather Mark - Red
and
Long Weather Mark - Yellow
. In my opinion, the SI's fall short of defining what the long and short marks are and how they'll be used. The interpretation is left up to something that would apparently be vocalized in the skippers meeting...i.e., you can't tell which marks you should sail around if you are a multihull just from reading the SIs....or there could have been some amendment posted to the notice board (which would have been the way to handle it if caught at that time).
In this case, if I was told to sail the
Long course
(and actually read the SI's for a change), I would probably sail to the color of the mark and ignore the positioning of it relative to the other mark. There's nothing that says the long course will be outside the short course or how they relate to each other - only what color it is.
Long
and
short
really don't mean anything in this context other than the name of the course because they're not defined with any relationship to the other.
You should have just done it, would have been good for a laugh on the beach <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
To take this a little further I only remember seeing W2S for everyone... so...
So given the same situation what would you do next time and would you really want to be that guy?
It wouldn't have been the first time someone led the fleet around the wrong mark, either
So given the same situation what would you do next time and would you really want to be that guy?
So.....SI's said the short course was red. If the course board said W2S (I guess I should have paid closer attention to that) for all the classes, do you think all the other classes sailed the wrong course?
So given the same situation what would you do next time and would you really want to be that guy?
So.....SI's said the short course was red. If the course board said W2S (I guess I should have paid closer attention to that) for all the classes, do you think all the other classes sailed the wrong course?
OK, I take it back...the diagrams do explain the relationship between long and short - however, nothing technically ties the label 1S and 1L but common sense may prevail on that one...If the RC was challenged on this and it could be shown that someone was unfairly disadvantaged as a result of the error, the RC would have to erase the race result because of the conflict in the mark color and position on the SI's vs. what actually went in the water.
With regards to proper course; if you guys were all sailing the W2S, which is supposed to be the shorter course around the inner buoy on the diagram, nobody technically sailed an improper course because you still rounded the inner course mark and the outer course mark. The only question is did you sail farther than you needed to. String rule applies, the mark that didn't need to be rounded wasn't technically a mark on the course, and everyone still sailed a
proper course
since they all went to the long one.
However, had someone sailed around the incorrectly colored inner course mark effectively sailing a shorter course, this would illuminate the conflict in the SI's and someone would have been unfairly disadvantaged as a result.
So.....SI's said the short course was red. If the course board said W2S (I guess I should have paid closer attention to that) for all the classes, do you think all the other classes sailed the wrong course?
Saturday: Mono's no, Multi's yes but it's fuzzy
Sunday: Everyone yes, but it's fuzzy.
At the end of the day we knew which course we were supposed to sail and it was easy to see what happen with the top marks (oopsee mark boat). It wasn't like there was a change of course and we rounded the old mark.
Something else to think about, the red mark was a pain in the a$$ to see/find maybe the mono guys bent the ear of the RC and got the color of their A mark changed for Sunday. Did anyone check the notice board Sunday morning? It was their party after all.
If it came down to a protest I really think that Sunday would have been tossed for everyone and that is just my opinion based on past experience.
So given the same situation what would you do next time and would you really want to be that guy?
So.....SI's said the short course was red. If the course board said W2S (I guess I should have paid closer attention to that) for all the classes, do you think all the other classes sailed the wrong course?
OK, I take it back...the diagrams do explain the relationship between long and short - however, nothing technically ties the label 1S and 1L but common sense may prevail on that one...If the RC was challenged on this and it could be shown that someone was unfairly disadvantaged as a result of the error, the RC would have to erase the race result because of the conflict in the mark color and position on the SI's vs. what actually went in the water.
With regards to proper course; if you guys were all sailing the W2S, which is supposed to be the shorter course around the inner buoy on the diagram, nobody technically sailed an improper course because you still rounded the inner course mark and the outer course mark. The only question is did you sail farther than you needed to. String rule applies, the mark that didn't need to be rounded wasn't technically a mark on the course, and everyone still sailed a
proper course
since they all went to the long one.
However, had someone sailed around the incorrectly colored inner course mark effectively sailing a shorter course, this would illuminate the conflict in the SI's and someone would have been unfairly disadvantaged as a result.
Not if they jibed right away. Only the boats that held the starboard course past the inner 'A' would have technically rounded it and that is assuming they passed below the inner 'A' on port before tacking onto the starboard layline.
They also didn't round correctly if they came in on suicide port and held after rounding.
So given the same situation what would you do next time and would you really want to be that guy?
So.....SI's said the short course was red. If the course board said W2S (I guess I should have paid closer attention to that) for all the classes, do you think all the other classes sailed the wrong course?
OK, I take it back...the diagrams do explain the relationship between long and short - however, nothing technically ties the label 1S and 1L but common sense may prevail on that one...If the RC was challenged on this and it could be shown that someone was unfairly disadvantaged as a result of the error, the RC would have to erase the race result because of the conflict in the mark color and position on the SI's vs. what actually went in the water.
With regards to proper course; if you guys were all sailing the W2S, which is supposed to be the shorter course around the inner buoy on the diagram, nobody technically sailed an improper course because you still rounded the inner course mark and the outer course mark. The only question is did you sail farther than you needed to. String rule applies, the mark that didn't need to be rounded wasn't technically a mark on the course, and everyone still sailed a
proper course
since they all went to the long one.
However, had someone sailed around the incorrectly colored inner course mark effectively sailing a shorter course, this would illuminate the conflict in the SI's and someone would have been unfairly disadvantaged as a result.
Not if they jibed right away. Only the boats that held the starboard course past the inner 'A' would have technically rounded it and that is assuming they passed below the inner 'A' on port before tacking onto the starboard layline.
They also didn't round correctly if they came in on suicide port and held after rounding.
true...I quit now. tooo much brain power needed.
Minor points:
The RC MAY abandon, does not HAVE to.
A protest committee, in hearing a request for redress, or as a result of a protest hearing from one boat vs. another, MAY abandon the race. They could also decide a different arrangement would be appropriate.
Hypothetically speaking... Suppose the RC did set this up intentionally, and had posted the SI change on the board; even if only one boat went around the inner mark, it would be difficult for the RC or the protest committee to justify abandoning the race, or even granting redress. The error would have been committed by the sailors who failed to check the board.
Fortunately, the sailors actually came up with the best answer in this case. So long as they all went around the same weather mark, regardless of the string rule on the inner mark, no one was at a disadvantage and the race was saved, probably the only way both of these results could have been achieved in that case. If the leaders went around the inner mark, and all others followed, I would argue that would have been an equally acceptable solution.
The SIs aren't the best, but it sounds like this was compounded by two RC errors on the water. The RC owes the fleet some beer over this one, as the sailors saved the race.
If the RC did this intentionally, but failed to communicate this to the sailors as an SI change on the official notice board (skippers meeting would be a courtesey), that would also be an error.
Mike
what he said. <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
BTW, I don't think those SIs are especially terrible (I've seen similar ones that worked out just fine), but they sure could be simplified. My preference is separate division appendices (one set of course diagrams for each circle, inlcude only what the sailors on that circle need to know for sailing on that circle).
And, all of my
posturing
about who's fault it is if a change is made correctly, and sailors fail to pick up on it really was just to illustrate some rules issues.
At any regatta, if the RC has done everything by the book and the sailors are confused, the RC probably won't be invited back, or that fleet may not return. Part of our job is communication and training; those things are just as important as setting a fair course.
Mike