This one is for the kids.

Good point. As far as I know, homebuilt Optimists have always been class legal and it has never been a problem.

The likely reason is that, like the F12 and Blade 12, good engineering and simple but detailed construction instructions are complemented by mandatory watertight compartments and/or fixed flotation aids.

Sinking is not an option, so a boat that can sink is not class legal.

Thanks for questioning. It is the best way to test if all the details are properly covered. Keep it coming.

What ever gave you that idea ?

I think this has been covered plenty of times even with you personally and otherwise the public statement has been on the F12 website ever since Januari 2007.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/F12/

And I though fish has a short memory span. <img src=

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Phill Blade 12 is intended for young kids, which I think refers to as 7-10 year olds. My F12 is intended for solo sailing (that includes small short course racing as well) for 12+ year olds. Doublehanded if they start younger. On the other side of the spectrum are adult women and very light adult males.

It is not a scaled down F16 as it only has a single unstayed mainsail, no daggerboards or even a mainsheet tackle system like the F16's.

With respect to fitting a windsurfer rig to the F12 or Blade 12 this is how you do it :

Basically you keep the bottom section of the alu mast tubing and fit the front of the windsurfer boom to its top. The windsurfer mast foot is then fitted to a plate that is bolted or welded to the backside of the mainbeam. But I caution you, most windsurfer rigs are very flexible and will pump in unstable wind on a craft like a landyacht or F12. I've found this out by test sailing several mast on this vehical :

The mast show actually has a timbed rod with 40 mm diameter tucked up its inside for the first 2 meter to get the lower portion stiff enough to give is a nice behaviour in gusts. Another mast I test had a 2 mm thick wall aluminium tube hammered into the bottom but pumped like crazy still.

Also take a look at Grobs craft to see the same setup used on a sailboat.

Wouter

How about buying the hulls as you would with other gear and finish the craft off yourself ?

These small 12 footers are alot smaller and easier to work on then a F18 or something.

I live in a high rise building and I've been working on my 6 landyachts requlary using the parking lot in front of the building. You'll be surprised how easy it is. The only major undertaking are building the hulls, the rest is pretty simple and can be done everywhere.

I have restitched my F16 jib two times already in my living room (one time by hand even) and my living room is small. A F12 mainsail will not require that much more space or be more difficult.

It is not envisioned that homebuilding will produce most of the boats, it is just an important way of starting the class after which (hopefully) a small commercial builder can be interested when the concept has been proven.

Wouter

Unsinkable.

I hope I don't bore anybody with my comments but this is the unsinkable setup that I was considering.

A bag is made from fine mazed netting (screen door netting) that sits more or less in the hull between the two bulkheads supporting the beams. This netting is filled with small balls of foam packing material that the industry uses. I think we all know this stuff. The netting is there to prevent the balls from escaping through any large crack in the hulls.

As this foam is in small ball format it can always be taken out through the inspect port and be replace by new balls when it ages or has soaked up to much water of time.

This granulate can even be made yourself by breaking up styrofoam. Typically common variaty styrofoam weights 10kg/cubic meter. I checked that a while ago. This means that even if the complete hull is filled (about 300 liter) that the stuff will only weight 3kg in total. Of course 150 kg floatation will be quite enough (1.5 kg per hull).

Wouter

I like that idea. Having the hulls already completed will open up the class to kit builders that would not tackle composite construction.

And lets not overlook the fact that a 12 foot hull (basically 0.35x0.45x3.75 mtr by 17.5 kg) is very easy and cheap to transport, both nationally and internationally. Especially with a mast that collapses to less then 3.75 mtr length as show in this thread :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showthre...ge=0#Post124554

A home-

assembler

can order 2 hulls (symmetrical) and the mast SECTIONS from a small commercial builder and finish the boat/mast off himself, sourcing the other stuff where he can. In my design the beams are made of the same section as the lower mast section so these can be send with the package as well, preferably with predrilled holes for the bolts. Most building stuff is then sawing, drilling and fitting parts together.

Buying and fitting stuff like the rudder pintles should be withing reach of most persons. Homemaking things like the trampoline is also easily done. Painting the craft, etc.

So this could indeed by a viable option if a small commercial builder is found somewhere. We will have to take care to have the hulls easily and quickly produced to make it economically attractive for such a small builder.

Wouter

Have you looked to the kit car industry to see which makers have been successful and why? I believe Factory Five Racing has built a very successful paradigm in the Cobra kit car market. The kit is intended to use the drivetrain from a donor vehicle (Mustang) which dramatically increased the range of potential builders by simplifying the build process. So your comments on using existing rudder assemblies and such are right on. Actually be able to tell the builders what ones work and how to attach them. Obviously the Hobie line is an excellent source.

I would even suggest contacting FFR and picking there brains on their ideas on what worked and what didn't. Including marketing- which probably be the biggest hurdle.

http://www.factoryfive.com/rdsterhome.html

I'd be happy just to cut the old Hobie 14 hulls off my kid's boat and use everything on a new set of F12 hulls, mast, sail, rudders, tramp, etc. Think of the money you could save by purchasing a beat up 14 (the hulls are usually the thing that's beat) for $300 and using all the good stuff on new hulls. Of course you would need wires to hold the mast up but that should be easy enough to install.

Wouldn't work on my F12. The problem is not adding the

wires

(stays) but the loading they put on the boat as a whole. The bows will need to be reinforced to take the forestay loadings, side stay hardpoints will need to be added, the mainbeam will need to be reinforced to handle the massive mast step load. Boom will far to large so the mainsheet that attaches to the middle of the boom now will need to be increased putting higher loads on the

traveller setup

I have in mind, which probably can't take it. And then you don't want a 11 sq. mtr. mainsail on a 12 foot platform anyway. The F12 is more or less optimal with 7.00 to 8.00 sq.mtr and added 60%-40% sailarea will not make the craft

more controllable

.

I think you can use the rudders, tiller and tiller extension of the H14, maybe even cut down the trampoline and use some blocks and other fittings and that is about it.

Forget about the Hobie beams, more trouble then they are worth, bloody curved things with heaps of special fittings. Just buy two straight alu tubes for 150 bucks and get it done right.

Wouter

Wait an minute here, something doesn't add up.
You're saying that it is going to be easier to 'homebuild' one of these for youth sailing than to just learn how to rig a Hobie Wave, Dragoon, whatever? The dad that can't fix his garage door is going to assemble a boat?

International transport will be much easier, but nationally? How does it get easier than throwing it on a trailer.

Here in the US, there are thousands of Hobie 14's just rotting in peoples back 40. You can find them all day for $500- $1000, and sometimes you can get them for free. Why aren't those boats on the water with youth on them? The real problem as I said before is not boat design, it's the support system around the boat.

I love the design, don't get me wrong. To be successful though, it will need a some serious support on the back end.

Does that hurt the ozone layer?...sorry <img src=

alt=

/> carry on

Actually I think that is precisely part of what Wouter and others have been saying for a long time. I think you may have difficulty building a support system around a bunch of disused 10+ y.o. boats.

And the comparison between the complexity of building a boat and the complexity of rigging a boat misses the issue by a wide margin. The problem is not that people are not capable of rigging a complex boat. The problem is that these people have kids who aren't excited about standing around while someone rigs a boat for them, nor about doing it themselves.

Naw, Hobies were made with recycled bottles and hemp plant stocks back in the early '70's. As you saw, I didn't cover it in my global warming rant. <img src=

alt=

/>

Let's see...we got boat design covered, the racing scene covered, global warming covered, the Olympics, a little politic speak, what's missing?

What do you think about starting a thread on religion here too.
Now that would be some winter time fun! <img src=

alt=

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alt=

/> <img src=

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We don't want to blow our whole arsenal so early into the winter though.

No more hijacking. This thread is about a cool boat for the youth.

Mark,
I don't know about Wouter, but that is a part of what got meworking on this concept.
Also those old 14ft cats cater for older kids. There is nothing that fits just right for the younger ones.
Light, simple, easy to rig and look fast sitting on the beach. This is what is needed.

Regards,
Phill

Got it. You're probably right on for the younger than say 12 market. This forum is great market research for your project!

Doesn't that Hobie Bravo have some kind of a freestanding rig, like Wouter's land yachts? Has anyone even seen one up close or ever sailed a Hobie Bravo? Granted it doesn't look nearly as cool as Phil's Blade 12.

Post deleted by Wouter

That is what I'm aiming at because if we don't get them by 12 some other sport will already have them.
And if they get into the sport once they hit twelve they can start rigging their own boats.
So if the parents/instructors have to rig a bunch of boats it has to be quick and easy.

Regards,
Phill

What about the older than 12 market? I realize that you're trying to get youth involved but how would this boat hold up to a 160lb adult skipper? Reason I ask is I've wanted to build a boat for a while. The projected price is very inviting as well. Besides, pitchpole-ing on a hot summer day is kinda fun.

Yep, plenty of room for disagreement here. We can and should speculate on what will be successful in the market, but answers to this kind of question aren't always cut and dried. Ultimately people just have to build what they think is going to be successful and test it out in the real world. Good luck to all of you!

Phil:

Right on we need something that will make there eyes pop out. something that is just like the current big boy boats. Something that could also generate an A cat champ. Keep up the good work. You are right on.

Doug

There appears to be two projects for 12 footers :

The Blade 12 (Phill, strict OD ? )

For kids : probably under 12 years of age. Sail area smaller then the laser dinghy (same with respect to F12). Not much else is know with regard to specs.

The F12 (multi manufacturer relative open OD class or true formula ; Wouter and others)

For youths and light adults : over 12 years of age ; optimal racing for 40-65 kg crews (90 lbs -145 lbs) = 12-16 year olds and adult women, but should take adults up to 80 kg (175 lbs) well in a recreational sense. Beyond those weights the sail area will be a bit small and it will be doubtful whether you'll fly the hull often; boat will however float well till crew weight up to 250 kg. Sail area is the same as the Laser dinghy : 7.00 sq. mtr. on a 6.000 mtr tall mast. performance with adult will be about the same as the Hobie Wave and it'll be about 15 % faster then the Laser dinghy with same crew. Performance with youth (12-16 years) on it will be close to the standard Hobie 14. Lifting of hull while hiking by 55 kg skipper will be about the same as a 150 kg crew on a F18. This data applies to a F12 that has the following dimensions : 3.75 x 2.00 mtr by 65 kg with 7.00 sq. mtr. sail on 5.30 mtr luff on 6.000 mtr mast (aspect ratio of 4 = tad lower then F18). It appears that Retired Geek, Scarecrow and Wouter are all working on F12's with these general dimensions.

Both projects had the same origins in 2003 but Phill and I eventually disagreed on several aspects, of which this is one and so a split happened. It sounds like the F12 is more up your ally. But I wouldn't be surprised if Phill comes out with a Blade F12 later on that is upgraded for 12+ usage. The chances needed are not too big afterall.

Wouter

Sailing Anarchy

This is what we need to be shooting for in the states for cats! A PROGRAM

We have been told... we need a development program for cat racers.

Well.... the monohulls were told... you need a development program for skiff racers.

AYC is stepping up to the plate. They plan to put their racers into the 29ners.

So... IMO this is Good News! ... We are not that far behind.... fact of the matter is that there is NO 29ner racing in the mid atlantic jr or senior.... Fact of the matter... there is NO 49ner or skiff racing either... but we have LOTS of multihull racing. More importantly, there actually is a junior racing program already on the east coast... (Pat B has spoken about how succesful it is Syracuse area). Bottom line, the race for the hearts and minds starts now...

Lets be clear its not Phil v the rest of the world. My efforts on this project are directed firmly on the under 12 and always have been as I agree with Phil as this is the market that needs addressing.

Gareth

YES!! <img src=

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I refered to the two active projects at this time. I didn't know you have an active project, Gareth.

Wouter

Why do you think I have dropped out? I have everything except the hulls and hope to have them by the end of Feb.

Which two projects do you count as active? I know of Phil and RG, whats happened to yours?

Gareth

It's a beautiful boat Phil.

I think the mast step system and the way it distributes the load is a good. The loads on the base of an unstayed mast on a cat are pretty big. I will send you a PM.

There is talk of a youth program at GYC in the coming year. When will plans be ready?

Grob,

Well, the last I heared about your own project was this spring I believe. I'd assumed the project had stalled a nothing new was presented to the world since then. Even back then the project wasn't very far advanced, I can only remember 2 CAD drawings of it, no specs or detailed components.

Unbelievable, don't you guys read anything ?

I'm currently the only one to have produced a design will full detailed listing of the weights and costs of each component. The specs of my design have been fixed and I'm currently the only one with a fully worked out mast design. I'm also the only one who has tested several components for the F12 in real life. Granted, most of it was on a landyacht but mast loadings are mast loadings whether the mast is stepped on a sail boat or landyacht. Add to that things like detailed performance comparisons to the Laser dinghy and I think I got a pretty decent lead on all of the others.

I'm very thankful for your contributions to the F12 project, but you of all people should know what happened to my design, it continued when all others discontinued it. I got the private e-mails to you to proof it.

Wouter