Unwelcome.... re Waves

Arent the waves built in the USA?
Wow they are kicking out there own kind, what the hell?

I haven't seen the editorial yet, but I can categorically state that is not what happened. Another case of Mark stirring up **** that he knows nothing about. <img src="<>/mad.gif" alt="mad" title="mad" height="15" width="15" />

The original NOR had the Waves using the IWCA rules. The IHCA had some issues with that, and offered to modify the IHCA Waves rules to allow aftermarket rudders and sails (the only real differences betweeen the rules) for this event. However, the aftermarket sails would need to

fit within the perimeter of the stock Wave sail

. In consulting with a IWCA measurer, I was not convinced that that would happen. As the PRO for the event, I didn't want people showing up with aftermarket sails and being DSQ'd because they didn't measure in. Nor did I want to deal with measuring sails.

Hobie Cat (who is still planning on providing a trailer-load of charter boats to the event) got involved and stated that no modifications (including aftermarket sails) would be allowed on the charter boats.

So . . Gordo said

Screw it! I'm tired of dealing with the rule mongering - we'll just run it with the IHCA Rules.

- which are different from the IWCA in only the two aspects described above.

Nobody

dis-invited

the Waves.

The HAVAMEGA will be the Wave North American Championship. All Wave owners / sailors are welcome. Hobie Cat is providing a lot of charter boats. You can bring your own boat, but it has to have a Hobie sail and stock rudders.

But doesnt that go against the class rules? ie IWCA?

Why have them compete if they cant use there own set of rules?

It sounds like someone would make an F16 event, and specify you can race in the event, but only TWO up, and the ONE ups wont be able to compete, ie going against class rules.

The

problem

is that there are two sets of class rules for the Wave.

Rick's Rules

- the IWCA Rules

Hobie's Rules

- the IHCA Rules

I won't get into a debate on whose rules take precedence where.

The HAVAMEGA is being run with the IHCA Rules.

Most, if not all of the

IWCA

is concentrated on the East Coast, so most, if not all, of those sailors will be chartering a boat for this event.

Hobie Cat is not allowing any changes to the charter boats, so the use of the IHCA Rules is entirely a moot point.

Hmm... You should read the published letter by Gorden Bagley... He is quite apologetic about the deal. He writes

As a final remark I will say that were it not for the intrusion of one already named individual in all this, we'd be well on our way to a lot more fun than I now anticipate, and I believe Hobie Cat would have sold quite a few Waves in the process.

Why not just run the regatta as originally published using the IWCA rules and have the charter contract state that no changes may be made to the charter boats? The stock Wave certainly measures into the IWCA rules. Those that bring their boats increase the size of the fleet. No measurement required by you as the PRO.

Everybody welcomed!

Let's move from this posturing to the concrete. If you were going to attend the Havamega on your Wave under the IWCA and now under IHCA won't, post here now.

It's time to see who is just talking smack and who's really bummed by the decision. Be counted, post now, be honest.

J

Show up at the Nacra (Performance) North Americans and se if you can race with an aftermarket sail or rudder. The I-20's can't even use a different sail for Tybee.
They are welcome but only as a one design boat. So the sailors are welcome, The boats are welcome, The changes aren't welcome.

That's true, but it's an apples and oranges comparison. You're more likely to make a better comparison using the Nacra 6.0 NE (New England) where the New England group developed a rule using spinnakers outside of the Nacra 6.0NA rules. I do believe they were allowed to participate at the Nacra NA's in their own developed configuration.

The reason the N20 comparison doesn't work is because there hasn't been an upswell of owners who created their own racing rules and developed the class on their own. These Wave guys and girls made that whole class racing thing happen - and I believe there was HCA resistance to racing waves (or at least putting tighter control on sail shapes and sizes so the class could compete on a relatively even playing field with the stock equipment) at the time which sorta led to the sailors developing their own thing.

Havamega is Hobie turf and they certainly have the right to do what they want, but I can see why a few folks are steamed at the decision. Why NOT allow Wave racing under IWCA rules?

What I dont comprehend is all this talk on this forum that sport is dying etc and that we should as much as possible to bring more boats on the line, why limit yourselves?

I say the more the merrier. Its a HOBIE wave for crying out loud. Its saying NO to your own kind.

IMO very lame and not good for growing the sport.

Right. Which is exactly why I want to get a count of who is not going to attend because of the change. Let's not speculate. Let's see some hard numbers. Who'd we loose? Anyone?

J

Its simpler then that.

You invite the IWCA sailors to compete. Months go by... You change your mind and then say NO you are not welcome. Then it seems that you throw the regatta organizer under the bus as if it is his fault.

But... I am sure the 5 sailors (total) who raced a Wave last year in a single NAHCA regatta were consulted, 3 of them are class members so you have their contact info... and you are speaking for them. Right? The core of the NAHCA Wave Class are coming to the NA's... right J?

You would be better off just apologizing to the sailors, the regatta chair and the class pres who promoted the idea and saying you screwed up in the beginning. Stand there and say... We, the controlling power behind the class figureheads believe it's better to stand on principle of SMOD for the future... then grow the regatta and support sailors in the present.

Mark, you have a wonderful ability to twist facts to stir up ****. I'm seriously tempted to put you on my

ignore

list - an ingnominy you would share only with Wouter.

Who is the

you

in your statement, Mark? Me? The IHCA? Hobie Cat? Gordo? I didn't throw Gordo under the bus - if you read his e-mail, you'd know who he blamed it on.

Nobody ever said that the Wave sailors were not welcome at the HAVAMEGA. They are most certainly welcome - in fact, the Waves will be the only class with charter boats available at the event.

I repeat Jeremy's challenge - who was planning to go to the HAVAMEGA and will not now because of the rules change?

When I post, I speak for no one but myself as owner/ president of Surf City Catamarans inc. As supporting dealer at this event, I would like to simply know if this decision is going to result in fewer sailors in attendance; or if it's just another episode of Days of our Lives, brought to you by people that like to make-believe conflict.

Gordo's a good friend and does more for the sport than pretty much anyone here. He's going to read this and just be bummed that this discussion about his regatta is becoming a pissing match. There are a lot of phone calls and personal emails when a decision like this has to be made, and most of the time people that know about 1/4 of the story are the ones to post publicly.

I want some hard data to support my ideas on where I stand on the topic of this thread. My business spends a considerable chunk of change at the two largest catamaran manufacturers in the U.S., a big one in Europe, and a small one in AUS. Needless to say, I can call the owners or Presidents of these companies and voice my opinion from a businessperson's point of view, and feel they will take my ideas into consideration when making decisions. I want the facts to support what I say when I call, not some hyperbole.

J

OK, let's stop dancing around the real issue here and discuss that instead. As I understand it, the Charter Waves will have Stock rudders and Stock sails. Fair enough. But the Other Waves might have

Special Sails

and

Special Rudders

.

OK, why not have 2 divisions then? Stock and Non-Stock? 3 more trophy's to hand out, that's all it would take, everybody's happy, you could even turn it into a

A Fleet, B Fleet

type thing.

Hey, some people just want to buy a Wave and go racing and -not- have to buy a custom sail and custom rudders too, think of the added expense.

You guys in the Non-Stock division can spend thousands on custom square tops, carbon rudders, etc. if you want to, but don't make it so that a guy on a stock boat won't be competitive.

And obviously, if you are going to allow custom sails, you have to Measure them. Somebody needs to step up and do it, that's all.

Matt... YOU seemed to blame Gordon Bagley for the final decision with this statement.

So . . Gordo said

Screw it! I'm tired of dealing with the rule mongering - we'll just run it with the IHCA Rules.

You are right... I was not in the loop... you were... You said Gordo did it. This surprised me since that's not consistent with his published letter.

If you have an electronic copy of his letter... please post it..

His letter to Rick White published in Catsailor paraphrasing says... Dan Mangus, Hobie marketing director did it and I am sending a message by changing the NOR as they insist. So he throws Dan Mangus under the bus.

J
The last line of the editorial.. Says

Most of the IWCA members have written me and opted to NOT attend ....

Since Rick is the IWCA class president he might know and I will wait for his comment.

Now were getting to my point. I want to know how many. I want names.

J

Any chance someone could add a link to Rick's editorial?

Gordo is the event chairman. He is ultimately responsible for the decisions made regarding the event. I will not speak for him - the

letter

was the e-mail published by Rick in Catsailor. That is Gordo's statement and apology to the president of the IWCA regarding his decision.

If I understand the concept of the

Wave Class

rules correctly the custom sails are based/sized on

crew wieght

. (isn't the F18 class the same way). I'm not sure why there are different rudder blades that are

Wave Class Legal

.

Let's review some

History

...

When the Hobie Wave was introduced (10 years ago???) the HCA-NA did not allow or include the

Waves

in

Hobie Racing

... so the Wave Owners formed their own Class Association and developed their own rules. And their rules seem to be working for them.

So now the HCA-NA wants to welcome them (the Waves) into the HCA-NA after ten years of ignoring the Waves... but on only the IHCA terms???????

I hate hypocrisy .... and I can not post here in

proper company

my response ..... but it involves an Internationally reconized hand-gesture using the middle finger w/ a two word verbal utterence. I'm personally getting REALLY tired of the IHCA sticking their noses in when it suits them w/ their version of

One-Design

philosophy ... which (IMHO) IS NOT

One-Design

... how do you explain sails that vary by 4-6

in both boltrope and chord lengths, but they all had a

Hobie sailmakers patch

on them and were thereby class legal ... or

OD

boats that varied in wieght by 10-15%!!!!

AND FYI: Last weekend @ RHYC a

US Sailing Instructors

course was held ... there were individuals from five different Sailing Schools/Programs that were using a beach cat in their programs .... do you care to hazard a quess as too which

beach cat

they are using ???? It ain't no H16!!!!!

We need to make these

Wave

sailors welcome .... part of the

Hobie Family

and the larger Multhull community. Like it or not the Hobie Wave is the

de-facto

current entry level boat for a large percentage of

new" multihull sailors.

Ignore them at HCA-NA's peril ....

Harry Murphey

You're history is a little off, Harry.

The Wave was introduced in 1995. The IHCA has had class rules for the Wave at least since 2001 (the oldest version of the IHCA Class Rules I have on my computer).

This issue didn't just surface today when the Catsailor came in the mail.

And to be fair to the IHCA, they offered to waive the rules regarding non-stock rudders and sails

if the sails fit within the perimeter of the stock Hobie sail

, using the measurement procedure outlined in the IHCA class rules (5 random stock sails used to determine min / max dimensions).

The rudders are kind of a moot point, since only rudders made for the EZ-Loc rudder system (stock in the past couple of years) work with the EZ-Loc system.

Note that RRS 87 requires the permission of the Class Association (IHCA) to change class rules.

This is the very thing that pisses me off about todays boat manufacturers. They have totaly forgoten about the customer, the one who pays the bill. How can you call anything one design where the measurement is taken by using the average of 5 different sails? Where is the quality of not only the tolerance but the material itself? If I owned a new spinaker and was doing a race up the coast that I was spending thousands of dollars to do not to mention the time off of work and my spinaker came apart, I would go balistic. When the Hobie Tiger went up to 19k because of the exchange rate, why did the infusion go up as well even though it is built here in the states? Why does a Nacra 20 mast cost 11k when a far better spar can be made for under 5? Actually I know the answer to that one. So they can change to mast to aluminum and claim it is to keep cost down. This is why I would never buy a new boat from Nacra or Hobie. They play these little games at our expense and just what do we get in return. I disagree with the parts arguement. I have found that aside from the hulls themselves that almost all of the parts are from a subvendor. But if you buy it directly from the sub you are no longer class legal even though they make the same part for the manufacturer. And as for regatta support I don't see that either. Hobie has disowned our little fleet 8 just because we won't exlude non hobie boats. I guess they would rather watch the sport die due to lack of participation then allow their boats to compete against a different brand. Just seems as much as we spend on our boats we should be treated a little more like the reason they are in business. Enough with my rant, I am sure I will eat crow over it later.

Matt,

So the Hobie Wave was introduced in 1995 .... that means 14years (four additional years) of the NAHCA/HCA-NA not allowing

Waves

to come to a Hobie event. How does this help your argument/position???

It appears obvious to me that the IHCA rules are not working for the large majority of

Wave

competitors. Please explain to me how a 200lb competitor can compete w/ a 130lb competitor on a boat w/ minimal sailplan adjustments using the same size/cut sails. That is EXACTLY the same reason I sold my H16 and purchased a TheMightyHobie18 ... I was 225lbs at the time and generally competing on my H16 at a crew wieght of +360lbs .... in

heavy air

I could do ok ... in light air I was smoked ... can we say DFL!!!!!

So I can understand and agree w/ the IWCA's rule of varying the allowed sail area by crew wieght ... it is the same idea as the F18 class uses currently.

I do not agree w/ stupidity for stupids sake ... the boatowners should be able to determine their class rules that they wish too race under ... not some distant group that is in the pocket of the manufacture who wishes to ring out and controll every last penny spent by boatowners on their boat.

And there is nothing saying that the Hobie Factory can not make different size sails for different

Wave

crew wieghts.... except the

Hobie Factory

who (most likely)doesn't want to inventory several different sized sails for the Wave.

This is very similiar position to that of the Hobie Factory on another issue, as they will not produce and inventory a medium blue tramp for the TheMightyHobie18 which is the most popular color tramp ever on a TheMightyHobie18. (but they do produce medium blue tramps for other boats so they have the material availible) I was personally told by Matt Miller that he needed to reduce inventory costs and it doesn't matter what I, the customer wants. For twenty-five years I've worked hard to keep my boat looking good and now because of IHCA rules I'm being forced to purchase and install a tramp to remain

Class Legal

which color I absolutely ABHORE, does not match my Magnum wing covers and makes my boat look like a mis-matched

POS

in my opinion. And

Hobie

no longer makes Magnum Wing covers in ANY color at all ... so what are my options I ask????

So I have plenty of evidence that IHCA and the

Hobie Factory

will not and do not listen to the boatowners and customers .... they just do what they want to do ... and we have to live w/ it ... this is just driving more and more people away from the HCA-NA and

Hobiedom

who take their time, $$$$'s and interest and do something else. So we need to be listening to the boatowners since that is where the ideas and $$$$'s will come from, not the IHCA.

So keep on waving that

Hobie One-Design

flag per IHCA rules and see where it gets the HCA-NA ....

Harry Murphey

Neither Colin's nor Harry's rants are completely accurate.

At no time were Waves ever told they couldn't race at Hobie points regattas. The fact that few boats ever show up is not evidence that they are not welcome.

In fact, there was a Wave North Americans held in conjunction with the first Hobie Mega regatta in 2002.

The IHCA Rules Committee is not

in the pocket

of the manufacturers. Influenced, yes. The composition is:

Jeff Alter (Alter Family representative, Chairman)
Doug Skidmore (Hobie US)
Jean-François Collet / Michel Corigliano (Hobie Europe)
Erik Olsen (member at large, Netherlands)
Mal Gray (member at large, Australia)

No link. You would have to subscribe to Catamaran Sailor Magazine and get it in your mailbox. Go to

Subscribe

at the top of this page.

There is no varying of sail area. The sail area is strictly measured and is the same for stock and non-stock sails. The only difference is that the sails can be cut full, medium or flat, according to the crew weight or normal sailing conditions.

At the Wave Midwest Championship Regatta in Indianapolis on May 16 & 17, we had a Gold fleet for the serious (non-stock) racers and a Silver fleet for us casual racers with stock boats. I won the Silver fleet and came home with a beautiful trophy.

We had 7 boats in the Gold fleet, from Indiana, Ohio and South Carolina; and two boats in the Silver fleet from central Indiana. I think this was a very fair way to do it, and it illustrates that the folks who are serious enough to travel will be the ones serious enough for custom sails. I can't afford to travel or buy custom sails, but I love my stock boat and enjoyed joining in on the regatta, win or lose. Since I have a stock sail, it wasn't measured, but I think there was some comparison of the non-stock ones to make sure they were okay.

I overheard a conversation that some of the

serious

racers who wanted to attend Havamega were planning to charter boats but bring their own sails, and that was what got nixxed, so they decided not to go.

I have some photos, but I haven't figured out how to upload them with the new forum software yet. Hopefully a full story will be coming out soon.

No dog in this fight, but. . .when I get bad service at a restaurant, I don't complain, I just don't go back. My feeling is that it's the manager's job to stay on top of this stuff.

You'll probably never know who (whom?) you lost.

J

No dog in this fight, but. . .when I get bad service at a restaurant, I don't complain, I just don't go back.

As a manager (not at a restaurant) this is my biggest challenge. Our operation is sizable enough that I don't have the luxury to oversee every transaction and business dealings. When an issue arrises I want to be proactive to correct it, but if I don't know the issue existed, it can never be fixed. I guess I prefer the approach of try to fix it once, if they still get it wrong, then never go back. My wife and I once had horrible service at a Chili's. I told the manager after our meal what a poor experience we had had. I wasn't expecting anything but the manager gave me a voucher for two entree's, free drinks, and a free dessert on our NEXT visit. I was very impressed with move. Now I have a lure to give the service one more try. We did and were so blown away by how great the service was that not only do we continue to go back, but I ended up hiring the waiter to come work for me as a cashier.

off topic - but I made the mistake of getting involved with Harry's trampoline problem on the hobie forums - I suggested
he buy the amish brand being pushed on ebay. - big mistake
not class legal - not made by hobie. funny thing is they are now being pushed in the Hobie Div 14 handbook - see page
23

http://www.div14.hobieclass.com/site/hobie/div14/downloads/2009RegattaFlyers/D14_Booklet_2009.pdf

Damned if you do - damned if you don't

I feel like Rodney King -

Can't we all just get along

!!!!

How is any of this promoting Catamaran Sailing?