Yes Bob, I hope HCC and IHCA have read this in its entirety and can find it in their best interest to spend time on it and make useful recommendations. It badly needs attention on that level. Right now, we're feeling pounded.
Oops, I should say - We're feeling pounded and don't deserve it. We don't get paid to do this. We have the greatest passion as well. The above mentioned need to find a way to work better so as not to throw water on that fire. I'm fairly thick skinned, but I notice not all others are and we're still loosing some and I'm not sure we're gaining enough to make up for it.
FYI: This is mostly a Class Association issue... not a factory one.
First and most important to the factory, We build the Wave to sell to the recreational market, so any design changes made are entirely related to that cause. The fact that it is enjoyable to race is great!
The original castings and rudders are readily available and already class legal (as factory supplied). I do not think adding EPOs fits that description.
I do not agree with making different sets of sails available. The less changes the better. You simply alienate the entry level guys to appease the hard core... This defeats the purpose of an entry level class. Why make it an
arms race
to sail Waves?
FYI: This is mostly a Class Association issue... not a factory one.
First and most important to the factory, We build the Wave to sell to the recreational market, so any design changes made are entirely related to that cause. The fact that it is enjoyable to race is great!
The original castings and rudders are readily available and already class legal (as factory supplied). I do not think adding EPOs fits that description.
I do not agree with making different sets of sails available. The less changes the better. You simply alienate the entry level guys to appease the hard core... This defeats the purpose of an entry level class. Why make it an
arms race
to sail Waves?
Matt,
The IWCA has had success creating a Wave racing class where there was none. They have found something and created that which did not exist before. While I agree that it is mostly a class rule issue, the factory and the IHCA rules are very closely tied together. It becomes a factory issue / opportunity to offer upgraded options for the boat to meet the wishes of the sailors who desire to race the boats.
There are two choices. Continue to try and push two Wave classes or combine the two. Since nobody seems to be actively racing under the HCA class Wave rules and it's clear that the IWCA doesn't feel that the current ancillary equipment supplied stock with the wave meets their needs, I (and others) suggested making a couple of minor compromises for the betterment of both interests that shouldn't cost much energy or expense or invalidate the Hobie sense for strict one design (supplier) of equipment.
The actively racing wave class decided they would like to have a better rudder system - so they made it happen. Hobie has had rudder choices with every other Hobie boat - why is this any different or less desirable? The IWCA decided that the sails provided by the factory, though completely satisfactory for the rental market, were far too inconsistent for their racing needs (entry level or not) so they went outside and made that happen too. 95 square feet of Pentex from a competent loft isn't going to break the bank...even for a newbie.
Hobie can either work with them to help continue to build on the early success of the class...or not. If Hobie doesn't feel Wave racing is worth the effort then that's all there is to say and things will remain as they are. I don't have a dog in the fight - but I really found your response interesting if nothing else than from a business perspective.
Hobie can either work with them to help continue to build on the early success of the class...or not. If Hobie doesn't feel Wave racing is worth the effort then that's all there is to say and things will remain as they are. I don't have a dog in the fight - but I really found your response interesting if nothing else than from a business perspective.
I second that Jake.
I have Hobie shorts, a Hobie (dead) boat and a current HCA-NA membership, although no Wave at present.
I am, however checking into renting one for Duck and might get on one at Put-In-Bay this summer. It would be nice to see a reasonable solution to these issues. The HCC has everything to gain, both in integrity and sales, to accept the class as IWCA has conceived and administered it.
Sorry, I don't agree that the factory needs to or should follow the lead of a group of sailors who have decided to alter their boats. This is entirely up to the IWCA. We don't control their decisions in any way. They are free to do as they please.
My point, and this is a personal opinion (I'm not the factory's decision maker here) is that in the World perspective of the Wave class, These types of changes to boats are not consistant with the HCA / IHCA or Hobie Cat Company's goals. These are more
Open Class
type changes. Hobie fleets were built on the KISS system (Keep it simple stupid). This has worked pretty well in the past and is still quite valid for the Wave today.
This partnership IS consistent with the HCA goals. That’s why they are trying to develop it. Hobie Cat USA has shot the HCA plan out of the water. So what’s the new plan? Throwing the checker board up in the air and going home is not a plan.
But Matt .....
I'll pass onto you something I learned in a College Business Marketing Course ....
The Customer is always right .... even when they aren't.
It's that simple .... and the IWCA sailors are the customers, so they get to set the rules ....
.... Of course if HCA/HC-Europe/IHCA do not feel that the IWCA rules are consistent w/ their (Hobie's) rules/goals then of course they do not have to supply what the customer wishes ..... but my experience shows me, someone will.
Harry Murphey
My point, and this is a personal opinion (I'm not the factory's decision maker here) is that in the World perspective of the Wave class, These types of changes to boats are not consistant with the HCA / IHCA or Hobie Cat Company's goals. These are more
Open Class
type changes. Hobie fleets were built on the KISS system (Keep it simple stupid). This has worked pretty well in the past and is still quite valid for the Wave today.
Keep the words
Hobie Tiger
in the front of your mind and read the above post again !
Hobie Tiger
in the front of your mind and read the above post again !
Don't follow you.
The Tiger conforms to ISAF rules as a one design. Any rule changes are presented by the IHCA to ISAF for approval.
The IWCA has no such process or international standing / status.
I don't have a horse in this race... but
by far, far,far Hobie sells more Waves to beach resorts than people who race them. If they can mass produce sails that have no QA then what do the resorts care? Provided they don't fall apart I really doubt any resort is pushing for the ability to get sails from a different supplier (cause I really doubt they know it would even be a possibility). Besides, what do they care about racing anyway.
this discussion isn't far from the discussion about the N20, so it isn't a uniquely Hobie phenom. People just like to go after Hobie because of the
edict
and the rotomolded thing.
Your comment implies that the Wave sails are of low quality or inconsistant... This is a comment I have heard promoted by Rick. This is FAR from the truth. Our sails are cut by digital pattern on a plotter / cutter and are built with the same 5.6 oz Tejin dacron as we use on other boats. Tough, high quality material and built to last... and QUITE consistant over hundreds and hundreds of sails made each year. If Rick experienced some problems... they were long ago.
I apologize... I should not have implied that they were not making quality sails... but that if they did produce sails that had wide variation then the resorts wouldn't care.
Your comment implies that the Wave sails are of low quality or inconsistant... This is a comment I have heard promoted by Rick. This is FAR from the truth. Our sails are cut by digital pattern on a plotter / cutter and are built with the same 5.6 oz Tejin dacron as we use on other boats. Tough, high quality material and built to last... and QUITE consistant over hundreds and hundreds of sails made each year. If Rick experienced some problems... they were long ago.
It all doesn't matter. There is NO IHCA rules Wave class. It doesn't exist. Hobie Wave sailboats race with open sails. That's the way it is. Everyone doesn't have to like it (most do however) but everyone does need to accept it. It's game over on that front.
So what's the next step?
Uh? http:/
Table of Contents
INTERNATIONAL HOBIE CLASS ASSOCIATION GENERAL RULES...........................................3
HOBIE DRAGOON CLASS RULES ..............................................................................................10
HOBIE WAVE CLASS RULES ......................................................................................................13
It does matter... and only a handfull of guys are sailing IWCA rules. Not
most
. Their event lists are short and a significant number of the Waves sailing them are stock.
I have just read the editorial that Rick wrote in Catsailor magazine... that certainly explains the bitter tone in many of the posts on this subject.
I know Rick is very proud of the growth of the IWCA. Remember though, Hobie Cat also put in a large amount of effort and expense to provide charter boats and staff for those early events. This is how the fleet down in Key Largo was created. In reality, the growth of our Hobie Wave sales had enabled this... IWCA racing was not responsible for our sales growth by any means. As example, when racing was big for Hobie back in the 80's it amounted to less than 10% of its boat sales... racing is a far smaller percentage of sales these days. Recreation was and is what sells.
To be clear... Our Director of Marketing, Dan Mangus is not the evil doer here. His entire job at Hobie Cat is to promote and protect Hobie, its trademarks and the decades of work we have done to create Hobie products, Hobie Sailing and the life style World Wide.
What I understand that happened... The NOR for the event was written with a comment that IWCA rules would be used for Wave racing. This was the first mistake. This is a Hobie Class North Americans... a Major Hobie event. The IHCA has Wave Class rules. This was spotted by David Brookes / ICHA Director. This was seen as an issue and a bad precedent to be set at a Major Hobie event. To try and resolve the issue, a group of HCA and HCC people discussed the subject and proposed to have the racing governed by IHCA Wave rules and that an exception would be used to allow IWCA conforming boats race this event. This is where Dan and Hobie Cat left the discussion. A very reasonable compromise. Where this was derailed after that, I don't really know. Maybe someone will explain that to us here.
Further... I suspect many if not most IWCA sailors, who would have come, would not have traveled the thousands of miles West with their own boats anyway... so why not promote the use of the factory provided charter boats? I suppose... that would be seen as
giving in
to the factory and HCA? I really don't get it. They should come and sail.
Uh? http:/
Table of Contents
INTERNATIONAL HOBIE CLASS ASSOCIATION GENERAL RULES...........................................3
HOBIE DRAGOON CLASS RULES ..............................................................................................10
HOBIE WAVE CLASS RULES ......................................................................................................13
It does matter... and only a handfull of guys are sailing IWCA rules. Not
most
.
Really? A piece of paper? Come on man you're smarter than that. Let's be pragmatic here.
Not really sure what your objective here is. This isn't even your racing class. You still race 16s, you want to open up the H16 class too? I don't think you would get many takers on that idea.
Look... Hobie Cat and the HCA had offered a solution... an exception to allow IWCA boats at Havamega. If they didn't want to play, thats their choice.
I am with Matt on this,take a breath and relax.Matt has a good point 16 sailors did not even want a new 6:1 downhaul on there boats.From a distance this all seems trivial.If you like racing the Wave go out buy a boat or better yet charter a new one.
You want pragmatic? Enable your PM.
J
Look... Hobie Cat and the HCA had offered a solution... an exception to allow IWCA boats at Havamega. If they didn't want to play, thats their choice.
I’ve sporadically put quite a bit of time into this issue over the years. I’ve done this because the HCA saw a benefit from having a partnership with the Wave class. It’s apparent that the HCA still thinks this is a good idea and so I was really disappointed to hear about how the entire thing was stymied. I want this to work because it would be good for the HCA and the HCA wants it. That’s my motivation.
It’s also very disappointing to see the manufacturer exert undue pressure on a class decision.
Did you not read that Brookes was the one to identify the
problem
.
Did you not read the part about the exception?
Hardly undue pressure by the Manufacturer. Common sense guidance maybe.
Did you not read that Brookes was the one to identify the
problem
.
Did you not read the part about the exception?
Hardly undue pressure by the Manufacturer. Common sense guidance maybe.
yea I read your post but I've seen this movie before
As have I... it gets REALLY old.
I agree. Way old.
So let’s break the mold. Be bold. Do something different. Take a little risk. Try a new way.
Who knows it just may work out.
...just a thought
Whats more bold than saying... bring 'em on. Thats what we did.
As far as I'm concerned, that can still happen. But (in the words of GW Bush) I'm not the decider.
I just realized what a loop this thing has been on. Matt Bounds had explained the whole thing in his first reply to this thread. 1st page.
Where it derailed is that Gordon and I talked at length abouit the 'exceptions' (which was a fair compromise, no question) and decided between us that we'd rather not go to the trouble to get IHCA rules committees and others involved in what we didn't feel would be a long term solution and having to deal with with it sooner than later seemed a better course of action for us. 15 pages later, I still think we were right to stop the train there. Who knows how many ruffled feathers there would be if we would have had to do this AFTER a successful HavaMega.
15 pages over the wave.....mmmmnnn Tiger , Wildcat , F-18....we had it figured out in 2001 but.... ah well..
...When do we get to start racing the Adventure Islands? It's a one-design sailing multihull...