Unwelcome at regattas

Am I an honorary 1/2 Seacat. Which am I Sea or Cat or maybe aCa?

Thanks Pal!

I even added a little happy face for ya.

why do I always get thrown under the bus? I miss 1 year of sailing and this is the crap I get.
Im taking it out on yous guys this weekend, watch out!

It's because you went A cat Dave! We all know they don't want anyone else at their regattas!

Hey, I'm joking here, I totally get it and even support the idea of A cat only regattas. It's their game, if they only want A cats, no biggie. I know some guys get their knickers in a wad over it but I don't mind and I don't feel -left out- because if I really wanted in, I'd buy an A cat. I support these guys all getting together to talk about...A cats. I get it. It's a development type class and they want to see what's new, who's done what, how does that work, etc.

AND, having stumbled upon an A cat only regatta here and there, they have always been very welcoming to me and taken time to show me all the neet new stuff they are doing. I think it's great really.

And I understand Hobie Cat wanting to run Hobie Only regattas, again, that does not piss me off at all.

I get it.

Join the HCA and buy a Hobie and you too can play. I wish people would not get so

Offended

by such regattas. If you want your own regatta, like Ding has been saying, Put up or shut up.

The A cat guys have done plenty of -Put up- and I applaude them for it.

I may get an A cat someday, please don't hate me for it...

In the mean time, I'm happy to go to -ANY- regatta, no matter who is puting it on. If I were to have an F16 only regatta here in my back yard, would you hate me for that?

What if I don't have room in my backyard but for about 10 boats? But, not wanting to be a Dick, I open it up to everything, and 30 boats show up, and 20 of them are pissed they've got no room to set up?? So am I a snob for not allowing all the other boats?

I don't know Dave. I heard somebody down the street from the club was thinking about watering their lawn. I hope the sprinkler doesn't keep you away.

Sorry. Just bustn' yur chops.

Hate ? No. But it would go against the basic line of thinking that is at the core of F16 sailing.

Of course an exception is made for a national or world championship.

Other then that we are open class boats and aim to increase enjoyment by following the addagio

more on the line is better

.

Wouter

we are --open class boats-- and aim to increase enjoyment by following the addagio

more on the line is better

.

WTF?

Speak for yourself Wout. I'll start with the Open Class when there are not enough F16's to make a fleet, 10 being my personal cut off.

And I like to start with the F18's or A cats if there are only a few of each of us, as we are pretty close to them usually, but if they are having their own

thing" going on, I won't be upset if they only want F18's or only A cats on their start line. No big whoop.

More is better of course, but I prefer enough of each (10 or more) to have our own starts. I'm sure they feel the same way.

Because it makes us laugh... duh dude.

So what's your recommendation for Kelly Park starts?

I actually speak for the basic premise on which the F16 class was formed. It is the same one that sees 2-up and 1-up F16 crews competiting directly with eachother without a

cut-off

as you put it.

Of course, the RC of a given regatta can decide to do what ever they want (kiddies course anyone ?) but the F16 class will never alter the premise on which it was founded. And that is

inclusiveness

, not

divisiveness

.

I'm not saying anything about

being upset

when the other classes feel that they need to protect their 10 boat start from the F16's. Some rather be a big fish in a small pond.

Wouter

Does anyone think that the thousand or so N00bs reading this or any other thread on Rick and Mary's site where we're whining about rules or complaining about other classes or seemingly complicating the whole cat racing scene is going to attract new sailors? I don't.

I actually had a guy from my yacht club who used to race cats in the 80's comment about how much drama he sees online within the cat sailing community (mostly on SA). To quote him,

You guys seem like a bunch of whiny little bi***** nowadays.

And,

It doesn't seem fun anymore.

Maybe we should stop the drama if we want to attract more sailors?

J

Not much whinning at GYC. http://www.gulfportyachtclub.com/

Our only problem is attracting a H16 fleet. That and we only have two or three slips left.

In a thread titled unwelcome... It's interesting to look back at how the US classes got their start and how the sailors looked at being

welcomed

at a regatta (or not) in the begining.

(IMO Welcome is not personal... it's more about do you and your boat fit in to the racing scene)

So, when you are the new boat on the block... and want to come play... How do you get your start?

Historically, 4 current classes got their start in the USA about the same time. F18 (Tigers) F18HTs, F16s and the Nacra 17.

I think it is interesting to see how the class game plans played out with respect to open class racing and their one design programs.

The sailors formed the NAF18 organization and tried to finesse the measurement rules before getting completely aligned with the international class. Fundamentally, they figured the international appeal of the class coupled with US Hobie and Nacra dealer support would make them a sure winner and the clear dominant class. They held to the traditional approach of

start to race small one design fleets

and grow the numbers through one design racing. In fact, Hobie decided to really enforce this and Hobie Alter jr declared in a letter to the hobie classes... the Hobie racing classes would be the H16 and the Tiger in the future. They put in place their Hobie only policy for regattas they ran a year later. This divided the F18 class into Tigers and everyone else (who were obviously unwelcome). Since the idea was to quickly build a one design fleet... in a sense... if they got their one design group of three or four boats they were self contained and as true believers... they were sure to quickly grow to 10 or more boats. But, in many areas, they were pushed back into open class to race because of low critical mass. When they could not get OD race.. they were welcomed back into the open fleet.

The original class members in both the very new F16 class and the new to the USA F18HT class looked at the USA scene and saw the same problem. No critical mass of racers in most areas of the country. They also thought they were competing for slightly different niches of the US market then the F18 class. They took two different approaches.

The 18HT class thought that critical mass of racing sailors for one design racing on any spinnaker boat would be be very difficult to achieve in any geographical region. (The Nacra 20 fleet had not been able to make it happen after several years) Since they rated about the same as the Nacra 20's, the solution was to race in open class against the other small spinaker fleets and they would also organize an East coast racing schedule of one design HT events using separate existing events. They pioneered the fleet trailer idea (now used by Hobie Div 11 and the West Coast A class Sailors) They figured that the Worell and Little America's Cup initiatives would give the class lots of exposure. So, they welcomed racing in the open class fleet and then tried to add separate new events (EG, St Petersburg and Sail Newport regattas) for one design racing.

The F16 class saw the same problem of no critical mass and since they had no local builders or well funded international dealers. They adopted the grow slowly but surely through open class racing. They trusted that one up and two up sailing, even up would pay off in the long run (just like the Dart 18 class in Britan) and since they rated about the same as the F18... they saw the future as racing in open class and against the F18's even up (or handicap.. whatever). The had no pretense about getting a quick start to one design racing which would immediately divide them into one up and two up groups and were happy to be welcomed into the open class fleet.

The Nacra 17 class grew in Michigan and replaced the 5.5 uni OD fleet and drew from the N20 and F18 sailors in the region and they followed the CRAM model of one design fleet racing but also scoring against the rest of the open class fleet in the CRAM regattas. In most areas of the country, the F17 class is welcomed in open class.

The clear looser was the F18HT class. They could not maintain the energy or organization to compete locally in handcap buoy racing, the East Coast One design Fleet Trailer program and compete in the major distance races and the class cratered.

The F18 class did not take off and become the dominant two person high performance racing class in the USA as it clearly is in the EU. The Nacra 20 and the Hobie 20 maintain regional racing programs and in their core areas eclipse the F18 class. In several areas, the F18's are forced to compete in Open classes or very small one design fleets. They are strong in Canada and the West coast. Its fair to say that the international success of the F18 is very slowly working it's way through the US... eg New England seems to have flipped to the F18 in the last year or so.

The F16 class has more or less stayed with the run what you brung (one or two up)in open class and the more boats on the line the better philosophy. At the class's most successful event (re turnout) to date this year at Gulfport. They started and raced one up and two up in a fleet with F18's (although they did not report the scoring that way.)

Being welcomed at a regatta means that you and your flavor of boat fits in and you are racing against the crowd....

When you hear... Well... even though you started with me on your Prindle 18... I am only racing the other Hobie 18's...
You get the idea... you are just not welcome.
ditto when you hear... Well... the F18's started with us... but I assure you... the Nacra 20's were not racing against the F18's.

If you hear this conversation around the beer keg... somebody is sure to feel not welcome... (even if you keep their beer cold and topped off!)

You know that's a real easy excuse but I think it's bull. Last time he sailed was the eighties and doesn't sail now 30 years later because we are bunch of whiney b!tches on the internet come on man, that's not why he's staying home. As with any competive sport this is the baggage that comes with it. Anytime a group of people are passionate about something there's going to be heated exchanges of opposing ideas and complaining, it just is what it is.

Sailing is a GIGANTIC pain in the a$$ and if we didn't love it there are million things we could be doing and yes riding a couch is probably on the list. Some of us caught it bad but most don't because it's just not worth the hassle.

The eight hundred pound elephant in the room is, there are sailors focused on the competition and sailors where the competition is not all that important and these two groups of sailors have very different goals and trying to satisfy both groups can leave both unsatisfied.

You can see the evidence of this divergence with the A cat fleet and I'll be honest I don't hate what they are doing. So, is this were are heading to satisfy both sets of sailors?

This weekend, we have a couple of sailors that don't care to buoy race, but want to come out, sail, and hang out. Should we do the monohull thing and offer a cruising course? (yes).

It's an idea worth floating. I'm sure Mr. Scott will weigh in he does seem to be dialed into the other focus. He and his peeps are the A cat fleet at the other end of the spectrum.

You're right, that's not why he doesn't race cats any more, but it DOES influence his willingness to make it easy on us when we ask if we can use the club's resources and have a start at his events.

They were his words and therefore his perception not mine.

J

Thats definately a lame excuse! The chatter on the web is what keeps me interested. I learn from reading others experiences.

I love sailing my boat, I don't really love racing my boat. I typically am the only boat on the water where I sail and miss the crew that used to exist and sail with me. Racing is the only place I get to sail with others. So, to enjoy the company of other sailors a racing I must go. I realize that a certain understanding of the rules is necessary to race but I have no intention of learning every little thing, much less yelling it out on a race course. I also understand that lack of participation means no B or C fleets to compete with. I make every effort to avoid conflict on the water, giving right of way whether it is justified or not.
My answer to this question is: forget about the serious racers and make the event fun for everyone. Mix it up! Sitting and waiting for the next start is boring, what could we be doing between? Maybe hull flying distance comps, trapeze 360s, flip and right speed trails, drop apples in the water that must be picked up by the crew with their teeth. I convinced my wife to go racing based on my experiences in the early '80s, she was very disappointed. Now not only is she not interested but she resists me participating as well.
I will be cat sailing for as long as possible, racing is just not a part of the attraction and is not neccessary. Racing must be fun or recreational sailors will not spend their money and time on it, too many other options.

Windy drives the point home about how different these two groups are, and trying to satisfy both at the same time may not be a solution that is workable. Different events for the different groups on different weekends. We host two significant regattas with our local club, Hargar the Horrible and the Kelly Park River Regatta. Both regattas are very fun but fun for very different reasons. Hagar the Horrible is an event like Windy describes and KPRR is a full on race regatta. Very different vibe and mindset between the two events.

Are there two different groups of sailors that participate or is it the same gang?

Exactly What are the ACATS doing Dave?
All we are are the old guys who got tired of hauling backbreaking boats up the beach, who got tired of searching for crew, Who like to sail FAST, Don't mind welcoming a boat someone built in his garage, and still like to sail a one-design class.
Is there some perception we're doing something wrong or exclusionary?
We're more open than anyone except the F-16 fleet, only in that fact that we can't sail 2UP as an option.
I couldn't sail my 5.5 as an F-18 even though it met the measurements. You can sail a homebuilt Woody or an LR3 in A-Class.

It's rare anymore that one would feel unwelcome at a regatta.

One thing I've noticed. Our local Monohull fleet has a Leukemia Cup every year. Our participation started to dwindle in the bouy racing. So they started a long distance course on Saturday for folks that wanted to do that. Participation has soared. They had 27 boats in the distance race and only 4 in the spinnaker division of the bouy racing. Which is a complete turn around.

They do a reverse start like the mug race. So no big starting line problems.

Maybe we should try this as part of our regular regatta's? Might draw more people just to come out and cruise the course and see how they do. If you think it will take away from your bouy racing, it doesn't. The serious racers still seem to choose the bouy racing.

PS. The

distance

is pretty short. For Cat's I'd recommend under 20 miles total depending on wind and direction.

Mike Hill

There is overlap but how much I can't be sure, and I'm thinking there may not be all that much, I suspect you think differently.

Speaking for myself, I fall into the

serious racer

bucket and I'll probably pass on the flying the hull contest and such heck I can't attend the all the race focused regatta's I want to go to now so those types of events (for me) get a pass.

Ask yourself why Andrew Scott and his crew won't drive the 30 minutes (probably less) to race with the GYC folks (good friendly group too), and I'm pretty sure you won't catch the A cat crowd doing power reaches with Andrew and his peeps. I'm really thinking these two groups are really quite seperate. The common ground is the party, everyone loves a good party.

Does someone that considers themselves a serious racer trade a race regatta for a non-race regatta? Can a race and non-race event coexist at the same venue?

The SEACATS used to have 2

funsails

a year. Bothe distance

races

, but no trophies, nothing serious, just take off and sail. New Years day is still kinda that way, but just fast boats have shown up recently.

When and where do we want to start something going again?

Cary the Acat fleet has several A cat only events a year. That's all I'm saying I wasn't taking a shot just making an observation. It appears to be working for the fleet too.

Please explain: I couldn't sail my 5.5 as an F-18 even though it met the measurements

Oh Cary, for the record... an A cat is probably my next stop. Hopefully it's going to be several more years I love where I am now.

I wasn't trying to present a loaded question - I really don't know what crowds attend either regatta.

I’ve been watching this thread and have almost commented a few times but have stayed out of it. But, I feel like I need to add my 2 cents.
I would still consider myself a “new” sailor. I’ve only been sailing for about four years now, maybe a little more or less. I’ve only sailed a Hobie 16. I bought my boat from a buddy’s dad on a whim, before I had ever been on one or knew much about sailing. It is still one of the best purchases I have ever made.
I love to sail recreationally, but as of last year I’ve been bitten by the regatta bug pretty badly. I’ve attended Trey’s race in Raleigh, Sail the Bay twice, the Virginia Beach Version Race, Tommy Whiteside, Spring Fever, and the Duck Cup. With the exception of the Raleigh race they are all 3+ hours away from where I live. That being said, I will continue to attend these regattas because I am made to feel so welcome and that’s why I will continue to load my boat, fill my tank, and drive to all of those places again and again. I’ve met several of the people that are posting on this thread, and from my perspective they are all A+ dudes. Whether they have helped me rig my boat, given me a little advice, or let me drool over their immaculate high performance boats as they sit by my junker 16, they have never made me feel unwelcome. What I love so much about these regattas is that everyone is a sailor first, which boat you sail is a matter of personal preference. The last Sail the Bay was the first out of all the regattas I’ve attended that I wasn’t in dead last place. I have the sailors at these regattas to thank for that. It is their encouragement and help that motivates me to keep attending and try to improve as a racer.
That being said, I don’t know what the answer is to get more new people on boats and attend regattas. I do it just because I love it. Like someone else said on this thread, it is a lot of work to sail. I think that alone turns off a lot of people. I’ve been trying for years to convince all of my friends to buy a boat…. none have. Sailing takes a certain amount of dedication and time that some people aren’t willing to give.
But, before I make this any longer I’ll sign off by offering my opinion as “one” newish sailor out there showing up to these regattas. I have been made to feel very welcome regardless of who I am racing against (ie. Open or one design) or where it is located. After I have become a better sailor and have done this for a few more years I may have a different opinion about the whole one design or open class debate, but as for right now I am happy to go places where I feel like my 86 hobie and I fit in and where there are folks that jump at the opportunity to help out a newbie. See you guys at the Duck Cup.

Ding:
I'm not trying to be confrontational.
A-CLASS On a local level we're just finally glad to have built a class that has 5 boats showing up on the starting line again.
_____
Nacra 5.5 SL/spi to the best of my knowledge met the specs for an F-18 but would not be grandfathered into the class since it was not originally manufactured as an F-18.
________
Also if your F18 crew weight and sails don't match, ya can't race ,only that rule doesn't alway apply to everyone. . . and I'm not explaining that one, If ya don't know about it you might not have been paying attention.
I really hate that this is on topic but is several issues of this thread all at once.

James may have hit the nail on the head. If you arent into sailing, hanging out with a bunch of people who are infatuated with it might not fit your bill. Also, some new people grew up getting a

participation Trophy

....Sorry, you got to suffer a lot of defeats to start winning in sailboat racing...still doing alot of it myself.
Some people we just cant help into our sport