The MHC is getting ready to submit a set of gear requirements to the Safety at Sea Committee of US Sailing. This would set a standard for Yacht Clubs to reference when giving beach cats a start.
The other half the equation is the PRO and the OA. when should they pull the plug.
Rick White recounts this event.
Talk aboout blowouts, I recall the 13th Annual Key Largo Steeplechase held on Saturday the 13th of December.
First day wasn't bad, but the second day the race started in winds over 25, and were said to gust close to 50.
of the 45 boats, only 3 finished.
With the winds out of the west most of the boats washed up on shore all along the Keys on the Bay Side.
The start is on the ocean side and the winds were sailable at the start, so most of the boats were already on the inside of the Keys when the bad stuff hit the fan.
All but a couple of boats, that is. One boat was never seen again, both sailors were rescued.
Marine Patrol and Sheriff were threatening to arrest everyone and confiscate their boats -- saying it was a frivolous activity on the water.
I believe Mary said in her editorial about it,
All water activity is frivolous, except for fishermen and drug runners.
laugh
Rick
_________________________
Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
I have been on both sides of this issue....as a competitor and as the OA.....
Personally, I think you have to rethink the problem each and every time.... After things have inverted... you don't want to have half assed this one.
When and Who should pull the plug?
<img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />
The RC should pull the plug when they do not feel it is safe for them, their mark boats, chase boast, etc to be on the water. The decision to sail/not sail falls squarely on the shoulders of the competitors!
To date, is anyone aware of a case where a club/OA has been successfully sued by a competitor due to damage/injury/death that had occurred during a race in
sporty
conditions.
That will occur immediately upon USS, the federally mandated sailing monopoly, establishing a protocol.
Once that protocol is established the Coasties will charge you a ****-ton of money to rescue you. And rightly so.
Bingo, Karl and Pete nailed it!
Mark what did Rick do to piss you off so bad!
My point is that politics has an interest in sailors whether sailors are interested or not.
If you want input into the
federally mandated sailing monopoloy
and the protocols they will be establishing to govern you, join USS and demand open popular elections.
Good standard answer.... But insurance and legal liability are not the cutting issue here.
We don't and can't sweep the beachcat fleet in a distance race. Often, the OA often has no one on the water and so the issue for the OA jumps to a more difficult level of decision.
So... we have two kinds of races... Steeplechase and Great Texas where the OA and sailors can make a decision each day of the race and the impact is just on cat sailors.
VS
In something like the MKL or the Chesapeake Race to Oxford with many monohull boats which meet PHRF safety regulations for the type of racing ....a monohull competitor would have had to drop out to rescue the Hobie 16 had they discovered the situation. There is no question for the monohull, they will render assistance... But
The OA does not have to accept entries from Beach Cats....so IMO... we need to think about how WE manage the issue when the safety standards are so different between beachcats and the rest of the fleet.
When I set up the big races with monohulls... I delivered the message that the big monoslugs are NOT our safety backup plan!
This was to both the OA and the Beach cat racers.
Beachcats are included in these big PHRF races because I leveraged a request from the J22 fleet to participate in the race. J22's do not meet the PHRF safety standard and so they also needed a waiver.... In the end... the J22 fleet decided against racing but we have had a great run of races.
So far, it has been working.... just a few requests for redress for the monohulls bailing out a cat sailor or two.
It would be nearly impossible to create a standard that could be applied to cancel a race. Wind speed, wave height, air temperature, water tempurature, current, etc. all play a factor. How do you create a universal standard? 20 knots in Boca Ciega Bay (protected flat water bay in Florida) in june is probably far different conditions than 20 knots in Hyannis (open ocean in the north east) in November!
I agree. It is a difficult issue.
The time to form your current position is now... not after the FUBAR.
I think guidelines are appropriate here... Standards are too much.
The standards are for GEAR... The idea is that the OA can just require at a minimum the Safety at Sea gear list. It solves the problem... of who made the YC the safety guru of beach cat racing.
US Sailing > Class rules > YC rules > your idiocyncratic opinion on
safe
If you want to know what happens when you DON"T think about this stuff...
See the fall out from the SSA junior disaster.
See the fallout from the Chi to Mac disaster.
Wait for the fallout from the Farloones disaster.
Wait for the fallout from the N2E disaster.
Oh... and it matters because the stand alone insurance hit for the OA running distance races is now up ~1000 bucks or so.... see impact on Islander Reef run/ex Hogsbreath
I think that ultimately it is the sailor's responsibility to go out, unless it is really extreme (35+ kts).
Some insurance companies have a clause with a maximum wind limit as well, worth checking before racing.
My position: The decision to pull the plug is at the discretion of the OA.
You've been given an opinion by several people and you clearly don't agree with it. Do what you're going to do Mark.
I think Mark is the messenger here not the decision maker.
No... more then messenger.
I made the initial proposal on gear standards to move this issue. Bert Rice and Randy Smyth have a draft that is being worked on by the MHC's other member who is on the Safety at Sea Committee.
Gear is just part of the debate.
My position: The decision to pull the plug is at the discretion of the OA.
So.. if the Miami to Key Largo guys at Miami Yacht club decide to pull the plug on the beachcat start but allow the rest of the fleet to race... you are OK with that?? ....
Or do you think there should be some consensus on guidelines, standards, rules, etc.
Did I hear my name mentioned? Add Bob Hodges and Jon Farrar as members of the US Sailing Multihull Council Safety Committee.
http:/
Forgive the old news - I'll get to it...just finished updating my SOARS for the year.
The Safety Recommendations Mark referred to were originaly developed by the GYA MHC. They are available to sailors for review. Your input to the MHC Safety Committee is welcomed. We always pay attention to forehanded measures we might include.
Contact me off forum,
Bert Rice, MHC Safety Committee Chair
There is a placeholder on the May 30 MHC meeting agenda for a discussion on the safety committee report. However, despite numerous requests, I have not received the final draft so I can post it for folks to review prior to the meeting. If that does not happen, don't expect a vote to approve.
Also, we should be acting proactively here, not reactively. We don't need to wait for a bad event and the Coast Guard or US Sailing to require action (see recent activity in California).
The MHC should have a nimble, active safety committee that looks at stuff like the
cool video
and finds ways to communicate useful recommendations to the cat sailors. Note, I said useful recommendations, not onerous requirements.
This is simply the right thing to do, and I'd love to have volunteers come forward to help.
Mike
I volunteer!
You were provided the recommendations for the AGM in October, but I'll re-send them.
It's not about me, it's the MHC that has to vote to approve.
At the autumn meeting, we were told that it was an unfinished version, so no vote was taken.
Obviously, all of our attention over the winter has been on the Alter Cup, so I can understand why this slipped.
Mike
Just so that everyone knows what this is all about..... This document is only about safety gear and equipment and has to go Safety at Sea and for that group to consider it and publish this in the Safety guidelines.
We are looking for that good housekeeping seal of approval on equipment so that YC and other OA's can defer to a group of
experts
for the NOR.
We have gotten the right expert opinion to write it... So we should be able to move the ball.
The next step is for the MHC committee to consider forming a committee of PRO's and OA's that run the distance races and evaluate guidelines for these events.
When the sailing community is evaluating what happened in 6 deaths. IMO, you need to take a fresh look at your own niche of the sport... Before the crisis.
I suspect these guidelines for PROs and OAs would be published by the MHC and not look for sanction by any other US Sailing committee.
The committee could also consider the issues and make no recommendations. The strength of the report rests on the experience and judgment of those people on the committee.
Now I starting to agree with Karl from the other thread. If your boat is rated to handle the wind and wave conditions -- and forecasts -- and you are geared up for the conditions, then no problem. Accidents may still happen.
I know from the Hobie forum Karl is good with rigging and gear. Sailing in conditions that were to the limit of his boat might get extreme, but the gear and rigging is there to rely on. But if someone is not rigged up or geared up for the conditions, then that's more the problem. Not sure what you are asking here, on this forum?
Well, the document, as written, basically reinforces JJ's point. It lists some gear and equipement that would be good to have aboard, and reiterates that the sailors are ultimately responsible for putting themselves in harms way, but basically says nothing about the OA role.
My understanding is that this committee (and charter to write this document) came about specifically at the request of yacht clubs that were being asked to potentially host cat/tri regattas for the first time.
I don't see a whole lot in this draft that would help such a club decide what their responsibilites are (in terms of wind/wave guidelines, being rescue-capable, etc.).
Mike
Since my spring cold is keeping me out of the boatyard, I'll carry on with this discussion.
As a race officer, trained by many talented ROs, I will run the race (under common sense) until the Chief Judge or USCG shuts it down. We have a club on our bay that is famous for cancelling a race on the day before, only to have great weather on race day. They also have displayed the propensity to grab high entry fees and remain at the bar if the weather is 'uncomfortable' for them. Their credibility and attendance is suffering.
There will probably never be an ISAF check off list for ROs to apply in threatening or angry weather, so do not look for a guide; use common sense and trust the talent of your Race Comm and your racing sailors. Be prepared with adequate safety boats with jumpers when hosting cats or the modern sporties w/out auxiliary power.
If there is an ISAF 'safety guide for race management' I have never seen it, but I love enlightenment.
The problem isn't with those of us who know these boats and sailors (and know what we're doing), it's for the clubs and ROs that are new to cats. You'd be amazed how many very senior ROs have never run a cat regatta before.
This isn't about substituting for common sense, it's helping them to help us where appropriate.
Mike
I have been hoping for an opportunity to do some training. Maybe this is a niche the MHC could work into via proper channels. Let me get with Tim Rumptz (Our Area RO) and see if there is a trail. I brought this up at the Miami OCR last year.
We are putting together a day long workshop in our area with focus on scoring software, rules, and best management practices (OTW style). I'll hand off our curriculumn to you when we complete the doc.
The current USSA training seminars in the GYA have turned into 'certification factories' w/out proper on the water training.
A scary moment is in 15+knts, when your dear friend has been blown over on a F16 SH, and one (MSO) is SH on a 16 ft center console. I got him back on the boat and help right it. There are not that many non - cat sailors who would know what to do.
Ask Randy about the USCG sometime when you meet him:) Boats are expendable to those guys.
Why don't you guys work up ideas for skills and practices we might include? I'll get with Steve Green and see what the pros out west are doing. ML - contact Mark Hansen. Maybe we could build a package for a NA training tour USSA would sign off on, but I am sure before we could take action, the bureacracy would claim its share of time, money, and control.
Food for thought...I vowed after that event I will never SH mark set ops again uless we are sailing off the sandbar near PYC with optis:).
Some good thoughts here, Bert. Some quick comments:
It is well known that US Sailing does a great job at standardizing RO training, but falls flat when it comes to mark boat and safety boat training. The thought process has always been that the ROs would train their mark boat operators, but it has become fairly obvious that this lacks standardization that could benefit everyone.
We are working on that as we speak, through the Race Management office. There is a model program in development in Newport, and it includes on-water operations.
This is intended to be a good thing, and is coming from the bottom up, so the conspiracy theorists need to give it a rest.
I only have one polite word for a single-handed mark boat: Useless. I have plenty of other words that I won't post here...
USCG is not there for your boat. Ask me how I know...
--------------
All: The safety committee report is now in the hands of the Area Reps, and the comment period is open.
Contact your Area Rep to get a copy and/or provide feedback, we would like to be able to approve this on May 30.
One option would be to approve this document now, and take some additional time to handle the OA recommendations as a separate document, under a new Ad Hoc committee.
Mike
So that would make sense, then, that a top-tier event might proceed in conditions that a local regatta would not (i.e. wind/sea conditions). It could be argued that top sailors and their equipment can handle conditions that might cause a lot of accidents in a fleet of average or new sailors with boats which aren't in top shape.
Of course, the rudimentary
no-go
conditions:
- small craft advisory in effect (22-33 kts sustained / 6-7 Beaufort)
- lightning
- surf in excess of 1.5 meters
- any tornado/hurricane/microburst warning
- any race that my brother is sailing <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
Exactly.
The main value of guidelines and a compilation of best practices is for the OA, PRO and the racers to take a careful look at the collective wisdom in preparation of the race day.
at that point.... to use JJs words...
There are three pieces to this situation
Ignorance
Stupidity
Accidents
IMO, we can do something about Ignorance.