Unwelcome.... re Waves

Well, hopefully it gets people thinking about issues before they become serious problems.

Sailing is a lot of fun! There must be some reason people are staying away in droves.

[quote=mbounds
Nobody

dis-invited

the Waves.

I am a member of the IWCA and even though I wasn't planning on going I still feel dis-invited.

As far as the description of how it happened, I would classify it as FUBAR. This should have been worked out, in private before the NOR went out.

I was told, at some time, that a NOR is a contract and in the

gentleman's

world of sailing, we honor our word. If that's not good enough we should always honor our contract because we might have pre-registered a lawyer with time on their hands.

I will have to remember this the next time I buy a boat.

Matt,

Some observations first ... and then some philosophy

First, So the

Waves

are welcome .... then WHY are they not showing up? You may think they know they are welcome but the facts indicate differently. Something is

Not Working

for the Wave owners.

Secondly, The IHCA commitee has six members ... three work directly for a

Hobie Factory

... the fourth (Jeff Alter) is tied directly financially to the

Hobie Factory

.... I believe (if I've done my math correctly) that is a 2/3 voting majority. And, where's the HCA-NA's

Member at Large

.... don't we rate????

It is a fact that many Hobie competitors on H16's and TheMightyHobie18's would take their new

Hobie Factory

sails and have them

Re-Cut

in the 80's and 90's. I believe Elliot-Patterson was one of the lofts doing this at the time. But since there was a

Hobie Factory

sailmakers patch (Actually

West Coast Catamaran

) the sails were considered

class legal

and everyone

winked

at these sails at the time.

Also, My experiences have been largely IDENTICAL to Mr Casey Collins observations/experiences.

Now for some Philosophy:

There has been a theory put forth about the intelligence of a group of

average Joe's

vs a panel of

experts

. It states that a group of 50

average Joe's

will arrive at a correct solution a greater percentage of times vs the panel of

experts

(by a large margin in fact)

Secondly, I believe in

self-determination

... or at least having some say/input in those that DO determine my fate. So when are the elections for the IHCA Commitee??? In fact, who picked these guys and

made them boss

??? In my opinion the IHCA commitee has made some decisions that have been proven to be extremely detramental for the overall long term health of our sport.

Matt, you are trying to defend a indefencable position my friend, analysis of longterm trends like HCA-NA membership and regatta attendence will show you this. The

same ol', same ol'

that the IHCA is promoting is not working. And sticking

one's head into the sand

is not going to work .... The IHCA must change (and soon) or the HCA-NA will soon perish.

I'll close w/ this point .... it is BECAUSE we care (alot) that people like Mr Casey Collins and myself

stick our necks out

and voice our opinions and try to instigate

change

.....

Harry Murphey

I have already been called an “butt” this week for butting in, so anything worse will be [cxxxxxd].

I AM however, a member of HCA-NA though.

Firstly, several folks have indicated that these discussions should be kept private so as not to scare away new folks, etc. I disagree; this is a forum and nothing reasonable should be off limits. It is certainly better to air beliefs, opinions, wisdoms, experiences, and such openly than to hold back because of feelings and sensitivities. It makes us all the better for it.

It is probably not a good idea to call each other names though.

Secondly, I know enough about Matt Bounds to recognize he is very knowledgeable and professional in all aspects of his devotion to cat sailing. Matt is “by the book”, as he should be, when he is PRO. His opinion in this is strictly following procedures and regulations as proscribed by proper authority.
His facts about the Wave history are probably accurate.

However, I believe Rick and Mary were given de facto authority to organize the Waves when HCA or Hobie didn’t feel there was an interest in racing Waves. It really doesn’t matter anyway and I’m sure IWCA will remain vibrant and healthy regardless.

Next, it is also true that I think the way HCA, and probably more accurately Hobie Corporate, have administered the ONE DESIGN aspect that Hobie Alter so passionately embraced, has been less than stellar. The boats do vary enough that you have to somehow get the right combination of sails and bits to optimize your equipment. Sails are a big variable, and you really don’t have much say in what you get. With no published plan there is no way to really even tell, just the Hobie Cat patch.

Now, I think there is an ethical if not procedural question about changing the NOR after it has been posted. In particular, when such a long period has transpired, it is hard to justify a major change in the policy. Folks have made plans and a dealer has made a substantial financial and logistic commitment. I would say that the change in policy is damaging and disheartening to all concerned. I see no winners in this scenario.

Though not a Wave sailor, I could be. I think all of us on this forum have become aware and appreciative of the Wave happenings and they deserve more respect, especially from their manufacturer.

To all:

NORs can and do change. It is far enough in advance of the event, that it is fair.

Now, if you were planning to come, are you really going to stay home just because of your sails? What does that say about YOU?

All this discussion about sail cutting is a joke. When I look at the results of major events with 100% supplied boats vs. BYOB, a funny thing happens... all the really good sailors find a way to win under both formats.

If you're really interested in growing the sport, show up and race.

Mike

Any chance of getting Hobie to charter sails to folks that don't have a stock Hobie sail but were planning to attend? Might not be ideal for all, but maybe some would consider that a reasonable compromise.

sm

I don't know Mary. I'm afraid you'd do a flyby and dump cochi frogs on my house if you got my address.

Come on H1616, pay up the $20 and get the mag like the rest of us do. You can use your real name, and they will not make the connection.

Still waiting for the reply from Jeremy's request for names of noshows, due to the NOR change. Good example of

put up or shut up

.

Caleb Tarleton
two H-17's
plus six Waves and six H-16's at Sail Sand Point, all Class Legal

As I'm probably the only cat sailor in West Maui it wouldn't take Mary too long to make the connection.

I've still got the $500 waiting for Nothing But Nets.

Can you say public relations disaster ??

I'm reminded of the worst advertising slogan of all time,

Nothing Sux like an Electrolux

That having been said, Hobie Cat Company could have required that charter boats be used with all the factory supplied equipment and been well within their rights as the manufacturer/supplier.
Who could you rent a car from that would let you swap in your own engine for the weekend?
( Kind of apples and oranges I know, but hopefully you catch my drift)

If which sail someone used was that big an issue to someone, they could bring their own boat rather than take advantage of the convenience of a charter boat.

IHCA could have given a one time pass on using the IWCA rules.
If necessary, the event organizer could have scored the waves in two fleets if the non factory sails were that big of an issue.

To make the change after the NOR had been published and the waves invited to participate with the understanding that IWCA rules would be used is kind of like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube.

Obviously hard feelings and negative publicity are the net result.

Cut me I bleed Hobie, and it hurts me to see the company alienate a whole group of sailors.

The company has made it clear by their actions that the are much more focused on the recreational market i.e. sales of yaks and rotomolded boat sales to rental outfits and resorts.

I for one think the company and the HCA-NA are too intimate.

HCA-NA needs to stand on its own two feet and run its own business.
If necessary, we need to buy our soul back from the company store.

The Hobie Cat Company makes decisions based on what is in their best interest as a business.
Hobie Class Association of North America needs to do the same.

Stephen C

Quite the ego you've got.
I'm reasonably sure no one gives a rat's as$ who you are.

I have purely a sailing question. Consider this quote:

Are the stock sails to be supplied by Hobie for the charter boats so different or so terrible that any sailors,

serious

or not, would NOT attend on the basis of the sails alone? Do they really think the outcome will be so terribly different? A bad craftsman blames his tools. A good sailor always does well, even on a scrappy boat (identical boats!).

Who would carry such a chip on their shoulder that they would not sail, given the chance? These folks must have a chip on BOTH shoulders! The fabled non-attendance must be based in simple anger and has nothing to do with the fun of sailing, the fun of racing, or fun in life.

Back down, go sailing, and race by your IWCA rules when it's your regatta.

Have fun! <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

Time to watch Ridgemont High again. Spicoli says,

All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.

Man Law

Gordon,

The Division 14 booklet welcomes all advertisers (want to buy a Trane A/C unit?), we don't

push

product. Catsailor, our largest advertiser this year, can sell whatever they want, it's a FREE country.

Did you notice Bobby's ad mentioned carbon and hybrid arribasticks? not class legal!!! <img src="<>/blush.gif" alt="blush" title="blush" height="15" width="15" />
Did you notice the link in the Division 14 website to the dreaded (JUST KIDDING!) Division 6! <img src="<>/blush.gif" alt="blush" title="blush" height="15" width="15" />
It's all there for a purpose...to promote cat sailing.

Stephen,

I like what you said, and I agree. On the other hand, why not show up at the NAC, sail a chartered, brand spanking new boat, with a brand spanking new sail? Seems like a pretty level playing field to me, maybe even with a percieved advantage.

As someone that is responsible for cooking over 7,000 hot dogs at regattas, I have some thoughts.
All the players are trying to do the right things.
The trouble with actually stepping up and doing anything means mistakes will happen and not everyone will be happy.
I have had to make tough decisions while being involved with big events. It never makes everyone happy.
THE GOOD NEWS.
Gordo, Matt and company are working real hard to promote a big event.
Rick and Mary are, and have always, done a huge amount for the sport. Waves are now in the conversation.
I like what I'm hearing from Jake and company with the Catapalooza with newbies and entry level boats.
I've been hearing about the demise of HCA for a very long time. I know most of the people(VOLUNTEERS) involved and can tell you they are good people trying to do good things.

There is always next year to try and get it all right and have no one make any mistakes while we all get along and agree on everything.

Sarah and I working on a finish at Madcatter: I think squirrels were actually blown out of trees that day.

This was exactly my question/ point in another thread as well. This type of fight hurts us all.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but how can you be dis-invited to something you weren't going to in the first place? You can't. Seriously, I'm still looking for the hard numbers. Who did we loose. I'm probably the 3rd in line as far as getting new people on the water (it's the basis of my business model) behind Shaunna and Gordo here on the West Coast. As soon as a get a hard number, I'm making a call on behalf of the Wave sailors. Just let me know.

We don't know if that's the case Harry. As of right now, it's all hearsay and hyperbole. That's what I'm trying to find out. Is this a made up problem or legitimate.

That is one of the most brilliant paragraphs ever written on these forums Mike. Thank you. Take note, that type of attitude will grow the sport.

Thanks Caleb. That's exactly what it is. Time to put up, no make-believe. Not a one yet.

I will personally see to it that that happens. If anyone wants to set something up and work out the details, email me: jeremy (at) surfcitycatamarans.com

Many great points David, Thank you.

I agree, someone is going to have to back down. And since Hobie is generously offering a truck load of Waves, can't the IWCA just concede this once? Just for the sake of having fun at this one event? It doesn't seem like that big of issue to me really.

If you're really into the racing and the parties and the camaraderie, then show up. If you want to start some drama for drama's sake keep posting some rhetoric about an event that you weren't going to in the first place, don't even own that class of boat, and in some cases don't even own that manufacturers boat, therefore you should have no vested interest...other than talking smack. You are hurting cat sailing.

J

Okay, this is not what was intended and its a pretty big f'ing mess right now. Just so you know: This was ALL ME. I started it, rode it out as far as I could and tossed in the towel.
Here's how it goes: I have always thought that the Wave is the answer to alot of issues coming up in the multihull world. At 43, I tend to be one of the younger sailors almost every regatta I go to. The average age of US is moving up and up, and double trapping, finding crew, long boat set up times, arms race mentality etc.....wears you down, takes the wind out of your sails (so to speak) and causes you to play golf rather than sail. Enter the Wave. Trailer to water in 10 minutes, Under 5k (whatever...) new out of the box, NO crew, big soft squishy seats, A boat old guys/women can sail for cheap and take the complications out of life. Rick White has seen this. A hell of a long time BEFORE anyone else. I have only met Rick on two occasions, but I read all this and I like what he says and does. The IWCA is the result of not getting exactly what they wanted from the HCA. Everyone knows that. I asked Merrick, as a parting favor on his last couple days as Chair, to contact Rick and tell him we want to work with them however we can. He did, and we made some headway.
After HavaMega was conceived, we decided to ask if we can jump into bed with the IWCA on it and a few other events and I got a thumbs up from someone with authority and the ability to see the big picture here. So, we promoted the HavaMega, MWE and a few other events as HCA/IWCA joint events and there has been alot of talk and good to come out of it. The funny thing is, the only ones to bitch are people that have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Pisses me off ROYAL. Anyway, I get a call, at home, late at night, from the IHCA president on some satalite phone thing and he's asking me what the heck we're doing out here with the Waves, because he's got someone in friggin' Europe or somewhere bitching to him about what we're doing here. I am like,'what is the Wave Racing scene like over there and in Aus?' and he tells me that We're IT. Okay. Now this is ridiculous, because there is NO Wave racing within the HCA to speak of and if it wasn't for Rick and Co., there would be NONE anywhere except in the BVI on race week or whatever. So I explain that I am trying to work with the existing racers, playing by their rules (to not make anyone feel unwanted or differnet) and he's good with that. I am asked to not make this a permanent thing, but a short term alliance is acceptable. Couple years down the road, we'll have to move back to the IHCA rules, but I figure, what the hell. Cross that bridge later.
So, we're back to HavaMega. We work out with HC the charters, and get ready to start REALLY pushing the deal, then I get a call about some semantics regarding the NOR. (It doesn't matter by who, so lets not get into mudslinging or any of that ****, I just want all of you to know what the real story is). They want the NOR to reflect an 'exception' to the racing rules and want me to draft a proposal the IHCA rule committee and go through a bunch of red tape (this is after I said I intend on submitting a rudder change allowing EPOs on the Wave if so desired, then started that shitstorm) and then someone came up with the idea of running two starts, stock and modified and then something else and something else. Gordo and I were on the phone, and decided that the IWCA deserved our respect and admiration, nothing less. We decided we were NOT going to write up an exception (that HC said we could do) and we were NOT going to segregate boats. Screw it. Its the friggin Wave. You can put whatever sail you want on the thing. Its a Wave. Blow a tack, miss the B mark (that old guy that kicked my butt in Florida did that!) whatever. NOT a performance boat, but fun as hell nonetheless.
So here is where we are, where we started. YES, I am trying very hard to build a Wave Class within the HCA. I was trying jumpstart it with IWCA. It doesn't look like we can work it out the way I had hoped. Gordo had nothing to do with any of this, it was all my idea. Gordo is a team player, and was very insensed about the fact this didn't go the way we hoped.
There really is nobody to blame for anything, its just the way it goes. We hope that the 15 or so Charters we have available get used up by our friends out east, we meant no harm in any of this and apologize for the way it turned out.
Matt Bounds has been very helpful in this process as well, and his thought on sail measurment etc....are accurate.
What we have done recently, is approved a Jr. racing program for kids up to 16 years old racing Waves at our Youth NACs. Now we have 2 classes (including the 16).
Also, we have a proposal for the 2010 Wave/14/17/18 NAC for Ocean Springs Yacht Club, near Biloxi we're hopeful will be approved shortly. Wave HCA-NAC in the south is the best we can do right now.
Please direct your comments, anger, whatever to me, Chris Wessels HCA Chair xanderwess@yahoo.com and leave the others out of it. I take full responsibility for this situation.

I don't see what the problem is. If you race Hobie Europeans, you have to use all Hobie supplied parts. Same if you race Nacra championships. Leave all your special bits and pieces at home and race OD.

I can’t believe the HCA is wimping out on this. When we started working on this we had the HCA, Hobie Cat Company and the IWCA all on board. We also fully expected some flack from the IHCA and were prepared to deal with it. This is so completely disappointing to see the HCA once again run into its own political wall. It’s pure cowardice not to stand up to the IHCA. There is only one set of rules being used in Wave class racing on this planet and everyone knows what rules they are.

I started reaching out to the IWCA years ago when I first started as the HCA Vice Chair and soon decided that I wasn’t doing the Wave sailors any favors by getting them involved with the IHCA. It looked like there was hope for a while but I’m back to my original thought. The IHCA is a complete mess. My advice to the IWCA is RUN DON’T WALK.

Cowardice? Intersting choice of words. Wimping out? I don't think that's the case either. All I saw going forward after the pressure started, was ways to alienate and irritate the only Wave Racers on the planet. Everyone has their opinion. I get the One design speech every 10 minutes from someone. I actually had someone say to me that I was fragmenting the 14 class by pursuing the Wave initives. Hello??
I got an email from a guy that said its not fair for someone to have aftermarket, high tech parts on his boat when his is completely stock. I got an email from a guy that said its not fair for his 250lbs self to race against a 110lb kid with the same sail, when he can have a fuller sail make to compensate for the weight difference and make the race more fair (with no weight min needed on the Wave)
So, what is the right answer? What do we do? Lots of people pissing all over this (et tu, Bobby?) But I have yet to hear anyone say anything really positive or helpful in trying to figure a way to grow our sport and make it more accomdating to our aging, recession battered masses. I am of the opinion that the poison was better than the cure in the case of HavaMega and all the BS that would ensue. Seriously, all this ****, and how many IWCA boats would really have shown up anyway? What, 50? Come on.

We agree on this Chris. I just wish you had told the IHCA to take a hike. Someone needs to.

You know, as well as I, that you can't bite the hand that feeds you.

Oh I don't know, it just may be that time.

I know you are as POed as I am and I don't mean to lay any blame at your feet. I've just seen this kind of thing happen too many times before, and I haven't even been around that long.

No good deed goes unpunished.

How much are you getting fed? Is the food worth the ensuing B.S.?
There's a line somewhere ,they'll figure out they've crossed it once it's too late.

That's the problem, we don't know. No hard numbers posted yet. Still waiting.

Thanks Chris for putting in the hard work, you're truly in the middle.

J

OK, how about everyone calm down for a minute and think about what Chris said...

I have yet to hear anyone say anything really positive or helpful in trying to figure a way to grow our sport and make it more accommodating to our aging, recession battered masses.

Here's an idea. Everyone who is SERIOUS about moving forward in a POSITIVE direction needs to drop their personal agendas and think about this.

Anyone in IWCA who was planning to come needs to contact the organizers and be recognized.

Hobie Cat can supply charter sails for the event that could be offered free of charge to the IWCA sailors.

IHCA, HCA-NA, IWCA and Catsailor and anyone else with a dog in the fight can chip in the cash to fund the charter sails as a GOOD FAITH effort.

Load up the sails with all the sponsor logos you want, who cares, if you're serious about getting more Waves racing at big events within the Hobie class, here's your opportunity on a silver platter.

Problem solved.

Mike

We have made a significant investment in our Youth Programs in the last year (much more $$ than usual) and that money comes from somewhere.........so keep that in mind when encouraging me make decisions that may affect some 13 year old somewhere who could have had a wicked good time at some NAC event, but couldn't becasue we didn't have a superior grant program at our disposal. Life is give and take. So is sailing.

If Chris would have told the IHCA to take a hike, there would be no charter boats, and I bet, based on an educated guess, there would have been 4 Waves show up. So 4 vs. 15(charter), that's what I'm thinking at this point until I hear something different.

J

Actually, there is a 3rd major difference between the 2 competing sets of class rules. IHCA has a 120 lb. minimum crew weight. IWCA has no minimum.

Interestingly, the Wave is a youth class, yet the minimum crew weight makes most youth sailors too light to race under the IHCA rules.