F12 design and development

Looking at the sketch you provided:

Where the panels join at the bow and along the chine each side, there is undoubtedly twisting of the panel(s). The same could be at the stern but it is difficult to tell from a sketch like this.

The sketch is exacerrated at the stern to show the make up but truly all panels are flat in the real life application with the exception of being bend in one plane.

If you bend two non parrellel panels in their own planes and have them intersect with eachother then the resulting intersection line (the chine) will be curved in two planes. Because this line HAS to lay in both planes ! But each plane itself is still only bend in one plane and therefor not stressed into to compound curve (? right word for it ?)

Do this mind experiement.

Use a flat plat to make yourself a cone. Cut the of at a right angle so the cone is like a round pyramid shape. Now intersect the cone s little below the top with a flat surface. You end up with a circle as a crossectional shape. Now bend this top plate and again make its intersection with the cone. Now the crosssection will be an round but irregular shape. It will not be an ellips although it will appear to be one. No just rotate the top plate. The crossection and chine will be curved and angles in more then one direction but the shape and chine are still the result of only two flat panels bend in only one plane.

My point ? It is extremely hard to tell from chines or crossectional shape whether a shape is made out of the intersection of flat plates bend in only one direction or by stressed plates bend in more then one direction.

Wouter

If it's a boat for kids it needs to look like a boat for kids. There is a reason why things look like they're made for kids when, in fact, they are. An opti doesn't exactly look like a modern high performance speedster.

This is, of course, if you aren't expecting to market the boat to adults unless you expect to first sell to the adult in order to get them to build it for the kid, and then you've created the same circle we're in now.

65 kg (143 lbs) crew is a rather developed

kid

, maybe claasified as a young adult? The boat can also appeal to an adult. Could also be two 32.5 kg kids, or there abouts.

Paint scheme can make the kiddy look. Looking at the photos of the Cadet's, some looked like Dad trying to make a

proper

boat and then there was this one Demon

true...
One could just get brett to build lots more hulls...

Another 12 footer that could be reconditioned is the kittycat..

Another idea non flexable pvc tube... Such as used in electrical cabling..
Its cheap...

The design stuff coming from the group of guys working on it is impressive. (I'm learning a lot)
I'm concerned that you haven't identified the:
What
Why
How
and When
very clearly yet.
Your doing well with the How , but the what and why has been
skimmed over. (IMO)

There is nothing more difficult than designing something simple.
I know it's in design stage but there has been discussion about differant rudder assemblies, differant size sails,larger hulls for bigger guys and I think the word carbon was even used.
This sounds like a broad based formula that may not fit into the What .(your really trying to do)

Are you trying to prove you can design a new simple boat or increase the number of youth sailors? ? ?

I know from doing a lot of project management that keeping a group of engineers on point can be like hearding cats.
I get the feeling that Flatlander(John) the customer in my mind and Wouter, the engineer are not on the same page.

We really don't need a 10 boat world wide F12 class.
It also seems there is a lot more interest from abroad than in the USA.

Just my opionions and observations, Nothing personal.

As for the why, you might need to read back to the beginning of this thread.... But most people posting in this thread see a need for something that is different from what is being offered for sale as a way of enabling youth participation.

I for one, as an American, have been looking for something like this for awhile in the interest of enabling youth participation. I believe the ability to home build it as very important because:

1) I think you can come up with a better boat for the purpose.
2) the creation of the boat between the parents/clubs and young sailors will help get them into it.
3) It does not have to economically viable for a company to produce it.

The last part is the important part - this means the design can live on, and people can have one or many in the future long after any company may have given up trying to make a profit and killed it. And, if there are only 10 boats in the world so what. Hopefully those 10 boats are being put to good use - maybe they exist only in one club, but then I'd say the mission is still accomplished. If at some point in the future another club builds 10 more, and then it takes off in a region, well, who knows. If it never becomes a racing class but a handful of families build them for their kids, mission is still accomplished.

Point is, I don't see that happening with any of the current boats available from a manufacturer, new or used, at least for the racing part. This has been an interesting exercise if for no other reason than some of us have been exposed to small buildable cat classes we didn't even know existed. If this fails, I've seen enough that I would try one of those designs for a youth program.

Agree on the need to keep it simple and reduce the exotic materials as much as possible. But, in some cases it might make things easier and cheaper, so the use/elimination should be considered wisely.

For the general thread:
On the needs to look like a toy thing - I think this goes both ways. You may want a toy look for the really young, but once other boats start to look

hot

the toy look will work against you. I agree with the idea that the paint job can suffice for the toy look for the young. Go for a platform that looks good as racey boat, not a toy. Apply paint schemes to make it enticing to the Spongebob set.

On sails - I believe something like this can be done such that a simpler smaller rig goes for the younger kids, and for the older kids a more powerful and interesting rig to keep them going. The same platform should suffice for both.

On the bows - the overriding factor here should be what is considered safer for the purpose of the boats - kids. If parents think that a potentially higher speed boat with a pointy end might endanger children who haven't learned the finer points of boat control, well, adoption of the boat may suffer. Those of us who have put kids into sailing programs can enlighten us as to what the prevailing mind sets are...

Just my thoughts...

If you build it they will come. <img src=

alt=

/>

Seriously, my nephew-in-law races Highlanders and has several grand-children getting up towards first sailing lesson age. I'm definitely going to keep him abreast of this as it evolves. To me, it would be a great to have something like this if you have young ones you want to get into the sailing.

I'm structuring the project as we speak as I too felt like the project was potentially going off in too many direction.

The vision I have for this F12 is as such :

First your points :

What ?

A good looking sailboat for lightweight crews 45 - 75 kg (optimized for 65 kg) that has its main focus on being really easy and quick to rig and de-rig (incl. transport) for a budget of at max 3000 US$ but preferably less. (Vanguard optimist is 2550 USD)

Within these limits, I'm trying to get maximal performance out of the design and it looks like that is developping rather well.

NOTE : IT IS NOT A PURE KIDDIES BOAT ! More on this later.

====

Why ?

So responsible older children, teenagers and the smaller adults can sail a high performance sail boat that is really fun to sail in these

instant thrill seeking / no hassle

times but that can also be a ladder to truly performant boats like the A-cat's, F16's, F18's, and Tornado's although the last is not a major consideration in itself. With this I want to have a good tool to build up a more young participation in sailing and get kids aways from TV's, computers and obesity by showing that actually doing something in real life is more fun then simulating such a life by a computer game or TV.

The second reason is to give active adult sailors like myself an enjoyable sailboat for the little hours of free time that are too small to rig our normal boats. Like evenings or the two hours before wife wants to go to your in-laws.

The real youngsters are best served by something like an optimist.

====

How ?

But combining all the smart idea's found on other sailcraft (like landyachts and skiffs) to cut down on complexity and cost while keeping impressive performance.

Sadly this is something no builder like Hobie or nacra is doing. They pretty much only scale down a large racing beach cat to 14 or 12 feet and make it out of rubber. That is neither inexpensive, not simple or performant.

But also by having a design of which by far most items can be home-build. This will cut down on operating cost but also will be another life experience for those who decide to go down this route. For several of us like myself it means we can have such a small boat on the side very cheaply by using components of our larger cats. This requires a formula setup.

Also the formula setup allows these adults to make a hull that will carry their weight reasonably well without having the lightweight crews forced to sail hulls that bounce over the water with each wave. Therefor different hulls for different crews => formula setup. will equalize racing between these crew better as well.

===

and When

That is a good question.

I've just come to the realisation that while I personally have the capacity to do jobs with respect to developping this F12 I don't have the time to do it nor the resources to make this a proper launch. Afterall I still have responsibilities in other area's. And because this design needs all the smart stuff of other design/boats it is pretty much a fundamental conflict if one or two persons need to investigate and cover all things.

I want this design to be prototyped this summer at the latest and have 90 % of the development completed by summer 2008 when the final FORMULA class rules will have to be fixed. And at that time I want a serious launch of the class, but those are details I'l cover later. There is absolutely no way 1 or 2 persons can do this. So we need all interested persons to contribute what they can. Often not so much in hard core design work but in making 3D technical drawings, testting setups, gethering info on materials and availability in local area's. And I'm begging for a person to build us a website and a wiki. Alot of it is fun stuff, the truly boring math and such can be done by myself and another person.

Large parts of the design are already in such a state that imaging, testing and develloping can start.

So

when ?

Is now

When finished ?

dependent on the help we get.

I'm working out a document detailing this all tonigh and will post it so you can all read it and comment on it.

Wouter

Wouter,

a protest on the

The real youngsters are best served by something like an optimist.

.
The Optimist is too hard to handle for the real youngsters alone. They would be much happier with a friend (or friend to be) to share the experience. A boat with more directional stability would make things a lot easier during launch. This is the experience from watching our clubs Optimist program.

Pat,

Hey, I'm not complaining. Going back to my first post in the Youth thread asking

May we spend some time talking about developing this?

above the image of the F12 concept, to where this is at right now? Wow!
And my nature is, with some engineering background, to think out loud and ask questions. And in that regard this forum is awesome in affording everyone from around the world to throw in their tidbit for concideration.

On the what, why and other than that, what Keith said. <img src=

alt=

/>

This has been said a few times.
Aside from Field of Dreams, I would like to know when it really worked.
I don't ask the questions because I don't want it to work, I ask because I would like it to work.

Our Fleet is arguably the most successful in the country.
We were told that our little Oneida Lake could never handle a National event. We have had many since then along with the largest Cat race in the country last year.

I say this because we also have the resources (People, Facilities, and Know how) to build a lot of these things in a hurry if it makes sense. I have been on the can-do side of things every time. I could probably build most of it with what's in my garage.

The questions still need to be asked.( I have read every post and have learned a lot)
Is having 10 boats really a success. Not to me, especially if their being built by sailors for kids that are sailors already.
We need a bigger pie.

Some of the greatest products ever designed never took off while marginal ones flourished and made people very wealthy.
Why? Sales and Marketing (You really need to look at Hobie here, if not, you haven't really done your How homework).
Good product, Sales and Marketing. Results don't lie.
There must be Design, Ability to Produce, Marketing and ultimately Sales(in this case building and the use of the boat by NEW sailors).

Remember: This all started with

Youth recreation trend

and how to get more NEW youth sailing.
It's hard to stay on point.

This is at the brain storm phase and I would suggest going back to the What, Why, How on a regular basis to see if your doing what you set out to do.

Wordy disclaimer here

Formula 16 and a score of other Australian cat designs.

The moth class has largely been a homebuilders class for decades.

Weren't a lot of tornado's build in ply back in the days.

How did the optimist start ? TIMBER !

I can tell you right now that more of these timbers boats were homebuild then Hobie ever sells in the way of rotomoulded products. The mosquito design alone (now part of F16) was homebuild a couple of thousant times.

And there were more F16's in the last (200 boat) cat event that I went to then Hobie 16's

Now can we PLEASE get of the

HOBIE

bandwagon ? It is like a persistant and gusty crosswind when driving on the freeway of thought.

Besides I think that I can claim some promo and sales skills. That Hobie wave (and let alone the hobie twixxy tuddler doddly humpy dumpy and whatever name they think of next.) is still waaaaaaay behind world status with respect to the F16's.

Now I REALLY don't want to discuss F16's or

I did this ...

or

they didn't do that ...

So lets leave

Hobie

out of the discussion please and focus fully on the F12 and just MAKE it work.

Sooo, who I volunteering for some work ?

Pbisesi ? Can we invite you to do some analysis work on how such a boat can be build by a group of amateurs at a sail club. This mostly with respect to hulls and sails the other points have al pretty much been covered. What would be too hard for such a group, space confinements, available tooling etc.

Wouter

Noted Rolf,

Thanks.

LOL! Now that's poetic! <img src=

alt=

/>

I think you missed the point.
Replace Hobie with Coke, Pepsi, Kleenex, Band Aid etc..

Refusing to at least recognize the success of what Hobie(or any brand above) has done regardless of how you feel about the company, product or the class association is missing an opportunity to learn things that could help you.
Success leaves clues.

Yes, I'm missing something. What are you suggesting, look for a Coleman Industries to market and back it? Is what is happening here going on in the wrong way? Should someone walk into XYZ corporation with conceptual drawings, a sales pitch and a

trust me

?

Analogy to the music industry, no big labels will spend any money in developing new talent. Why? They can let the crillions of micro labels develop them and attempt to sign proven, successful acts with no development cost to them.

Opposed to 30 years ago, it seems the same applies here. Mr. Alter had an idea and then he built it, right? And you can say the rest is history, which leads us to today. Is this

concept

earth shattering? No. Is it drawing some interest? Yes. Will it be successful, on the level of the H14/H16? Who knows.

Thank you for all the efforts ladies and gentlemen and pardon my ignorance.

Pat's simply saying that if you guys want to achieve a goal, figure out what goal it is because you're all over the place. I didn't read one line of Hobie-centrism in any of Pat's posts - only advise that's used in the majority of any kind of product development. If you guys are just having fun coming up with something, that's one thing...but this project was started under the premise that youth sailing on catamarans, particularly outside of the tight-knit sailing community, is largely non-existent and you wanted to do something about it. HOW are you doing something about it? HOW does this boat apply? HOW should it be designed to meet that goal? so on and so forth. Without some sort of unanimous direction this will end up with a 10 boat rotting fleet...not that there's anything wrong with that if that is all you are after.

John
What I mean is that people have to spread the word outside the current sailing community.
Hobie took off in large part from the Life magazine article and Hollywood movie placements. Bo Derek and such.
(Deep breath Wout, trying to learn here)
Having all this information here or even on it's own website is not nearly enough.
Someone like you will have to go to a local venue such as a yacht club or even a town or state park and pitch the idea to have a sailing program for kids.
You will need a team of people to build maybe 6 boats.
There would need to be some advertising in newsletters, websites and local papers that there is a sailing program available for kids.
Our town holds Parks and Rec for the kids in the summer for a small fee.
These are a bunch of kids that have no idea about sailing that could be introduced and hooked. You could then let the parents know that the plans for the boats are available and maybe have a how to work shop for dads that may have all the tools and ability already to build a boat for his kid that has never turned on a computer.
There are some sail schools at lakes near us, but they are expensive and only known to club members.
Design and building is the easy part. Manpower and marketing to make it successful will be difficult.

PS: Jake got the point

Wouter: How about a break down of the 200 boats and how you did.
Do you have home build numbers vs. factory boats that can be confirmed? That would be interesting.

If you see an issue that isn't getting the attention it should then join the group and work it out.

Currently, all you guys are doing is giving

DUH-advice

to others who are doing actual design work.

Pardon my French here, but there are a few

somebodies

involved with this F12 project. Several of us have pretty significant cat projects under our belts. And while we would welcome any help from you in actual design or analysis work, we will welcome it even more if you guys quit dispensing any more

advice

that our own 90 year old and fence sitting grandfathers would come up with.

Wouter

And yet the simple question about

what is this project targeting?

goes unanswered and the name calling and insults have begun. To answer the first sentence of your post, I think this question is a big issue that is not being addressed - so it was raised. I missed the part about official group membership though. If you can't handle public comments, you might reconsider doing this in a public forum.

Would you listen to the advice your 90 year old grandfather would give you?

SHITE !! I just realised, I AM MY 90 YEAR OLD GRAND FATHER.

Jake,

How about look 13 posts up and see your question anwered.

I'm truly sorry that in this storm of discussion and design work I've only been able to publically log 2/3's of all content. This thread is only 7 days old already I have over 100 pages of information, drag plots, hull shapes, bouyancy calcs when hit bu a gust and what not.

We are in the design phase right now because it is pointless to go up to a local authority with only a sales pitch but no substance. Not because we don't understand how this works.

Other boats at this time are waaay to expensive to build a youth program on. The boats that are inexpensive enough like the optimist are not that well suited to this role according to comments by for example Rolf and Phill who run youth programs in their area. Before you start on a job you look for the right tool to use. F12 is the tool that many of us have felt missing for a long time.

Are we wrong in this assessment ? We can be, but you guys are just kicking in open doors.

You are not telling us anything we don't know already or know to be false. Nobody is helped by that. As and you guys don't appear to be doing any of this yourselfs, can we then ask that you don't frustrate this effort. For nobody can predict whether this will eventuall work or don't work. But anyone can predict with absolute certainty that it won't work if you are succesful in derailing it.

Hell, if I had a dollar for each time I was told that F16 would never work ..... !

Wouter

Hi All

Have to say, I agree with Wouter <img src=

alt=

/>, its not as though theres 50 of these boats being built to 'rot' away in backyards if it doesn't take off, not saying that necessarily happens if a class doesn't become a 100 boat class.

I would much rather go outside build an idea to see if it works or not, rather than putting it all on paper and telling everyone it does. This planning stage and the building of one or two or three boats, needs to happen.

Everyones got their own ideas on how this cat should or could be built and rigged, but the fact remains you need to build one and try it, if it doesn't meet the ease of build, ease of sailing, ease of transport, or some sort of problem becomes evident, it can be altered to bring it into line, without having to bring 6 or 10 or 20 of them in line.

I've made myself 3 stainless mast bases for my boat over probably a 3 week period, to fine tune its design, so when I do fix it to the mast, I don't have to remove it and start again after one sail.

Now, please, we all know how hard it is for me to agree with Wouter, lets not make a habit of it <img src=

alt=

/> <img src=

alt=

/>
(take that with humour please Wouter)

Regards

This is a worthy “project”, and to me illustrates, more than anything else, a cumulative vocalised realisation by more people than I have seen in the past, willing to focus on the fundamental problem in cat sailing over the last thirty years, that youth numbers sailing cats have been reducing at an alarming rate. To the point that at the moment it is very difficult to see any cat being sailed by anyone under the age of 40 in the foreseeable future. There have been many “reasons” enunciated as to why this has, is, and probably will continue to occur in the future, but none of these “reasons” have really helped to reverse this trend in a practical sense.
What we are seeing here is, at least a positive attempt to offer up a real practical alternative. There are a lot of varying “points of view” as to exactly how to proceed, but proceed you must. If any (or many) designs are developed from out of this discussion, (and not just further discussion), then there is the possibility of success. The first step is to design and build a cat, iron out any eccentricities, whether they are in the construction, the material supply, the building techniques, the cost, or the sailing characteristics, and then, when it is ready. And only when it is ready, present it to its potential market.
If ALL future difficulties that MAY arise with marketing, promotion and publicity, mass manufacture, export, and all the other myriad of problems that exist within the commercial world that are involved in operation a successful business were brought into consideration and applied at the planning stage of any actual embryonic project (like this one), then I don’t think any idea would ever “get off the ground”, it would all seem to be “just to hard”. So put simply, first steps first and don’t worry about that second step until the first is finished (or else you could stumble on the first)

too much popcorn - and you will look like Robi's avatar (he he he)

From what I've seen there is no doubt the boat can be built.
Doesn't seem that difficult.
I was simply trying to talk about what is ahead if it is to be a success and do what it was designed to do.
That is to promote youth sailing as I see it.(or is it for designers to impress themselves?)
To say you couldn't start talking to people right now about running a youth sailing program is just wrong.
Worst case you could use old $1000 or donated boats.
They could even be Hobies. (God Forbid)

Hi Pat

Well the way I see it, and I'm not being disrespectful in anyway, thats probably worthy of another thread, Youth Sailing Programs or Youth Marketing. I do see totally were your coming from, let that be clear. But I started this thread as to not get into the nitty gritty of promotion, or programs, cause thats where the other thread was heading. Its more so designs could be looked at, discussed and ideas floated as to the designs.

Regards