Okay, I think that brings up the most fundamental point about attendance at regattas. Why, specifically, are you (or more generally, boats not at the pointy end of the standings) made to feel 'unwelcome, not worthy, etc.'?
The quotes above were extracted from another thread and I felt this subject needed its own post.
Jack, please provide more detail into how folks are made to feel unwelcome, I'm assuming this applies more to the open fleet rather than the others.
Just a thought, to a newbie coming into the sport, sitting around the campfire trying to get a word in edgwise when we've all been in the sport forEVER by their perspective, can be a bit daunting.
But I've Never seen anyone treated badly at a regatta EVER based on the boat they sail. Only thing is groupings of boats, and that depends on the RC and how they think someone fits in to the pattern of Portsmouth ratings.
CARY
SEACATS
ACAT BOYER MARK IV
Okay, I think that brings up the most fundamental point about attendance at regattas. Why, specifically, are you (or more generally, boats not at the pointy end of the standings) made to feel 'unwelcome, not worthy, etc.'?
The quotes above were extracted from another thread and I felt this subject needed its own post.
Jack, please provide more detail into how folks are made to feel unwelcome, I'm assuming this applies more to the open fleet rather than the others.
There has been a couple of recent regattas that tout themselves as catering to one or two classes. Which is fine if that is what they want...but when pressed, they say they're open to other classes if they'll show up in force. It's an interesting trend and I can see how that makes some feel unwelcome.
But I've Never seen anyone treated badly at a regatta EVER based on the boat they sail. Only thing is groupings of boats, and that depends on the RC and how they think someone fits in to the pattern of Portsmouth ratings.
CARY
SEACATS
ACAT BOYER MARK IV
Cary, whenever you're around a campfire, it's hard for anyone to get a word in edgwise, upwise, or sideways. <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />
When I showed up to my 1st regatta with my beat up 1976 5.2, there were others just like me. Today, there are alot of
pretty
boats, and I can see how they may not feel welcome, or maybe somewhat intimidated. But...I dont think its the sailors with the pretty boats, I think its the regatta itself.
There is not really a B or C fleet anymore perse like there used to be.....Shame on us!
My concern is there are situations where people are invited then once there made to feel unwelcome. Since Jack brought it up I'd like to get his take.
As for regattas catering to specific fleets or brand of boat as long as you know ahead of time that it is that type of regatta I don't see an issue. It's not like there is a shortage of regattas to attend.
Maybe the term unwelcome is a little strong, outsider may be a better term. I've felt it and can understand what I think he is saying. I did see a change in attitude in the SE last season. I did feel more welcome and more a part of the
in
crowd. I race open or with the F18s and really could care less about portsmouth. I had some great times last year and when money becomes available I will be back. For me its about going out of my way to engage the other sailors. There are some definate clicks, and attitude/arrogance that I attempt to avoid. I find most of the racers to be very easy to approach and enjoyable. You have to keep coming back to really begin to feel welcome!
You are right Dave. Years ago there used to be
B
and
C
fleets and were quite fun to sail. You didn't worry about having to know the rules book. Now in single fleet open regattas if you are in the mix with the hot shots they'll trounce you with the rule book, not to mention on the water. My wife is not as agressive as some of the sailor women out there and is/was very intimidated by the guys. She hasn't done a race in 10 years, and if momma ain't happy...
So we just sail.
Clayton
S27 Toute de Suite
Nacra 5.2
Dave, you see the numbers are getting we don't have the critical mass to support B and C fleets anymore. If the numbers were there you know the regatta organizers would be happy to create B and C fleets.
Dave you quit coming because your boat aint pretty enough?
It's just not isolated to the campfile... the beach the parking lot the restroom... the list goes on and on.
Damn, has does he know I dont show up?
Dave, I think there is a market to tap into, we just need to be more aggressive to go get them. Then make it interesting for them. I would love to see the guys that have the cool boats and have been around doing a rigging or sail trim clinic at EVERY REGATTA. Make it basic, engage the newbies, and I think we could get the C fleeters out.
Catapalooza was a great idea, now we need to expand on it.
BTW, the new guys arent hanging out on this site either, they are watching baseball with a mothballed boat in the back yard. We have to go find them again
Actually, many of the new guys are actually lurking here. You're right, we really need to get started on the 2nd edition of Catapalooza...let's start some planning / discussion this weekend at BWYD.
Excatly and here's one way how
WE
do it: http:/
Every single one of us make it happen and are at fault for not getting it done! The days of us being able to show up at a regatta expecting numbers to magically appear are over, long over. Picking up the phone is incredibly effective. The larger the regatta the more diverse group becomes and the clickishness fades into the background noise.
As the author of the post on the SA forum says, pick up the phone emails simply don't cut it.
Awesome! Let's get this going...again!
As I understand it, Trey made his own little catapalooza down in Charleston this past weekend 😛
Even way back at my first ever Cat regatta, I've never felt Unwelcome. I think you guys are the most open to all sailors I've ever been around, which is why I keep coming back. Back in my Mono days, everything was Club-centric and fleet centric, and if you weren't from
Their Club
or if you weren't sailing
Their boat
they wouldn't talk to you.
I've NEVER had that experience with you Cat sailors. The
Senior
People are usually the first to jump up and help out the new guy, at least that was my introduction to cat racing when I showed up with a beat down old Hobie 18, no comptip, no beach wheels or toy box, just all the -stuff- tied to the tramp, over in Ft. Pierce in about 1998? The Halloween regatta I think? Rick was there with his Taipan 5.9 with Hooter! I was drooling over it! Brian Karr was there and so was my son, Tommy, age 6 I think. What a mess we were! No idea what the -Hell- we were doing!
So many people dropped what they were doing to help me get the mast up, boat off the trailer, show me around, it was fantastic.
I want to take this opportunity to thank you all, as I was too overwhelmed back then, but without all that help, I would never have made it, or come back.
Thanks for being so supportive and inclusive all you guys/gals, you know who you are. I can't remember everyone, as you were all new to me then.
But to this day, I still have more
fun
from the social aspect than the racing, it's so great just to get to talk with kindred spirits over a few cold ones! The saiing is really only second most fun for me. Sometimes so frustrating, but you senior guys have taught me so much, for free! (well, maybe for a beer or two!)
Thanks!
The quotes above were extracted from another thread and I felt this subject needed its own post.
Jack, please provide more detail into how folks are made to feel unwelcome, I'm assuming this applies more to the open fleet rather than the others.
First let me point out that I have demonstrated that folks with my point of view can in fact penetrate the
pointy end
with our inferior platforms.
Secondly, I haven't been treated poorly at any events...more with indifference I would say. Even that doesn't bother me. I'm able to deal with that.
I'm not even complaining, just observing.
It totally baffles me that all these old boats that have to be languishing somewhere, many in excellent condition, do not seem to have owners, new or old, who want to bring them to regattas. My take is that they (owners) feel out of place with the focus on several
modern
classes who can muster a quorum.
In theory, an open class should resolve this, and in fact it often does at some events. However, it is a known quotient that no one really likes handicap races, per se.
I don't know why the F18 and to a lesser degree the F16 class were able to break through the crap into viability and the F20 did not.
I can only go back through the archives for some clues.
I think my
not worthy
feeling comes from a perceived observation that
if it ain't N20, then it don't count and BTW, stay out of our business
.
Their day is looming and they are naturally looking for solutions. Top dogs eventually end up on the porch. It is the way of the world.
Why not make a place for old dogs to run in a pack when the time comes? ...and that day ALWAYS does come.
That's my thought without contention implied. Thanks for asking. <img src="<>/crazy.gif" alt="crazy" title="crazy" height="15" width="15" />
I call total B.S. on the premise of this thread.
Cat sailors are the most open group of sailors I've ever been involved with. Anyone going to their first few events of a new undertaking/sport is going to feel like an outsider. That feeling goes away faster the more involved they get. I do a few different sports, I definitely feel like an outsider at kiteboarding because I'm just learning the ropes. I felt like an outsider at competitive shooting until I started to get more involved. I felt like an outsider at car racing when I tried that. The list goes on.
Jack ,
How many people at vintage car events are as open and helpful as catsailors at a regatta. For that matter how would you feel if I wanted to start dictating your rules at vintage events when I don't participate or own a vintage race car( back to the other N-20 thread, you seem to have taken offense to).
Just something to think, lotsa shoes ,try 'em all on.
Todd
Todd... you are missing the point by over interpreting the word
unwelcome
The facts are..some of the existing fleets of catamarans are getting old and their OD class are in trouble.
Hobie 18... no longer made in the USA. 0 boats at north east championships... aka Madcatter
Hobie 17 .... no longer made ... 0 boats at north east championships.
Nacra 20.... existing fleet is getting older and few new boats are being added to the racing fleet.
OD Fleets that have died in the last several years are
Nacra 6.0's, 5.8's and 5.5 uni's... Prindles and Mysteres.
What do ALL OF THESE owners have in common...
My answer... They own good old boats and are not coming to regattas! AND ... they are probably not going to buy into a different class of boat when their old one is perfectly fine.
If you ask the question... What the hell is missing... I think you get much further.. then asking what is
unwelcome
about our regattas.
How many people at vintage car events are as open and helpful as catsailors at a regatta. For that matter how would you feel if I wanted to start dictating your rules at vintage events when I don't participate or own a vintage race car( back to the other N-20 thread, you seem to have taken offense to).
Just something to think, lotsa shoes ,try 'em all on.
Todd
You make good points however, that really isn't what we are discussing hereTodd.
You have always been outgoing and friendly in person. However, you seem to have an adgenda that opposes courteous dialoge here.
I have no interest in your situation other than casul interest.
However, this thread isn't BS to a lot of folks. <img src="<>/confused.gif" alt="confused" title="confused" height="15" width="15" />
You must have landed on your head.
I think intimidating may apply better in some cases. As our local fleets dwindled, we're left with a large majority of
serious
sailors; national champions, tybee sailors, and sailors with fast new(er) boats. The last Catapalooza - while not the highly organized and polished event it could (but will eventually) be - opened my eyes a little to those sailors that are around us. They're out there. There is just some trepidation about showing up with a rusty-dusty and some inexperience at our regattas. The truth is, none of us really feel any disregard for these sailors and I promise you we will be most helpful if asked...but we need events like Catapalooza to break down some of those barriers and rebuild the critical mass of newbie sailors to make the events seem openly welcoming to other newbies.
****.People need to stick around to get comfortable.If they are old guard with a dead class and don't want to switch boats then portsmouth is there for them. What kind of coddling do you propose to make them feel welcome? Where did you feel unwelcome?
Todd
Just a thought here. Events like Catapalooza are great. We sailed with some newsailors out to the island, wind picked up a bit and people teamed up on 20's and f-18's. I think that's awesome, however I think we should be careful. If our intention is to bring out
ol rusty
and get them sailing at our events again we should make a conserted effort to value the boat they brought. The temptation is to try to grow
our
fleet by introducing people to
our boat
. More boats in OD is a good thing but there's nothing wrong with runnin' what you brung.
ol rusty
and get them sailing at our events again we should make a conserted effort to value the boat they brought. The temptation is to try to grow
our
fleet by introducing people to
our boat
. More boats in OD is a good thing but there's nothing wrong with runnin' what you brung.
I think the comittment of the new folks needs to be strong enough to bring back B fleet, but with people who show up every now and then that's hard to do. I got my start ,and still sail with a club that let's ANYTHING sail, we have everything from prams to proas and snarks to Nacra 20s. It's all about a good time, hell I'm the vice commodore.It can be a little to relaxed for some hardcore racers, but it really helps balance me out.Anyone who finds this of interest is more than welcome to come out.Get up with me and I'll give you the details.
Todd
How many people at vintage car events are as open and helpful as catsailors at a regatta. For that matter how would you feel if I wanted to start dictating your rules at vintage events when I don't participate or own a vintage race car( back to the other N-20 thread, you seem to have taken offense to).
Just something to think, lotsa shoes ,try 'em all on.
Todd
Todd or
Tawd
as you seem to like.
Your question is apples and oranges.
Since you asked, Vintage car races are about people having fun with whatever old POS they might have. It could be a million dollar Ferrari or an old home built one-off that never made sense, even in it's day.
We have a place for everyone to race safely if not fairly in respect to winning anything. We have so many classes (typically at least 60 per event) and we award medals three deep, that virtually everone gets several.
Nobody cares who finishes first except the guy that does.
Our events are down a little this year because of the economy. Just got back from Elkhart Lake where we had 150 this year as opposed to 170 last. Our big events get 400-500 cars. We must be doing something that people like.
Our sport could die overnight with fuel uncertainty and such. However, at the moment we must be on to something, wouldn't you say?
If someone thinks a rule could be written better or has a suggestion, I take it under consideration. That's how we present a better product. We don't stick our head in the sand....oops..sorry.
I'll bet I have more old shoes than you!
What you described sounds alike lot portsmouth to me, so there's your answer. It's pretty obvious that if anyone here tries to explain to you what they've learned from years of doing this ,you take offense and consider it looking down on you. So on that note I'll leave you to your stew.
If you don't get the Todd /Tawd thing I'll splain it to you in person.
Okay, what is missing? And if you say embrace handicap racing I'm gonna say make it happen and until then... it's just words on a forum.
Hot, young women, fun races (chugboat races, etc), and communal beer buckets.
Oh yeah, and media.
Hot, young women, fun races (chugboat races, etc), and communal beer buckets.
Bingo!
The Nacra way of life!
ol rusty
and get them sailing at our events again we should make a conserted effort to value the boat they brought. The temptation is to try to grow
our
fleet by introducing people to
our boat
. More boats in OD is a good thing but there's nothing wrong with runnin' what you brung.
I didn't see it like that - the kids of the parents who were there want to ride on the big boats to see what it was like. It was their suggestion. However, I do agree that we didn't put enough emphasis on helping them with their own boats - capsize and recovery should be a main event. Trey is the professor in this area.