Our local club has a race every year the Frenchy’s Rum Run… This goes out to Anacapa Island and back.. This is an easy race that is good “tune up” for the Island Series that starts a few weeks later. It is usably pretty benign weather wise and can be a screaming beam reach on the way back when the wind starts to rip up little in the afternoon.
A few years back we had a freak weather system come through the evening before the race with the weather station at the destination mark showing 40 plus mile winds… This is one of the tools we use to determine the winds:
http:/
We (Race Committee) decided to alter the race course to stay close to shore even with the weather reporting the winds to calm down later in the day…. It may have not been the best decision, but it was the prudent one as the safety of the racers came first. Sometimes you have to make the smart call no matter how much this is going to piss some people off.. In this case it turned out 99% the participants were very happy with the alternate course. We had some great wind for all points of sail, and a good time was had by all.
Needless to say, there was one participant that was very vocal of his displeasure on our decision to which we offered them a refund on the entry fee. Funny thing about this is to this day that one sailor that was not happy with our decision has noted this other forums as his worse day of sailing and it was our fault.
Personally, I have never had a bad day of sailing!!! Guess some folks need to stop listing to the voice in their head!
Excellent OA report!!
Did you consider having the sailors vote on the change?
Did you consider having the sailors vote on the change?
No we didn't... Our race committee has some very experienced sailors for these waters with one of them being licensed captain for some BIG boats. When they note that is pretty gnarly to the point to where they would stay on shore and sit this one out you need to take that advice to heart..
In hindsight that may have been a good way to go, having the sailors vote on it. But, as my dad use to say,
he is too stupid to know any better
and I don't know what the experience levels is on the group as a whole. Therefore the advice from whose experience levels we know is going to hold more weight on the decision..
+1
Individuals are smart... crowds are stupid
Keep the ideas coming, I'm off to Madcatter.
Better yet, grab a Wave and head up there and talk to me about all of this in person! <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
Mike
I have seen a Coomodore take over during an FT 10 M championship and really turned the event into a real mess. He held voting at the skippers' meeting and then on the water.
By the time all was said and done the fleet raced sans spins in the 15 knt zone then went with spins for the race with new pressure at 20 knts. OOPs...Stick with the NoR and SIs. Let the sailors follow the rules.
This was truly a very unprofessional manner of
Yacht Clubing
the fleet of sailors from states away.
The fleet captain became incapacitated and rendered the mark boat he was on useless. I had to manage the course with my crew on my Proline 20. They stayed anchored behind the starting area for both races until we towed them in. The FC spent the day throwing up in front of the lovely ladies he had on his boat:)
He learned some lessons that day, but I am afraid the Commodore felt proud of getting off only two races in great sailing conditions.
letting the fleet vote is not a good idea in that circumstance. If the class is concerned about the limits, let the class specify the limits to be specified in the event documents so they are known by all - there will be MUCH less complaining that way because everyone knew what to expect coming in. Otherwise, the PRO needs to be prepared to shoulder the decision.
I think the A class uses 22 mph, and I hear their sailors refer to it often.
If you're going to try to apply a standard, there is one that is actually in use.
If you're going to try to apply a standard, there is one that is actually in use.
Don't see them communicated much. Maybe I don't look closely enough... Unless
cancel conditions
for my boat are clearly stated, it's hard to know if it's worth it to go. 22 mph sounds good. The point, however, is that you don't say you're going to do something and then pull the plug for a reason that is not communicated IN ADVANCE.
Having a second person on the chase boat is good. Having a second person who is cat sailor is better. This person will know where the chase boat needs to be possitioned to assist in righting or be able to go in the water to assist in righting the boat. I have had circumstances where that person was needed to sail the boat back to shore because the crew and skipper became incapacitated.
Safetly gear on the chase boat(besides tow lines, flags, multiple radios, fenders) should always include vest,gloves and possibly a harness(helps when righting boats).
Pete, I'm sure the boat designers could give you a ballpark
design envelope
windspeed which would be helpful if you had to pick an arbitrary windspeed as your
no-go
point.
I suspect the N20 is around 20 knots (sustained), the F18 and F16 maybe 23-24?
Can you sail successfully in higher than design limits? Sure.
Should you? Possibly (depending on other factors - crew, course, support fleet, etc).
Beyond design conditions, it would be expected that the fleet would suffer greater chance of equipment breakdown, possibly endangering crews and officials. It is at this point that the PRO should step in and weigh the potential risk vs. the safety/support capability available.
And to echo prior posts, the guidelines the PRO will be using for determining when to race should be made available in advance to all participants
Before several of the Alter Cups I worked with, I made a point to get the acceptable recommended wind range to safely sail the particular boat from the manufacturer. These guidelines were then given to the PRO. Concrete data makes decisions easy.
I've always heard that the A-cat class limit is 22 but I don't know that I've seen that documented anywhere. I do know that I would agree with that being the upper limit on an a-cat. It just gets silly after that.
Regarding the F18 and Nacra 20, though, I think 24 or 25 is still
raceable
....but sea state will play into how
raceable
the course is at those levels. My rule of thumb is that if you can reasonably control the risk of capsize and it's still a matter of your skill level and choosing how hard to push for speed, it's raceable. For instance, at 30, you can no longer control the risk of capsize on a 20 and it's only a matter of
when
...at 24-25, you can still usually avoid capsize unless you cross that line and push a little too hard.
True Jake, but what is the design windspeed of the N20? Anyone care to venture a guess?
But to second your opinion, the sea state and course outline have to be factored in. If it's a sheltered course with little if any sea/swell, then you could very well race at or slightly above design windspeed.
If your race venue is unprotected, your participants are underexperienced, and the safety fleet would have difficulties, then the PRO should consider pulling the plug even if the windspeed weren't over design limits.
I'm sure we've all been to one or more buoy races where the safety boats had a hard time keeping up with the flips and other carnage on the course...
Agreed Jake. Every boat is different. I have a different standard in a lake than in open ocean.
The decision has to rest with the PRO. He can take all the input he wants but ultimately it has to be his decision. PRO's that make poor decisions don't last very long.
Get an experienced PRO and it makes it work.
Wouldn't it be nice to give the PRO defendable, objective data to back up their decision?
Wouldn't it be nice to give the PRO defendable, objective data to back up their decision?
Exactly the point... I think that getting this data and some guidelines for PRO's of distance races in particular is a good job for the MHC to make happen.
A Cat upper limit is 22 knots this was put in place in 1988.
Fred Smith
A Cat CAN31
Fred Smith
A Cat CAN31
out of curiosity, where is that documented? I hear that all the time but have never seen it anywhere.
The decision has to rest with the PRO. He can take all the input he wants but ultimately it has to be his decision. PRO's that make poor decisions don't last very long.
Get an experienced PRO and it makes it work.
I hear a lot of talk about how there are lots of other factors other than wind strength that must be considered, but all the other factors mentioned so far seem pretty fixed. Everybody knows well in advance if the race is going to be in protected waters or open ocean, the course outline is a known value too as are the design limits of the boats (at least this can be found.) The only variable that isn't known until day of race seems to be the wind and possibly the quality of the crews?
It seems very reasonable for the NOR to have published wind limits. As in,
given the course outline, location and number of safety boats available, boats of class X will only start if wind is between A and B knots, class Y will only start if wind is between C and D knots...
That way the PRO *is* making the call, but he isn't waiting until day of race to do it, and everybody knows what to expect.
The other half the equation is the PRO and the OA. when should they pull the plug.
Rick White recounts this event.
Talk aboout blowouts, I recall the 13th Annual Key Largo Steeplechase held on Saturday the 13th of December.
First day wasn't bad, but the second day the race started in winds over 25, and were said to gust close to 50.
of the 45 boats, only 3 finished.
With the winds out of the west most of the boats washed up on shore all along the Keys on the Bay Side.
The start is on the ocean side and the winds were sailable at the start, so most of the boats were already on the inside of the Keys when the bad stuff hit the fan.
All but a couple of boats, that is. One boat was never seen again, both sailors were rescued.
Marine Patrol and Sheriff were threatening to arrest everyone and confiscate their boats -- saying it was a frivolous activity on the water.
I believe Mary said in her editorial about it,
All water activity is frivolous, except for fishermen and drug runners.
laugh
Rick
_________________________
Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
I have been on both sides of this issue....as a competitor and as the OA.....
Personally, I think you have to rethink the problem each and every time.... After things have inverted... you don't want to have half assed this one.
When and Who should pull the plug?
The RC should pull the plug if the start and marks boats can't get out or there is no possible way to run a race. If it's a distance race with no start or chase boats then it should be up to the skippers.Start the nanny state stuff and I'll GUARANTEE, you will regret it. If you're giving an inch as a stop-gap measure they're going to take a mile, either way. You just gave in until something happens to institute their own ideas.
p.s. The race Rick is talking about was my first Steeplechase, and got me addicted to distance racing and the self reliance that is needed to do it.
Sime minor points:
Per RRS, the RC runs races as directed by the OA. So, The OA has final call on when too much is too much.
Of course, per the RRS rule for abandoning, racing may be abandoned for reasons including fairness and safety. The PRO usually is the one to make this call.
In a perfect world, the PRO and OA work seamlessly together, making this a non-issue. The problems come in when the PRO has too much ego, or the OA didn't bother to procure enough resources to run a safe event.
One thing that is painfully obvious here is the lean toward A-Cat and spinnaker (read, fragile/overpowered) boat racing, in typical North American (read, light) conditions.
Go to a Hobie 16 Worlds and try to postpone because it's blowing 28, and you'll probably be shot...
Mike
Mike
Any idea on the design windspeed for an H-16?
Also, you mention it's a World level event, so hacks like me couldn't really expect to register and sail, right?
So then it would stand to reason that conditions (possibly outside the design envelope) could be
raceable
because the crews and boats are up to the challenge?
The boat was designed by a surfer, not sure how much wind factored into the equation (although, Hobie is a smart guy, and had some smart friends helping along the way, so I wouldn't rule that out).
If you're a
hack
you can absolutely register and sail, but if you don't prequalify at the NAs, you have to qualify onsite. So, you can be done sailing after two days, then enjoy the rest of your vacation in a nice tropical location.
One issue we have is that since our prevailing winds here are typically a lot less than is often seen at the locations where Worlds are held, it's tough to get good practice, even at NAs.
But, this is one of the reasons that PU would regularly run racing at NAs, even when the winds were over 30 knots and half (or more) of the fleet was ashore, or would be soon...
Mike
Mike
...or the mark boats felt like their personal safety was in danger, and told the RC to get lost.
Gate Boat: RC, RC, RC. This is Gate, we are off station due to safety concerns. {Drops radio in bilge}
RC: Gate, Gate, Gate, RC. Mumble, mumble, MUMBLE...
<img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
Fred Smith
A Cat CAN31
out of curiosity, where is that documented? I hear that all the time but have never seen it anywhere.
That's in the IACA Championship Rules for running World and Continental championships and for guidance at other championship or international events. They are on the IACA website here; http:/
Clause 10 sets it out - upper limit 22 knots average over 15 minutes.
The other half the equation is the PRO and the OA. when should they pull the plug.
Rick White recounts this event.
Talk aboout blowouts, I recall the 13th Annual Key Largo Steeplechase held on Saturday the 13th of December.
First day wasn't bad, but the second day the race started in winds over 25, and were said to gust close to 50.
of the 45 boats, only 3 finished.
With the winds out of the west most of the boats washed up on shore all along the Keys on the Bay Side.
The start is on the ocean side and the winds were sailable at the start, so most of the boats were already on the inside of the Keys when the bad stuff hit the fan.
All but a couple of boats, that is. One boat was never seen again, both sailors were rescued.
Marine Patrol and Sheriff were threatening to arrest everyone and confiscate their boats -- saying it was a frivolous activity on the water.
I believe Mary said in her editorial about it,
All water activity is frivolous, except for fishermen and drug runners.
laugh
Rick
_________________________
Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
I have been on both sides of this issue....as a competitor and as the OA.....
Personally, I think you have to rethink the problem each and every time.... After things have inverted... you don't want to have half assed this one.
When and Who should pull the plug?
The RC should pull the plug if the start and marks boats can't get out or there is no possible way to run a race. If it's a distance race with no start or chase boats then it should be up to the skippers.Start the nanny state stuff and I'll GUARANTEE, you will regret it. If you're giving an inch as a stop-gap measure they're going to take a mile, either way. You just gave in until something happens to institute their own ideas.
p.s. The race Rick is talking about was my first Steeplechase, and got me addicted to distance racing and the self reliance that is needed to do it.
Yeah, there are the nannies. But there are the Crash Dummies too who are looking for a place to practice their main goal. To crash something.
What you would kind of hope is that there is something in between the two extremes. I don't see that there is much problem with what has already been established about boat limits and gear requirements or qualifications. The weak area is NOR. Look at any other major sporting event and there will be a note that says something like:
In case of bad weather...
A NOR can read
In case of winds exceeding the stated limits for your cat, the race organizers may call the race for those boats. Please keep an eye on weather forecasts. If a race is called because of excess conditions, you sail entirely at your own risk and you must make provisions for someone else to pull you out of the water.
Like the Coast Guard. With a tight economy, it cost too much money to show up and have a race called for some un-communicated odd set of reasons. If guidelines are given and the risk is accepted to show up when conditions may be extreme and a race may be cancelled, then there is no one to blame but me for jumping in the car and going.
what if conditions aren't that extreme (but still bad - let's say 15+ with squalls), but the OA / PRO can't get enough support fleet out there (mechanical or staffing issues, for example).
Throw in a relatively novice fleet (weekenders and hacks like me)... what then?
Splitting hairs, I know. But sometimes the forecasts are dead wrong, and I've floated around a course many times in conditions that were nowhere near the forecast - even one posted the evening before.
I guess I'd narrow my focus on this discussion to buoy racing. I think it's pretty much agreed that the distance thing is pretty much up to the participant's discretion as there are rarely on-water support boats in the first place...
Throw in a relatively novice fleet (weekenders and hacks like me)... what then?
Again, everything in your list, except the weather, should be known before the NOR is written up. Therefore the only thing that needs to be mentioned in the NOR are the weather conditions that will cause the race to be canceled.
We need a new start flag..... Risk Apparent/ Race at your own Risk.
That's not a bad idea.