Unwelcome.... re Waves

My point is that, when it suited Hobie, there were many changes made to the spec of the original

One Design

Tiger. I remember hearing that ISAF were perturbed at the many changes to a

One Design

.

I too am miffed by the way things seemed to have gone down. Indeed, neither I have a horse in this race but I too think some people are really missing the plot in today's catamaran scene. Selling to resorts is great, but sticking to SMOD like a religious dogma is really no recepy for succees these days. Opening up the sail plan (within size rules) is actually a very smart move for a class like the waves. Jake is right, a 95 sq. ft. aftermarket mainsail is not going to break the bank and the racing will only become more fair with it as the competitive range will be entlarged.

I too see a clear example in the history of the Hobie Tiger. Especially when compared to another new Hobie class like the FX-one (or non-F20 optimized Hobie Fox).

And other then that; since when do we regard an ISAF seal of approval as a positive thing ?

Those guys have lost the plot almost as much as the SMOD fanatics.

Wouter

While it would be fun to argue with you Wouter (fun as in, after I take this hot poker out of my eye), that's just another tangent from this thread.

I stand by what I've already posted. Regardless of how we got here, the first goal now needs to be to have everyone show up and race, to show that they care about growing the Wave as a racing class within HCA. HCA, HCC, IWCA (and others) should work together to help make that a reality.

Everything else is political agenda, and I think we're all getting very tired of it.

Mike

So basically you are saying that everybody, incl. the IWCA, should work towards having everybody adhere to the HCA position.

As in everybody is welcomed to negociate a solution to the situation under the criterium that the end result is the position exemplified by HCA.

Why don't you just ask the IWCA and god know who else to commit suicide as well ?

Now that is a true statement. But you shouldn't confuse your own position as being the high road.

But what do I care, it is no skin of my nose.

Wouter

A question for IWCA members and Hobie Cat.
If Hobie offered 3 wave sails, Standard, Full , Flat would the Iwca racers buy them or still want aftermarket manufactures?
Could Hobie build fuller and/or flatter sails as per customer request for the wave?
How would that influence cost?
Would Hobie be willing to

Grandfather

current IWCA aftermarket sails If they measured out correctly.

Then those with aftermarket sails would be able to keep racing, Hobie would get future sales in the sails. The two classes would be closer to making peace and getting more people to sail regattas on the waves.

I'm trying to be constructive here so if you have a negative comment for me about this please do it in PM or E-mail.

Those are rather strontg statments for someone who doesn't care.

Hobie18rich: That is another question I asked (altough I referred to them as a Papa, Mama and Baby Bear sails) when I was talking to the boys on the board,but that whole dilution of class thing came up again.
It was explained to me in the beginning that getting a sail for the Wave should be like buying a running shoe. You need to be fitted, bascially. Depending on weight, sailing ability and desire, as long as they conformed to the perimeter measurements, sail cloth thickness and materials. Makes sense when someone who really believes in it explains it to you.

What we have is an event with posted rules. How we got here needs to be irrelevant, if we are to build it to a sucess. That is the high road that needs to be taken.

What happens next in terms of long-term rules, etc. should be a separate issue, but for anyone to be taken seriously, showing up would be a good first step.

As for the IWCA vs IHCA Wave rules, I have watched this for a long, long, long time (since its inception, actually). The main point put forward originally by IWCA (published in Catsailor) was that SMOD sails cost more, that's why IWCA wanted to be able to use multiple sail makers. Now, it's gone down the road of making the sail fit your personal style, which gives ammunition to the IHCA SMOD position, as this has the potential to be viewed as an arms race.

Still, none of that matters for this event. If people choose not to show up, they simply will not have much political pull in the future. When you show up with lots of boats, you'll start getting attention. Who knows, when the good Wave sailors win with factory sails, this whole debate might just go the way of the dodo...

Mike

Mike/Brucat???

Let me see if I understand your statement correctly ......

So the IWCA doesn't want to follow

SMOD

as they have found that the IWCA sailors can purchase sails cheaper from Independent Sailmakers ...... and have also discovered that customized cuts for their wieght/sailing style seems to

level

the playing field while

measuring in

in terms of square area.

Hmmmmmm ........

So I'm expected to pay extra $$$$'s for a product from a manufacture that doesn't meet my needs while there is a manufacture that will make a product thats cheaper, improves the racing, and does meets my needs ... just so I can claim

SMOD

.

I thought

SMOD

was to lead to cheaper, more cost effective racing/sailing ..... I'm really confused now .....

Harry Murphey

I am pretty sure I am one of maybe 3 Wave owners in this whole conversation.......funny don't you think?

Sounds like you want to keep it that way.

Brucat,

I think you have it all wrong, having a sail made to fit your weight opens the class up to more sailors and you get better less expensive sails. The a cats do this and it works for them. The F18 class has some of the best sails and better priced than the oem sails (not one F18 had sail issues in the Tybee like the N20 did with the oem sails.

Hobie Cat should not be involved in any of the rules and should not be involved in the racing members class. Hobie would care more about boat and part sales than the racing class. The A cats, F16, F18 are all doing well with out manufactures telling them what to do.

Since Hobie went Hobie only in division 9 most dealers have gone under and I have not seen any new Hobie's racing just A cats, F18s, F16s, N20 and some older Hobie cats and all boats are welcome. Most of us did sail Hobie's they just don't make boats that fit our needs anymore.

The one problem I have with being a Hobie class member is you really don't get to vote on upper management only your division chair and they don't put major issues to membership vote. If the IWCA sailors come to the event it won't change the IHCA minds. Going to the event with the IHCA rules would just show that the IHCA does not need to change. The IWCA should just keep doing what they are doing because it is working for them and they are building there class. If the IWCA wants to convert to the IHCA rules they should put it to a class vote. The classes should be about the sailors and having equal, fun, competitive, affordable and not a arms race. Hobie will say they have that but I think you could buy a lot of parts that did not change the performance of the boats a lot cheaper than having to buy from HC.

Someone in this thread wanted facts on what the Hobie only rule has done. The boats I have owned new 1985 H16, used 1989 TheMightyHobie18, used 1997 TheMightyHobie18, used H17, new 01 Nacra I20, new 2002 Tiger. Hobie only rule all new 05 Nacra F18, 06 Infusion, 07 Infusion, 09 Infusion. Hobie lost all my business that's around 67,000 spent on Nacra's and I am just one sailor.

Hobie stock main white list =$812

Calvert wave main list =$900
Tri-radial Pentex add $352 = $1252
Load path add $407 = $1307

No, you wouldn't be expected to pay more. Why would you buy a WAVE Main anyway... for your 18? That wouldn't make sense Harry. I think you'd be a little underpowered <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

J

In ten seconds of google searching I found a Wave main from a respectable loft for less than the Hobie stock sail.

The Calvert might be a little more, but I'm willing to bet the difference in price it's a whole lot better value than the stock sail. And it's probably made in the US instead of by slave-labor in Malaysia or wherever.

The mains that I quoted are on a website affiliated with the IWCA.

And if you want to support labor in the U.S. All Hobie rotomolded boats (sail/ kayaks) and sails (other than euro boats) are made here in the U.S. There used to be about 20 boat manufacturers here in CA, Catalina, Cal, Capitol Yachts, Hobie, Performance, etc. Now there are only about 3.

J

Hobie USA builds the sail right here in Oceanside California. Yes, Made in the USA.

I do know that a few of the

custom

sailmakers send their digital patterns to over seas lofts for production.

We purchased three new Factory Wave sails last year. They are excellent, well made, teflon bolt ropes etc. During the season our six Waves are on the water about 12 hours a day, seven days a week. Very rough use with young sailors. So far, the stock sails have lasted at least four years, with some minimum maintenance.
Caleb Tarleton
Sail Sand Point, Seattle

Thanks for the correction. I guess I should know better than to repeat hearsay.

The Calvert sails I've owned were built in the US, and of equivalent price but much better quality than class legal sails. I would be surprised if that doesn't hold true for the Wave.

What Class?

Quite honestly... hard to beat the Hobie Factory quality. I suspect you are referring to another manufacturer.

The latter part of this thread appears to be a debate about HCC factory sails against other lofts, rather than the original discussion, which some might object to, but it kind of gets to the heart of the IWCA vs. IHCA question. That's OK I guess, but it makes me realize how sweet a deal it is to be in a strict one-design format. My experience with strict One-Design is that it inspires humility, challenges in a very pure fashion a skippers technical and tactical skills on the course. I also like that I can stiff my H16 up, have a new set of sails, and be very competitive. Even better, I'm finding that the skippers that bought new boats this year are about in the same place on the course around me as they have been in the past, even though my boat is 4 years old and has been showing signs of fatigue for a couple of years. Also, I've observed that in this sport you have lots of different types of cat sailors --recreational, OD racing, Portsmouth racing and hotshots who want the fastest thing they can find, etc., etc. In racing, I find the most respect and commaraderie amongst the OD racers, and the reward of finishing well far more rewarding. Nevertheless, in every way I think that, in general, catamaran sailing is the best place to be. A really great group of people. Thanks for the fun!

That was kind on an butt hole thing to say. Why would you say that? Why would you think that? Or are you just flaming me to get me say something controversial? You should give me a call catfever guy, I would like that. Maybe I am missing your meaning. Maybe not.

Time to break it out

Would someone please show me documentation of when the HCA, in any of it's forms, ever allowed any thing but a Hobie to sail at it's events. This

Edict

thing drives me nuts.

I would like to see if the sails really make any difference.
It would be nice to have ten boats with stock sails race a week long event against ten boats that fit the wave class rules and see where the chips fall.
My gut tells me that the better sailor will do better and not the custom sail.

I have raced my 72 H14 with old sails way, way, way over weight and done ok.
I race the H16 way over weight and do ok.
I have a 1984 H16 with bad sails and a bent mast and regularly beat brand new boats at our club races.(did I mention I was way over weight?)
Have I mentioned the nut on the tiller lately?

I can't provide you documentation but I can tell you for a fact that there were at least two Hobie MidWinters East regattas that had an open class that included boats that were NOT Hobies (I was there). I started sailing multi's (TheMightyHobie18) in 95 and the 'X' boats (as they were referred to by the NAHCA) were allowed to sail at our points regattas. Once the

Hobie Edict

was announced Division 8 pretty much went away. The Hobie MidWinters East regatta still happens but that’s pretty much it for Hobie only regattas in division 8.

Div 9 had

X

brand boats since at least 1990 when I started racing, but Im sure before that also. When I joined, there was already a fleet of 18 Sq's, prindle 19's, and a NACRA 5.8 sailing(in Charlotte). I began racing the circuit around the Carolina's and was never turned away on my 1976 5.2, as a matter of fact, I was welcomed with open arms and alot of help from all the sailors. I sucked, but still had fun because of the people who WELCOMED me.
If you or your fleet were turning away

X

boats at that time, Im glad I didnt travel up there to be unwelcome.
Now do you see how this

edict

impacts us non Hobie people?

We are all catamaran people, we should not be brand loyal people, nor should we follow rules of exclusitivity. If you want

cat sailing

to die, keep on excluding boats and practicing SMOD practices.

MHO

I'd like to correct that. The 'edict' in the central Gulf didn't just impact non-Hobie sailors. In fact, that's one of the main reasons why the Texas guys (at least in the southern half of TX) separated. That's also why there aren't any Hobie points regattas central Gulf. In fact, although at the HCA they may be listing 'fleets' in the central Gulf, but except for whatever Brad at Sunjammers might be doing, these 'fleets' in actuality do NOT EXIST. (well, Ken Altman and a few guys at Singing River YC are beginning to scratch something up, but we're talking something like seven people.)

There just aren't enough Hobie sailors down here that they can justify excluding anyone. EVERYONE would lose out. In this part of the world, Hobie only regattas can't garner enough entrants to pay for themselves. Down here, regattas HAVE to be inclusive or they can't hold up.

And I don't see anyone round here running madly to buy Hobies, either. Nor would they, even with exclusivity - that would just piss people off and run them off the brand, as it has done. Racing around here has and continues to be open fleet, friendly, run whatcha brung affairs.

Here's the charter for the TCDYC guys, for instance:

TCDYC Charter and Bylaws
Bylaws

The TCDYC Agrees to no laws and follows the wind in all matters
We are of the view that sailing is a matter of personal choice and a way of life
We intend that all persons should sail catamarans and we invite them to be with us when we do
We will speak to our members and friends in a respectful manner at all times
We will take actions that promote sailing catamarans and will avoid any actions that are prohibited on the beach
We do not collect dues or any money that is not freely given for the enjoyment of the sport
We will individually do what it takes to make sailing at the dike enjoyable and safe for all persons on the beach
We are mindful of the diverse group of attitudes and personalities that comprise TCDYC and its guests. At all times we commit to them and ourselves that we will act respectfully and honorably towards anyone on the beach
We are a unified group with the ability to sail safe and contribute to an enjoyable environment for everyone on the beach

Charter

To build a Yacht club that inspires its members to fulfill their dreams and participate in the possibilities of life.
To be examples of freedom and full self expression in the community
To create a lasting structure for future sailors to follow their desires to be one with the wind and the water

Pat, you are focusing on the broken record crap but losing sight of the big picture.

Everyone agrees on the need to convert recreational sailors into novice racing sailors for the sport of catamaran racing to keep going... and the question is how?

Everyone agrees's that most of the recreational sailors are now getting rotomolded boats like Waves and Getaways.... and the question is how to enroll these guys in yacht clubs and fleets since they are not finding us now and asking to join. (They probably don't feel welcome. ie... they don't fit in with higher performance cats and sailors)

Everyone agrees that this group is one of the targets to get going racing in our Yacht Clubs and fleets. We also HOPE these guys will feed the H16 class and beyond...but just racing Waves will be just fine as well.

But, There are no IHCA wave sailors who go racing... (5 raced a regatta last year).... So, just inviting Hobie Waves to Hobie Regattas is not working. Bottom line..There is no IWCA Wave Class ..... There are just some rules on paper dictated by somebody somewhere.

The IWCA Wave racers were experienced racers who dropped back to the Wave, created a class along OD principles, and are keeping it going as a real OD class of individuals who sail the boat under a rule set they agree on. They HAVE attracted non racers into the class and are getting the boat to be an entry racing boat.... Your standard stock WAVE can join in and race and fit right into the class.

The IWCA model is to have experienced racers lead the class and set a standard for racing. They try to have events where recreational sailors will see them and they try to get the Newbies out racing. The experienced guys make the newbies feel welcome. The tend to run Wave only regattas on courses that the WAVES like ... not the W L courses that racers demand.

Bob Merrick's question is the right one... OK... Somebody does't like the IWCA deal.... What's the solution.... You can't blow up the IWCA deal and do nothing.

The IHCA class model for growing the Wave as an entry level race boat has been operating for several years (according to the paperwork) ... Last Year.. it got 5 boats to go racing. What ever the plan was... it's clearly not working

What is the NEW PLAN? Who is leading it and how does it fit in with Hobie points regattas. That is the big picture!

Mark, I think maybe that is a typo and was supposed to say,

no IHCA Wave Class...

Pat,

I know you are familiar w/ Div11 and Fleet 54 for example ... but as you are mainly a H16 sailor you may have missed the

Open

Classes

For years there where

Open

Classes at several Hobie Events in Div11 .... these were started because we had fleet members w/ H21SE's, H18Mag, H18SX's, H14 Turbos etc, and were trying to develope friendly compitition and maybe convert some to buying Hobie Products. So we had a

Open Class

so these non-sanctioned boats could come out and play. At one point we had +15 boats competing in

Open

Class on non-HCA-NA sanctioned Hobies and boats produced by other manufacture's. We were all friends and were have alot of fun together. But the inconsistent quality of boat construction and sails by Hobie was undermining our efforts .... then came the infamous IHCA's

Hobie Edict

. A Rule never discussed/voted/approved by the local rank & file sailors but instead forced down the throats of the local organizers by the (6) IHCA members that the majority of directly recieve their income (ie:rice bowl) from the Hobie Company/Organizations themselves. Please note that in Div's (north to south) 12, 9, 8, 15, 6 and 10 the

Edicts

effect has been devastating ... literly destroying the local catamaran sailing scene .... splitting long term friendships and making regattas un-sustainable. All these divisions collapsed and many others lost significate numbers of members. Now you do not need to believe me ... just take a look at the numbers from before the IHCA's

Hobie Edict

and after, the proof is there , if you wish to put aside your

Hobie Brand Loyalty

and actually reconize the numbers/trends.

And there is a another side effect .... Most of the

Open

Class Catamarans have joined local yacht clubs ... the

Hobie Sailors

have not. The

buzz

out of California and other places, is that the invitations to

Hobie Catters

will soon end if the YC's don't see increased membership and participation in the YC's. Take my example .... I joined a local YC 3 years ago, I cut the grass weekly, I volunteered to be on the RC for 4-5 events last year alone, and I help organize and cooked a

Homemade Meatball and Spagetti Diner for the Junior Sailing School that served 106 plates and raised approximently $+800.00 between contributions and dinner fees.

Now my YC host's two events/year that cat sailors participate in ... The Annual One-Design that has this year a H14 Class Start, A-Cat Class Start and a

Open

Class ... then there is the Hobie Points Regatta in September ..... and here is the real kicker .... I AM THE ONLY ACTIVE BEACH CAT SAILOR AT THE CLUB !!!!!! I work all spring/summer/fall at various duties so the YC agrees to host these events ... sacrificing my attendence at other events so these events happen. And the

Hobie Only

Edict is not helping .... on any level as it is promoting seperatism/elitism among the catamaran classes (just so a few can keep their jobs????)

(And I do not know how much longer I can convience the Club to host two seperate Regatta's for beach cats as they do not understand the reasoning and consider ALL

Beach Catters

to be from the

Dark Side

.)

Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18(mag)/ Fleet 54, Div11
P19MX/ CRAC,

Open" Class

The point is:
The HCA has bylaws and Fleets have charters. The bylaws have never allowed anything but Hobies at events.
Each fleet can have a commodore and each division has a chairman.
If you want something changed in the association then get it on the agenda to be discussed and voted on at the annual meetings.
Things should not be changed at the whim of any one person or small group.
I haven't met anyone yet that believes their ideas are bad. Everyone thinks their way is the best.

If NAMSA or the NACRA association want to amend their bylaws don't they go through a similar process?

I believe that the HCA should be looking at the F18 issue and also the Wave issues.
I have also discussed allowing fleets to invite other one design classes(ie Sharks ) to attend our regattas as guests.
My head is not in the sand, but there is a process to make changes.
If the issues are brought to the table and the division reps vote them down,then try again next year or work with another group as some have done.

Ok Pat,

When do we ... the rank and file HCA-NA members get to vote on the members forming the IHCA ... Give me a date!!!!!!

There is none, as these 6 people will not allow it to happen .... ever!!!!!!

That is why you argument/position is pure BULLSH-T, respectfully sir.

The HCA-NA will never be able to direct it's future as long as the IHCA can VETO any decision made by the HCA-NA officals that are at least appointed by Division deligates ... who are elected by the members themselves

Harry Murphey

PS: I truely wish you can prove me in-correct .... but in my +25yrs of Hobiedom there has never been an IHCA election that I'm aware of ..... Good Luck on changing the IHCA ... I've given up and will not even petition the IHCA for some minor rules changes for the TheMightyHobie18 Class ..... it's just a waste of my time.