Youth Recreation Trend

Ok, If you must design a new boat.
Why would you start by developing a mast base that has poor repeatability in the home build arena. Glue seems like a bad idea.
If the boat remains a take apart as discussed then why not sleeve your pod(mast base). Slide on the front cross bar and then pin it.(does that make sense?) No bending required.
Just coping and a weld.
You could actually have mast rake adjustment if desired.
It could also be all aluminum if in a fresh water application.

I would think that Twintex would be ideal as it is both lightweight and very robust i.e. will take more abuse than anything else you could build with, but its not really suitable for homebuild.

I don't have any experience of core matt hull production.

Gareth
www.fourhulls.com

The problem Im having Mary is Im doing the pied piper at the club with one 420 and 14 kids doing circuits three in the boat in shallow on race day then I pack the 420 up and race. The kids that then go on their dads cat and have a blast think the 420 is boring and go of it for a month, meanwhile the women sit on the beach and watch. Now I have a couple of guys who would production line the homebuild with me and next summer we could have five or six cats in a class racing. We get a pile of kids out for sailing lessons for the next two weeks they come out religiously every year the kids love it and the parents love the child care. If the kids were excited they would nag the parents into submission on a yearly rental if I maintained them and organised storage and imagine the excitement when they go and compete at other clubs as a six or eight year old, of course the name has to be F10 or F12 I want them laying awake in bed dreaming of a blade at the moment theyre begging for a Moth. Imagine Phil and Wouter getting harassed by 10year olds for technical info and design improvements <img src=

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/>. We may even end up getting some of the mums on the water. <img src=

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yet another long ramble from me
regards

Situations and problems are different in different parts of the world and in different parts of the same country and even in different sailing clubs in the same region.

In your case if your club only has one 420 and all those kids, it sounds like a perfect situation for introducing a fleet of little cats. Hopefully, the

speed disease

would be contagious and spread like an epidemic throughout the other clubs in your area and then all of Australia -- and then to the rest of the world....well, at least in the PERFECT world, that is what would happen. <img src=

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However, I have my doubts that U.S. sailors are going to want to build boats.

In your case, if you have a team willing to build some boats, I think it would be a great idea to REQUIRE the kids who are going to sail the boats to be involved in the building process, so they will appreciate the boats and take care of them and try to avoid running into each and other and damaging them.

This has been a very effective policy at Larry Hale's Scout Camp up in the Florida Panhandle. They get old Hobie 16's donated to them, and the kids, both boys and girls, have to do most of the grunt work to renovate them and also the regular maintenance work.

Maybe you should add a hose clamp on either side of the pod sleeve, going around the main beam. It should make a glue failure less catastrophic by keeping the mast captive if the pod rotates about the beam.

Just got back from Orange Bowl regatta, my kid's second year sailing there. He placed 30th out of 69 boats in the Opti Green Fleet. There were another 185 boats in the Opti Gold fleet. (the gold fleet was made up of 3 age divisions and had 4 sub-fleets rotating across 2 starts of approx 90 boats each.)

The Opti Green fleet there does a tremendous job of making the regatta fun for all beginning racers. It was something Joey very much wanted to do again after last year, even though he finished at the back of the pack last year.

http://www.coralreefyachtclub.org/index....p;edit_id=18535

I think this is a rather old picture from the Orange bowl venue.

Kids having FUN in Optimists?
According to the people on this forum that's impossible so it must be a lie.
How could kids have fun on such a low tech out dated boat?
The 250+ Opti kids in Miami last week had a terrible time. They just can't stop smiling for long enough to realize it.

Kids having FUN in Optimists?
According to the people on this forum that's impossible so it must be a lie.
How could kids have fun on such a low tech out dated boat?
The 250+ Opti kids in Miami last week had a terrible time. They just can't stop smiling for long enough to realize it.

Yeah, but I'd guess that these kids have never been on a cat in their lives. Get them into something new that looks cool, is fast, and not too complicated and I guarentee they will be hooked. I started out on a Sunfish 3 years ago and thought it was the greatest boat ever. Then I discovered the catamaran......after that, there was no more Sunfish, and instead I bought myself an H16. What I'm saying is that if you give them the option of the F12 or the Opti, I guarentee they'd go for the cat. But personally, I don't think the purpose of this,

campaign

is to convert mono sailors to cat sailors. I think we should try to aim for the kids who have never sailed before, like kids who don't have parents who are active sailors, get these F12's running, then offer lessons or seminars to teach them. Parents who aren't active sailors don't want to lug a boat to the lake or wherever to watch their kid sail, they want to drop their kid off, know that they are supervised, and know that they will have a good time sailing (or racing) a bunch of club boats. I haven't had the time to read the whole post, but I think what Wouter is getting at with the low cost, low maintience boat is an excellent idea. I just dont think that we should be trying to convert mono sailors, if they want to switch because their friends are having way more fun on the cats then they are on the Opti's let them. But if they want to stay with the Optimist let them, but lets aim for the non-sailing chidren of non-sailing parents. That was me a few years ago, but I discovered sailing and eventually discovered the cat.......Also, I say stay away from the wave design and stick to a boat with atleast a single trap. It really doesnt add that much weight to put stays on a mast and I know that F12 sailors trapped out flying by Opti's and Lasers will certainly raise eyebrows in the mono fleets.

I don't recall anyone saying you can't have fun on a mono, but i might be wrong. I agree a new thread should be started 'F12 design and development'. Then we can avoid the arguement of monos v cats and juniors.

I've tried to keep my points as to the design, but failed miserably and started bringing the other aspects of which we shouldn't concerned about, e.g enticing the kids of monos to cats, instead of the real issue raised of getting kids to sail, for that I apologise.

Regards

I'm just guessing here, but I assume you are older than 8? <img src=

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Seriously though, I too started out 6 years ago (whooo...coming up on 7) and I can identify with the realization of what cat sailing offers. However, to an 8 year old kid, that's a lot of strings, a lot of power, and a lot of boat. More importantly, there are few kids that age sailing on these things and most 8 year olds (that I know anyway...admittedly not a whole lot of 'em) have a

pack

mentality and enjoy events where they are surrounded by a lot of other kids.

Pat,

I was ready to roll out a similar design to yours. I'm

seeing

where they're going with this and warming up to the idea. We'll see how the testing goes. We know we can always fall back on a mechanical connection. Thanks for pointing out the AL freshwater option.

Are there kids who can understand AND PRACTICE rule 14? <img src=

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Jamie,
I am so glad to hear that you took Joey to the Orange Bowl -- and for the second year! What a great experience that has to be for him.

Other cat sailor friends of ours have children who are in the monohull racing circuits, starting with Optis and then moving up through the other levels. Probably there are a number of other cat kids in the Orange Bowl that we are not even aware of.

We ARE aware of Dan and Gloria Lawrence, who were Nacra 6.0 sailors in our CABB fleet -- in fact Dan was fleet commodore. But, when their two boys got to sailing age, they gave up their own sailing and started their kids in the monohull system.

Both boys had been exposed to sailing catamarans since they were babies, but they went through the optis and are now going through the various Laser levels.

In the recent Orange Bowl Luke Lawrence finished 8th in the Full-rig Laser fleet of 38 boats, and his younger brother Eric finished 2nd in the Laser Radial fleet of 27 boats.

Apparently, they are not bored racing monohulls.

As I keep trying to convince people, it is not about the kind of boat -- for kids it is about both socializing and competing with a whole bunch of peers and having role models in your age range. And the big fleets are very exciting, regardless of how fast or slow the boats.

Again, I just don't get why so many people think kids have to be on catamarans. Doesn't make any sense to me. If I were a teenager right now, I would MUCH rather be racing a Laser Radial and trying to get as good as Paige Railey.

Mary said

This kills me and is it really true? Seems a lot of us are interested in tinkering with our boats. Granted tinkering with and building one are two completely different things, I must admit this F12 at least seems much less daunting than homebuilding a F16 or the like and hopefully at a price that wont cause divorce.

And then there's talk like this

That's an inspiring story Matt, thanks.

Pat, the only little cats that made it this far inland, over the years, were the Hobie 14 and Trac 14. Let's roll out another one!

Hi Mary, I am shocked to see this from you. Sailing is great for all. But the idea I thought was to grow cat sailing. One hull or two is exactly what it is about if bigger cat fleets is the aim. Highest target is Olympic and another cat in the mix must be the aim if people are to be gained for the two hull sport.

No trap is a great idea. It is sailing not speed that is important here. It is very possible to have a fast and exciting, high tech non trap boat.
The Laser has no trap... so is it a bad boat? You can get an Olympic medal for sailing it.....

I don't know about that, once I put my 4 kids out on the wire, that's all they wanted to do! Way back when, I raced a 505. I never wanted to drive, just get out on the wire. Eventually I swithced to cats, twin wire cats...

Did the Wave ever offer a single trap?

Image is of my old PT
1975 design. Updates bought it to a 53kg limit.
This boat has adjustable lower forward stays, usual downhauls and rotation and remote lift boards and the spars had to be aluminium and this boat could easily be 45kg with carbon.
I don't think the race is to get weight down but to get interest in a non trap one man boat because of macho attitudes to not being at extreme limits.
The fact is there are thousands of people who would rather hike out than trap and have a no trailer, manageable pocket rocket.
The beauty of this little boat was that I was happy in 30 to 35 knots. So I could always go out and get hammered.
Build it and they will come.

This is sooo true. The Windrush was 75kgs when being used as a no trailer, roof top boat.
boat sat next to car with roof rack. Boat was flipped up and over to lean against rack. Boat lifted and pushed onto rack from side. spars etc tied into tramp section.
45kg full rigged boat will end up being a 30 kg lift. That is about 70pounds.
As I have already said, the roof set up is as important as the boat.
Any car can take heaps more weight than this. I reciently moved a 70kg sheet of glass on the froof of my old Honda Accord. Two pillows on roof to take pressure and a spectra haliard jammed in the doors!

I am betting that if I introduced you to a good PT on a 25 knot day and I had a matching boat it would take a nano second of sailing for you to forget that you had no trap and decide to try to whip my butt. I would also beet that you would have a hell of a lot fun.

Agreed, the paper Tiger is a great boat and a lot of fun in a breese. You don't need a trap to enjoy yourself thoroughly.

I built one with my eldest son when he was around 12. He was a bit young for it and could only use it in very light conditions.

Actually it was after this project the I decided it would be handy to have a 12ft super easy to rig boat for youngserts 7 to about 14.

Click on the link and it should lead to some pics of the process.

Building a Paper Tiger

What a great thing to do with your boy!
Ron Given designed this as a home build which could be made from one piece of plywood. It went on to become a much loved boat in Aussie and the States as well as NZ.
When the Hobie 14, Wiindrush 14 and the rest are nose divng and pitchpolling this little warrior is banging on.
Thank God for wind.

One piece of ply?

We can use the building concept of this paper tiger to get a rather simple but modern looking F12 hull. Not torturing of ply involved, just bending flat plates in one direction.

I'll try to give a summary of my idea this evening.

The following picture should be enough for some to understand what I mean.

Blue is the stern frame, red is a frame very close to the bow, black is a midframe. In each corner (between two sheets) there is a stringer to which the panels are attached. Lets say they are screwed and glued to these, were the screws both act as fastener and glue clamps. All panels are curved (bend) perpendicular to their own plane given them stiffness and they are saturated with epoxy. The bow itself with a something like a vertical

stringer

to hold the two side panels.

The things I'm after with this are :

-1- simple hull contruction using a frame jig with stringer over which flat plates are folded and fitted

-2- some planing potential as Phill once mentioned to me that he felt the paper tiger could plane. Both designs use the seem V-ed keel setup.

-3- A modern outline of the hull when viewed from the side. Because of the tumblehom of the sides the bow will have a wave-piercer look.

-4- The keel line is fat while the tumblehome will make the decks narrow. In effect we have copied the volume distribution of the wave-piercers in a rather crude way, but this succes modern distribution is there nevertheless.

-5- having a rather vertical hull so that the hull will track without the need for daggerboards or skegs.

-6- Keeping the hull small while having enough bouyancy. Especially keeping the wetted area small for the bouyancy designed into it. V-ed hulls aren't very efficient here.

Wouter

Was out yesterday saw a paper tiger with a adult & three kids on it all boys between 7-10 years old they were up at tea gardens with a pod of dolphins.

It takes 100 hours to build a Paper Tiger.

This is way too long to get groups of people involved at a sailng club.
You really need to at least halve that.
I described a method on the thread started by Matt that removes most of the time consuming stuff and still gives
a good boat that can be built before the kids attention span runs out.

The method I describe would allow tasks to be allocated to kids that are simple and quick. With a sailboat materialising in front of them quick enough to keep their motivation up.

Lets face it, if you can get the kids involved in the whole process everyone will benefit.

I was particularly lucky with my son James as he has always been extremely patient. My youngest son is much closer to the norm of kids these days and would have to build the way I described.

BTW:
The next family type project will be with my youngest son and it will be an Ice Flyer (with wheels) on account of we aint got no ice.

I already like that the F12 is a Formula setup. Now one group can try Phills quick and dirty approach and see how that works while another can try a more complicate hull design.

I assume you are referring to only the hulls here, correct ?

How much time would be saved if :

-1- the F12 would not glass the panels (as was done in your PT pics), only the joints.

-2- if no centreboard cases were to be build and installed.

-3- If the deck was so narrow (in combination to being curved and multiple bulkheads) that you didn't need deck stringers. Same for the sides.

-4- no chainplates where to be installed as we'll use an unstayed rig

-5- no hull reinforcements need to be made in the bow section as there is no bridle loads

Am I correct in assuming that no set of catamaran hulls can be build under 50 hours no matter how simple the design is ? Afterall little jobs always take longer then expected.

I'm trying to look at these F12 hulls as something to be build in the way timber optimists were build. By having a series of bulkheads cut out and stood up over which to fold the panels using glue and screws. The stringers being the connecting rods between the bulkheads.

It would be very interesting to learn where most of the time is spend building the PT hulls. Maybe we can avoid that in the F12.

What if we just have 5

gunwhale

stringers (1 keel and 4 in the chines) holding together the bulkheads and just fix the panels to those. In itself that would already be a rather stiff and strong box section, correct ? Without bridles and daggerboars or even skegs this should hold.

The only reinforcements required will be the beamlandings and the stern for taking the rudders.

Couldn't we cut alot of corner here that possibly would make the PT quite a job to build.

Wouter

Sorry. I should have added,

some people on this forum excepted.

My father built a plywood boat for me when I was about 14, but it was not a sailboat, even though we were a sailing family. It was a 14-foot, planing outboard motorboat. I had more fun with that boat than I have ever had with any other boat, bar none, in my entire life. During my mid-teen years my friends and I spent our summers on that boat -- waterskiing and fishing and exploring, completely free of adult supervision. I raced on the Lightning with my father on Sundays, but the rest of the week was mine.

I know, more heresy. In the mid 1950's that was probably my version of a PWC, except that it could carry more people.

And I know y'all are going to say that if I had had a catamaran sailboat, that would have satisfied me. I doubt it. The Great Lakes in the summer are notorious for light and fluky winds -- bad for sailing but great for waterskiing.

The key is keeping kids on the water, any way you can, and apparently my father was brilliant at doing that, since both of his daughters are still sailing more than a half century later.

And the main reason we are sailing catamarans to this day is because we spent our early years (8-16) on monohulls. <img src=

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P.S. I also apologize for again interrupting the boatbuilding segment of this thread.

Wouter,
The 100 hours is for standard PT.
When James and I built we wanted to try some things a bit different. Yet produce a boat that still measaured in.

So when talking 100 hours:-
The panels are not glassed.
Only one deck stringer between the beams and centre case.
No bulkheads.
The chainplates are normally bolted on after the hulls are built.
Removing the centre case will save maybe 3 or 4 hours.

Keep it simple.

Ehh no, I won't say that.

I will say however that it would have satisfied ME !

There you have one counter example already.

As some other poster noted earlier. It is not about convincing 299 million people in the USA who rather be on motorboats like Mary. It is about reaching those 100.000 persons out there that are ready to be convinced. And even if 80.000 of those prefer to sail 3500 USD a pop optimist bathtubes then that still leaves us 20.000 potential F12 sailors.

This is a time to say

Can Do !

Wouter

Mary,
Are you saying that we should just support the mono hull programs and give the concept of a simple 12ft cat a miss?