Unwelcome.... re Waves

Dear Pat,

After a long and pleasent conversation w/ someone I repect immencely I will apologize if I upset you .... that was not my intention. I have friends in common w/ you and they speak highly of your committment and passion. And I had a absolutely outstanding experience at the 2007 TheMightyHobie18/H17 North Americans. But the experiences I've had here in Div11 have been markedly different then yours in Div16. I would like to recommend that you carefully read Miss Tami's, Mr David Lennard's and Mr Mosely's posts and ask yourself a simple question ... why have these people chosen to leave or never join Hobiedom??? Talking among the

Hobie Believers

will not give you solutions/answers to the issues. (It's similiar to have someone else read your termpaper for spelling mistakes)

Just a thought, are you upset w/ me because I am a HCA-NA member???

Now I spent 5-6 years studing Mech Eng at Drexel University, learning to use

scientific methods

to analyse problems and reach the proper conclusions. Now everyone's experiences can be different and therefore everyone can reach different conclusions ..... it doesn't mean everyone else is wrong though.

Now for Mike/Brucat,

You have been excellent as the membership chairperson in increasing the HCA-NA's membership but ..... your statement that I do not really care and I do not think or get my facts correct .... well I do take that personally. I quess I shouldn't personally have joined RHYC so we could have a

Hobie Points Regatta

since Fleet 54 is having big issues on paying the insurance coverage for races on the Chesapeake Bay, or loading my Gravely Tractor into my F150, drive two hours and mow/trim the RHYC Yacht Club's 7-8 acre's of grass, or ask the

Board

personally so they agree to host a H14 Class Start .... or host a Hobie Points Regatta when I'm the only Hobie member at the Yacht Club. (It woulds cost the Div approximently +$1000 /weekend additionally to rent the club and the facilities not including the actual regatta fee's if I were not a member. Devide that by 30-35 boats and tell me how much I'm saving the Div11 sailors each by my paying $425.00/yr for membership)and working my butt off. Nowhere in my posts did I use vulgar language, insult or call people names ... I only stated my opinions that have been developed from my personal experiences since I started sailing

Beach Cats

in 1982/83. (And when did you start sailing/racing Hobies? ... 1998???)

Now I'm asking you politely not to insult me PERSONALLY ... I am 3/4 Scotch-Irish, 1/4 German and all CELT!!! You remember the Celt's ... they were the guys who would strip naked ... paint their bodies blue ... pick-up a

Claymore Sword

and charge you screaming at the top of their lungs, while hacking you to pieces.

So you can disagree w/ me but, keep on making personal attacks on this

bear

.... and you WILL NOT enjoy the response as I will be brutal, vicious and direct .... Let's take your last post for example:

If it becomes more sucessful the the Hobie Cat Regatta's in the rest of the country, more power to you

Now we are talking about Wave's racing, so let's compare Apples to Apples should we .... as mentioned earlier in this thread there have been 4-5 Waves that have appeared at HCA-NA events and raced under IHCA rules ... while the IWCA event in Florida last December attracked approximently 20 competitors that raced under IWCA rules and there is more events in this year before December.

Hmmmmmmmmm .....

Your words ....

more power to you .....

So you support the IWCA rules I would quess ... or do you want to change your rules ?????

The reason I dropped out of the NAHCA after being one of the early members .... We, the TheMightyHobie18 Class sailors had submitted some minor rule changes for the TheMightyHobie18 Class ... they were voted on and turned down at the Annual Meeting which was held at the H16 NA's .... THERE WASN

T A SINGLE TheMightyHobie18 SAILOR (in all likelyhood) IN ATTENDENCE!!!!! Here's an idea, let's hold the meeting at the different NA Championships on alternating years. (Do you think the reason I maybe misinformed on the IHCA selection process is since it has only been held at H16 events????? and I race TheMightyHobie18's .... daaaaaaaaa????)

And how are you promoting

membership" by personally attacking HCA-NA members because of their various views that don't align w/ yours?????

Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18/ Fleet 54/Div11
P19MX/ CRAC/Open Class

Chris,

Your fundamental mistake is that you are confusing a Hobie Fleet/Yacht club with the sailors racing one design on a Hobie xx at some YC's/catamaran club event.

If my Yacht Club, offers any group of catamarans a start if they have 5 or more boats... and you start a campaign to pull one of those sailors out and have him start a NEW Yacht Club and then have this Club/Fleet run a race with at least one Hobie in a class = a race.... What do you think I and the volunteers at the Yacht Club would have to say about your efforts?

Now consider the fact that many of these organizations USED to belong to the Hobie universe of yacht clubs before they were forced to choose a different path...

Instead of trying to compete with the existing organizations that make catamaran racing go in the states you mention you should find ways to support those clubs that are vital to cat racing in huge chunks of the country.

... Perhaps you should look for FLEET CAPTAINS who would beat the bushes for Hobie XX's ... organize the troops, and get them to turnout at the YC events in the region and try to make those events as successful as possible.

Respectfully
Mark

Mark, you are completely full of ****.

yeah... how so?

Ah lets see. If someone told you the sky was blue, you'd tell em' its red. All you want to do is be a disagreeable schmuck about EVERYTHING. Chris isn't out there to pirate other clubs fleets. It just isn't the intent.

http://www.grassrootsthemovie.com/gr/Home.html

Something very important that all of you are overlooking.

Slow down and think.

Harry, I've re-read your prior response to Pat several times, and still don't see how you don't see that as offensive, but I'm willing to take your word for it. I only responded to your posts with countering facts, and got irritated when it appeared that you were attacking volunteers.

Your last post is full of even more erroneous information. Here are some corrections:

I bought my first Hobie Cat in 1990 while in college. Started racing in 1996, bought my first new boat in 1997, now I'm on my third new one.

Since you took the time to ask around about Pat AFTER you started laying into him, perhaps you should do the same for me. I'll bet you a beer that I've been more involved in Hobie class management since 1997 than you have since 1982, so I'm not sure where you're trying to go with that gem.

I'm Irish too, not sure what type, but again, probably not a point worth discussing.

I personally agree with the HCA policies and class rules. I also stand by what I said, if someone invents a better mousetrap, I'm happy for them. It doesn't affect me an iota, I'm not paid for any of this either.

Here is an exact quote from my reply on Oct 3, 2008 when we started formally discussing this:

So, if allowing these non-Hobie parts for this event results in a huge Wave turnout, and lots of the Waves are there just because they were able to use whatever cloth they have available, call it a victory, and consider moving to have the IHCA Wave class rules changed permanently afterwards (for points regattas, etc.).

More fun facts... In the intervening years when you decided not to renew your membership, several HCA AGMs were held at events OTHER than the H16 NAs.

I'm ready for your apology.

Mike

Sailing is largley a corinthian sport. The rules bear out the honesty. Use the rule book consistently and it will solve the majority of the problems. The rules are clear(usually) and apply to all sailors. It is obvious to me that COMMUNICATION is the issue in this case. Debate is assigned to the RC. Don't stroke out about it here... BTW, I am Irish. Have another beer and go to bed.

THAT's why I'm so irritable today. Too much blood in my alcohol system! <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Mike

Happy Hour cures many ills.

Root cause issues can be revealed by happy hour, in my experience.

Where do you want to meet? ;-} Las Vegas? Maybe?

Mark, you can look at it however you want. I have a responsibility to my org, and that's as far as I go with it. If you feel I have made a fundamental mistake, I am sorry for that, but I plan on doing what it is that I do, and more of it. We have a good/great thing going, and always have and if I ever become part of some other form of sailing organization, then I'll do what I do for them. Until then, I don't think I am out of line by trying to solicite Hobie Sailors in less active areas to help organize Hobie events. You go on and do what you do, and I'll critique it for you later.

Xan,Bru, Matt, et al ,
What happened to the Hobie fleets that were in those areas?
I'd say David just proved his point in spades, it's a shame no one will listen.

I don't often understand nor agree with Mark, but he wins the prize here.

What happened to the Hobie fleets?
They were not Hobie fleets any more.

When any of us that our members of the HCA join, we do so voluntarily and are expected to follow the bylaws of the group we joined. It's our choice. If you choose a different group, fine.
My fleet has always followed the bylaws that we agreed to abide by. That doesn't mean we don't debate them and sometimes want them changed to keep up with the changing times, we do.
Everyone wants facts and to see results.
Our way of doing things has worked at achieving the results we are after.
You can read Tom's account of our fleet race last night.
If the idea is to get people sailing, including women and youth.
I would bet that there is no catamaran group in the country that is even close to the amount of boats we have put on the line over the last 20 years. Yes they are mostly Hobie 16's, THAT WAS THE PLAN.

Harry, I don't much care what color you paint yourself.
I'm not to quick at the forgive and forget stuff.
To many people think they can do and say what ever they like and think an apology makes it all go away.
I took a few minutes to look over results from Division 11,12 and 16 over the last ten years and can only find your name one time. Last year at Wildwood.
Over the same ten years I have helped run a couple of Nationals, sailed in NAC's on both coasts, the Florida gulf and some corn field in Iowa. <img src="<>/shocked.gif" alt="shocked" title="shocked" height="15" width="15" />
Not to mention many weekend regattas in at least 4 different divisions.
You certainly have a right to your opinions. They would have a bit more merit with a lot more participation.

Bisesi,

The Syracuse fleet isn't successful because it stuck to a brand. Syracuse is successful because it has dynamic leadership.

There is a degree of truth to that, Tami. But, I can tell you from first-hand knowledge that the support of the Hobie Cat Company hasn't hurt (intentional, major understatement).

In this case, the importance of the brand, beyond company support, is as Pat alluded to above. It gives everyone a core to hone in onto. While others may be successful at bringing together a bunch of boats to sail on handicap, Hobie fleets choose to focus on bringing together Hobie Cats.

It's hard to argue with their success.

Mike

I shall argue, because your paradigm has NOT worked in my neck of the woods, and apparently isn't working in a large part of the country, as is evidenced by Wessels' stepping and fetching to get people to develop fleets.

You see, when the fastest multihull sailors in the country live near you, and NONE of them sail Hobie... well... it's VERY hard to argue with that.

Leadership and a lot of volunteers is a given for success.
We really have no way of knowing if the brand made a difference.
I believe it had to help some.

One of my favorite authors is Napoleon Hill. In his 17 principals of success book he discusses a clearly defined definite major purpose as a key to success.
Right or wrong, we have chose to make Hobie's and more specifically the H16 as our definite major purpose.
I feel like we have been successful, others may disagree with our goal, but it's hard to argue with the results.

I enjoy following what is happening with F16,17,18, A cats, waves,N20 and the Tybee race. There is strong leaders in each of those groups.
The trouble with strong leaders is we (ME) are usally single minded and hard headed(guilty) <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" /> (look Chris, I used the face thing)
I hope all the groups promoting those classes and events also find the success they have defined.

Nice face, Pat.

But at what point of trying to further our causes do we realize that the success of our cause comes at the detriment of another cause?

I believe your cause to be mutually exclusive, which it is. By building the Hobie-only fleets, you'll be pulling boats away from EMSA regattas by splitting the fleets. We all have lower turnouts at that point.

By builing the fleet inside EMSA, you can still achieve your goal of larger fleets of Hobies; you'll still have one design fleets and starts (with 5 boats of course), but you'll have the comraderie and strength of larger regattas.

Hobie doesn't have to support the whole regatta, but they could support any given fleet inside the regatta.

Tami, I was referring to Fleet 204's success. Other areas have floundered, probably for the very reason that you gave, no strong local leadership. There's only so much that

upper management

can do.

The fastest...

Some, but arguably not all.

Trey, in a nutshell, as a class, we (the HCA) don't care about building large mixed-bag regattas. As Pat and Chris have stated, this is the direction that the Hobie class has chosen as our best path forward. Others may disagree, but we feel that this is the direction we want to go. And, for those who may have forgotten, we tried it the other way, the results were worse for the Hobie classes (it was just taking longer for fleets and events in weaker areas to completely evoporate).

I also agree with Chris on another topic, that this is what we do for the Hobie class. Many of us support other events, and wear the appropriate hats at that time. There is a time and place for handicap racing, and it can be fun as well.

So, for anyone trying to pin me down, good luck...

Mike

And that is why you will fail in the Southeast.
I know this area, I know these sailors, and I know the boats.

And for the record: I've got no bias for any manufacturer, other than the fact that I support and help lead the fleet in which I sail (N20).

That's an honest opinion that may have merit, and I respect that.

Mike

So Mike, given these statements you make, you and Wessels are duty bound to admit that your goals are not to promote BEACH CATAMARAN sailing, but HOBIE sailing.

And your goals are not best for the SPORT, but only best for the BRAND.

You both would be abject hypocrites to suggest that your ultimate goals are to promote CATAMARAN sailing, as Wessels tried to state within this very thread, and Todd Hart did correct.

It has again become crystal clear to me that within the HCA as you two represent it there is no altruism whatsoever for the sport, it's all about the brand. That's fine, but be damned sure you don't make any inclusive or sport-altruistic statements, for that would be lying.

I had a dog....and his name was

Bingo

.

Mike, As a past, and hopefully future member of your fleet, I ask how our racing health is? Since the Hobie only ruling fleet 28 has died, and as far as I know numbers are way down for our races and regattas. I'm not a racer, but know we used to regularly have A,B and C fleets for 16s. Many who ran races, and served as RC had moved to Nacras but contributed a great deal to running and promoting the fleet. Now we have separate clubs, and smaller core groups running them. For the past decade my time has been devoted to senior care, and aside from a couple afternoons at nationals, my volunteer time was limited to emails and the forums. I have always appreciated the work done by you, and the others that have managed to keep our fleet alive, but wonder how it plays out in this debate. Maybe Bob Merrick will comment on his view, since he is an active racer. Thanks, Brian PS: I did show up in New Bedford at the learn to sail put on by Rick Bliss, when none of our fleet officers did.

Ok, I guess I will get myself in some real hot water now.
When IHCA sent down their Hobie only enforcement to the HCA, part of the plan was to implement a national scoring system for each class. You earned points by attending Hobie only events.
If you ranked in the top 35 in the 16 class you were invited to the supplied boat Nationals in Ventura. This was thought to be a three year program at that time. It turned out to be one year. This ranking system also helps qualify people to attend the Worlds run by IHCA.
So the ranking system doesn't really do much anymore. The good guys can still go and qualify even if IHCA doesn't give us any spots(I Think).
So where I'm going is, HCA does need to keep it's eyes open to what is going on all over the country. I know Chris is not clueless and does see what's happening.
We could be the HCA with the primary objective to promote Hobie sailing and an overall objective to promote Catamaran sailing. I know I have posted things like this before, Why not explore inviting A cats, Sharks, all F18's to a Hobie regatta on a trial basis and see how we do. The pre-qualified spots at the Worlds might be put in jeopardy,but is that more important than the overall health of the sport and ultimately our organization?
I think we could certainly use guys like Trey, Jake, Rick and many more on the same team.

Ok Mike, I will turn in my cards now. I did plan on retiring anyway after my highest finish ever at a Madcatter.

I want everyone to realize that the strength of an individual fleet does not represent what is going on in the racing scene.

For example, here in Santa Cruz:
I've got about 60 boats on the beach every summer of which maybe 2 ever race.

We get about 80 members that join our local fleet every year of which maybe 1/3rd ever race.

We generally get from 30-45 boats at every regatta many that are not members of any fleet.

J

I see this as the right time and place for everything. I am NOT against any other cats.

I don't see how polluting the HCA goals and objectives with the goals and objectives of other classes is a good idea. This has not worked in the past, and can be viewed as a contributor to the current state that Brian mentions (of course, there were other factors). SMOD was even adopted by NENSA for a while to push to get upwards of 13 Nacra 6.0NAs on the line at some of our regattas. Open class racing was simply not getting it done in New England, other areas reported the same issue.

For me, this is very simple, yet so complex (paraphrased from BTE)...

I own a Hobie, and want my primary racing to be done with as many other SMOD Hobies as possible.

I also occasionally enjoy racing in distance races, where the

necessary evil

means racing handicap (my issue with this has to do with the scoring issues that have been hashed out ad nauseum on this forum, not being anti-Brand ABC Catamaran).

I also enjoy running regattas for ALL types of boats. Optis, Lasers, lead mines, etc. My favorite races are cats, because not only is it more fun to sail, but it's also more fun to watch faster boats.

So, yes, I can be interested in the health of the Hobie class as a SMOD entity, and be interested in catsailing in general.

Based on some postings here, that seems to be something that certain individuals cannot compute, but I assure you that is more of a reflection of them than me.

Pat, if I ever even get a trophy at Madcatter, I'll probably have the boat bronzed...

Mike