This one is for the kids.

some of the supercats had the cross bar in front of the mainsheet.

Hobie Wave has the tiller bar in front of the mainsheet as well :

While it is not a common feature on beachcats it is not new either, I remember seeing it on some other small cats as well.

Wouter

I think Phill's design is awesome and applaud Wouter's work to get the F16 off the ground and now with the F12- BUT, please explain how the Hobie Wave (or any other small simple cats) cannot fill the role of beginner cat racer trainer? The only knock I see on the Wave is the weight.

First off, cool design. For the sake of thinking things through. How is it that kids are going to jump all over this boat and sail it? How is it different (not design wise) than say the Hobie Dragoon?

I know a few divisions here in the states bought several Dragoons and they just sat on the trailers and rotted.

How is it that this boat will be made popular while so many other's failed? I guess what I'm trying to say is,

What are WE going to do differently to MAKE it popular with the youth?

When push comes to shoove any small catamaran can be used as a youth trainer/beginner boat. Sailing is sailing and anything with two hulls is a catamaran.

Still there are other considerations that we like to factor in. The Hobie Wave doesn't really come out on top in those area's and as the Wave is pretty non existant in area's outside of USA the choice for any cat or even a new design is pretty open. All will have to be grown from the bottom up in several world area's anyway so why not see if we can get to total balance right.

Personally, I feel the wave is not sexy enough to attract the youngsters of today and it also weights ALOT (it is heavier then a F16 !) , It's rig can be much improved and the image of the Wave is wrong in my opinion. It is mostly a resort boat and not really a performance oriented youth trainer. Comments I gethered last year about youth sailing the Wave were not overwhelmingly positive. As such it is not a clear winner, several of us feel the design can easily be improved upon. I do feel the youth deserve us getting their design right.

A side consideration is that the F12 is moving in a direction that is much cheaper and easily repaired using local resources. The unstayed rig is easily build/repaired by Dad using a metal saw and screw driver.

But I fully admit that other people may weight these points differently. We'll see which design wins out in the end.

Wouter

I've sailed the dragoon quite often and it is basically a small version of the larger spinnaker cats like the F18 and as such have all the drawbacks of these. Mostly it takes time to rig them up fully. The dragoon also weights alot, it weights the same as an F16 and takes the same effort to rig and transport (trailer).

F12 is much more like a laser dinghy, albeit much lighter. (de)Rigging it will be a flash, 5 min max. This boat can be sailing on an impulse. Roof topping is will be really practical.

Now I agree getting kids involved is always a difficult task, that won't change. But the F12 aims at making all other obstacles to sailing it (like rigging and dragging it) negligiably small.

Personally, I've been contacted by adults who are interested in the F12 for their own use. I think that when adults are sailing this boat that kids will consider sailing it sooner as well. It won't be so much a kiddies boat, which in my experience kids don't like. I have been wanting a simple, throw about and have fun boat like the F12 myself too. So I also believe that the F12 is more then just a youth boat; it will be an entry boat as well. Part of the growth and class support will come from this group as well. For the sailors that want a design they can take out for when they have 1 or 2 hours off in the afternoon or something. The dragoon doesn't attract these sailors.

Wouter

This is my rather un-experienced opinion on the matter, but there is not a simple but good looking small catamaran out there. You can look at the success of the laser and it's an incredibly simple boat to rig and proportionally it is a good looking vessel. Yes, the wave is a simple boat to rig, and while I enjoy racing on them from time to time, it's really not a good looking boat or one that could be confused as having some focus on performance. With regards to the dragoon, this boat looks to be every bit as complex as an F18...which is a bit much for the attention span of most kids.

My opinion is that the simplicity of Phil's creation will have allure. You don't have to understand sailboats or modern catamarans to put it together for a kid. Setup will be quick like the Wave, yet it is a boat that looks fast even while sitting still. The fact that you can home build, or purchase major components to do a final build yourself is a bonus. Several boats have danced with success in this size range but I don't think any of them have completely hit the target for kids. Take the Mystere 4.3 for instance, a great little boat and while it had a moment of glory, it didn't succeed - why?

I look at all these small cats directed at racing kids up to now they are either very complex or not very eye catching.

As I recollect, Div 3 had two of them. I saw them at two regattas back in 2003 or so. At one regatta they started them in the open division. The kids started each race (and made a nuisance of themselves IMHO) but never finished a race. At the other regatta the boats stayed on the trailers.

I don't have kids and don't understand them, but I think things might have gone better if they had more other kids to sail with rather than grownups.

We lose more grownup sailors due to their being too busy carting their kids around to various sporting events than to any other cause. If sailing became as cool as little league or soccer then we'd gain both the kids and their parents back. But that seems to be a very big if.

I really don't think the problem is rigging time. I know of 3 dragoons that were double stacked with F18's and ready to go to any regatta that kids wanted to sail.

These were dedicated parents who didn't mind rigging time. It never worked out, it was a youth program in a vacuum with no back up support. We need to identify the problem, then come up with a solution. Not to rain on any parades or anything, but...

Theoretical sailing experience on the Dragoon:

.5 hour drive to lake/ocean.
.5 hour rigging suiting up (actually takes me 15 min, but for the sake of argument)
XX Sailing time
.5 hour derigging
.5 hour drive home

Minimum of 2 hours.

Theoretical sailing time on a boat that's easier to rig:

.5 hour drive
.25 hour to rig
XX sailing time
.25 hour to derig
.5 hour drive home

Minimum time is 1.5 hours. .5 hour time saved.

Do you think that that .5 hour is going to get more kids into sailing?

I think we should identify the problem of why there is a lack of youth on cats. I personally don't think it's time or ease of rigging, or weight of boats. I guess this is sort of being addressed in the 'get more people into sailing' thread.

It's all interconnected tough.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread.

That's exactly what I'm talking about! The boats were there, they were sailing, but what happened? There was no back up to teach the kids how to sail. It was a program in a vacuum. That's where the problem is if you ask me.

If we look at it from further away, the same points remain just as relevant, but the picture becomes slightly different.

A kids' cat to compete in the Laser and Optimist markets needs not necessarily be the fastest one, the simplest to build, the cheapest, the most beautifull or the better engineered one.

It needs all of these and more:

a) Global acceptance, which translate into an

ideal

balance of the mentioned features and many others.
b) A strong worldwide class organization.
c) Professional builders in all continents (including homebuilders).
d) Excellent marketing.
e) Permanent support work from all cat classes, builders and sailors.

The goals and requirements are ambitious, but we trust the F12 project is a serious attempt with very real possibilities to achieve them. The Blade 12 can be seen as the first boat to be constructed partially as as result from the F12 project.

Please support Phil and all those who are volunteering their work, time and resources to create the best possible cat class for kids. It is essential for the survival of all cat classes and manufacturers, as well as the best long term response to ISAF's recent decision.

Exactly my point. And are you serious that you can rig a Dragoon in 15 minutes? I would think that a typical sailing parent that was sailing monohulls as a non-serious hobby would freak out when presented with assembly of a spin rigged sloop cat. I often get a kick out of watching people who can't figure out an Opti and there are a surprising number of them!

We get disillusioned because we deal with it every day and the rigging becomes part of the passion for some of us. For someone who has to call a repair-man when their garage door won't open, rigging a dragoon is an unimaginable feet. (yes, I had someone call out for the day at work because their garage door wouldn't open and they couldn't get their car out...and I believe them.)

Simple, easier to rig, inexpensive and good looking.
You pointed out that some people may not see rigging as an issue. When I had to rig my boat and a boat for each of my son's each time I went sailing it was.
For the parents that brought their kids to the sailing school it was. For the kids it was.
In this modern world of instant gratification every step that moves sailing in this direction for the young ,
until they are hooked, will help.
If you could find the time to read my rather lengthy post above you will see from my perspective it's all about the ones that get away.
I am at this point through my own experience as a sailing father with sailing son's and when I came up with this concept I was the head of a sailing school.
I am sure there are many people out there with different experiences that all lead them to believe there are different solutions to the problem.
To these people I say- please get to work and start implementing your solutions.
That is what I'm doing here.

I will be happy to be proven wrong provided you are proven right.

At the end of the day the result will be the same.
A growing fleet of cat sailors.

Regards,
Phill

Having sat through several meetings of my region's junior program organizational meetings.

A couple of points. Junior regattas are one day in the middle of the week. It's moms who have to get the kid's boat off the car or trailer, Weight is a HUGE concern.
They have coaching programs for parents on HOW to safely tie down and trailer the Opti!

For the Yacht Clubs... space becomes limited with 30 opti's and 20 lasers, 10 420's and now 10 cats. going out a small launch area. getting them up and down into the water must be EASY.

We have tried Junior divisions at adult cat races... Its had limited success... Better luck with a junior only cat races.

Your mileage will vary

Mark.

Phil:

I think your design is right on and if the 8 yr old grandkids end up coming to Fla later, I would one of the first to place an order if a builder is found. Keep up and good work and I vote for the daggerboard design, it will give them the feel of a bigger boat when they are ready to move on.

Doug

We had a race last year when the 4 420's with juniors capsized in the middle of a combined race. When the rescue boat went over there, they found the kids were bored and wanted to swim and capsize boats. The reaction by some was to chat them about being serious in a race but I thought it was great and it still is in my kids opinion the best days sailing they had last year.
regards

Jeff,
I think there can be too much emphasis on racing when getting the young into the sport.
The very best days we had were when we organised not
races but games on the boats.
The beauty of playing games in cats is while they are tacking, jybing, backing up and parking their boats to get the boat into the position they need. They learn really good boat handling skills without even knowing they are learning. As far as they are concerned they are just playing a game.

The added benefit is they come off the water all really happy and anxious for the next day of sailing.

Regards,
Phill

When I started sailing A 12ft surfcat as a young kid. All I wanted to do was see if I could fly a hull for as long as possable <img src=

alt=

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You got it guys fun brings them back next week and laughter brings other kids in. Like a sideshow if there's no kids on a ride screaming they give free rides. My latest entertainment for them is I've got some sheep drenching backpacks with the drenchguns so they can fill them up with salt water and attack the other boats like a big water pistol. They'll have to manouver just right or get awfully wet.
regards

I also see rigging time as a huge issue with clubs, at my club we have a two hour window to get 90 children on the water with around 20 boats, what usually happens, is half a dozen dedicated people start rigging before the children arrive so rigging time does not eat into that time, then at the end of the day the kids de-irig the boats.

So when people say rigging time is not an issue they are not talking from the perspective of one of the target markets which is cadet sailing groups with large numbers of cadets and boats.

P.S. Great design Phil, if only it could be rotomoulded!

Gareth

The mini-Blade looks very nice but IMHO is very similar to the Hobie Advance. (reinventing the wheel??)

Just a practical thought, I noticed that the Blade mast doesn't have shrouds but what happens when you tip it over on the beach? How strong is the mast?

http://www.sailinginspain.net/eng/item/MN010.html

I can see the resemblance, except for the jib, spinnaker, shrouds, curved crossbar, and trapezes. <img src=

alt=

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Storage space is always an issue at the clubs I've been a member of, more so when it comes to cats. One club I was at wouldn't let us store our JY-15's on beach wheels, because 6 of them took up

too much of the beach

. They wanted everything to stack up, like Lasers and Opti's or out on a mooring. I see this quick rig mast as a good idea, like a Laser, you can pull it out quickly and then have some racks built to store the boats stacked up, if you are going to have those issues at a club.

I wonder if a suitable windsurfer rig can be found to slip into the mast base tube? Seems you could offer a varitey of sail sizes, sort of like the Laser 4.7, Radial, full size, etc. Of course you are not going to be able to trap off that type of rig vs. a standard mast setup.

Also, if a -build it yourself- kit could be offered like the kayak kits, where every peice is pre-cut, bulkheads, resin, cloth, all that stuff included, you might sell quite a few to those who like to build. Then all they would have to do is buy the windsurfer mast/sail combo and be on their way. Boomless, and no traveler like the Wave today, would make it cheaper and easier for kids to learn.

Most of the kayak kit's I've seen sell for between $700-1,000 but that's for 16-18 feet, single hull. I'm thinking you could build two 12 foot hulls for not too much more than that, maybe double that price, ($2,000?) except you would also have to buy a tramp and cross bars, build some rudders and daggers if you are going to use daggers instead of skegs.

And the weight, the advance weights in at 115 kg (255 lbs) ! I'm not sure about the Blade 12, but the F12's we are working on come in at just over 60 kg (135 lbs).

Basically the Advance suffers from the same drawbacks as the Dragoon. It is a very heavy scaled down F18 with all rigging effort being largely the same. It also cost 5000 euro's.

The F12's we are looking at come in at 3000 Euro's or less. I suspect the Blade 12 is in the same region.

For more info :

http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/F12/F12_weight_and_cost_push_rod_setup.xls

And of course the general website :

http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/F12/

Wouter

Nothing. The sheet and sail force loads are much higher while sailing then any loads that tipping the boat over on the beach can put on the mast. So if the mast is designed to hold up under sailing then it will do so as well when tipped over.

Phill has not specified what kind of mast he will be using exactly (none of us know any specs of that Blade 12 as a matter of fact) but the F12's that use a similar unstayed mast have taken the design of class 5 landyachting. These landyachts sometimes tip over at speed (think 30-60 mph) with the crew remaining in the seat and the mast survives without any issues. I did this two weeks ago in my own class 5 landyacht and I was almost at full speed (50 mph). These masts are pretty strong and dependable.

Tipping over landyachts over on the beach when we go for a break or a drink is standard operating procedure. Tony, if you ever want to do some landyachting just contact me and I'll take you along sometime.

Wouter

Tim,

Info about costs can be found in the excel sheet I linked to earlier.

With respect to your other points.

About halve a year ago it was discussed how the F12's could be stacked on top of eachother on this public forum, mostly because the masts come of so easily. A portion of the group is working on deep V-ed hulls that will allow a metal strip to be fitted to the keel. These boats be dragged over almost any surface (boat ramp ?) and can be stacked on top of eachother without any need for a rack. Transport will be much the same. The necessity to store these boats stacked was identified early on (last year) as an another beneficial quality the F12's should have. The deep V-ed hullshape also makes the keel line strong and robust under abuse.

Windsurfer masts.
I'm actually the one with Grob who has been experimenting with windsurfer masts in this role. My first impression is that this route has a few issues that are not easy to solve. The Blade 12 will suffer more in this respect as its pod design is less suited to keeping an unstayed windsurfer rig upright. The push rod setup as shown in the pics of the alternative F12's is better suited to taking a windsurfer mast but the issue of these masts being to flexible (pumping) is not totally negated by it. A seperate metal tube reaching higher up the mast externally (as Grob uses succesfully) is needed, however if you are going to use a bottom alu section to support the windsurfer mast anyway, why not go for a full metal tube mast. The top sections are not the problem, neither in weight or cost.

Also I don't think the F12's need many different sailsizes. One of the bettter aspecst of a catamaran is that these carry large sailarea's rather well without losing control even in big wind. I think we can do well with only 1 sail size or at max 2.

Apart from the hulls, the sail and rudders all other parts are very easily home-made by an amateur. The alu tubing mast costs 260 euro's commercially (it is basically a class 5 landyachting mast) and for that price I wouldn't go through the trouble of making one myself. The rudders can be scavaged of any other catamaran design like an old hobie or prindle. These being oversized is actually an advantage. Otherwise a new set of Dotan rudders will do fine. The sail can be homemade or sources from a local supplier. It is my intent to publize a decent sail design free of charge so everybody can build it himself or have a local sailmaker make it for him. Even when these three items are bought new commercially then the total costs aren't expect to pass 3000 Euro's overall. (see the excel sheet).

I feel that Blade 12 by Phill will be very much along the same lines as the F12's in this respect.

Wouter

Another problem with the windsurfing rig is that they take to long to rig in my opinion, so I am keen to see the details of the other solutions. That said most holiday resorts leave them rigged up throughout the season so if your club has space then that would make them the quickest rigging option.

Gareth

Wouter, I thought it was for kids. What you are talking about sounds like a full on racing scalled down F16. I doubt if I will get off my F16 to race an F12. But I would throw my kids out on one and chase them around on my boat. I'm not interested in owning yet another class of racing boat, I have enough trouble getting to a few F16 regattas, but I would be interested in a kid's boat that doesn't cost what a new Wave costs, over $5,000 US, when a used H16 is $1,000. I've already got a windsurfer mast/sail sitting in my garage, unused, so I could save quite a bit there, if I could find a way to rig it to the Blade 12.

And Grob, could you please explain that Avatar picture you have on that cat? Looks like two windsurfer rigs to me, how do you keep them upright? Thanks.

Would you add permanent beach wheels that double as fenders, bumpers and back rests when lifted from the water? <img src=

alt=

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It's just brainstorming, but I'd like to know your opinion.

I'm not a big fan of homebuilding (no quality control, build consistency, standardization, parts, etc), and if only 1 of them sinks it will be very bad for the reputation of cats.

Personally I wouldn't even have the space to build one, remember that (unfortunately) houses in Europa are considerably smaller than in the US or AUS.

Maybe it would be better to let a commercial builder build a batch of a few dozen at a time to keep prices down?