Mary
You wrote
I would like something much slower and more
primitive."...that is what you want...but what do your grandchildern want? they have been watching people surf 60 foot waves, jump 35 feet in the air doing loops with motorcross bikes, riding down the side of a mountains on a bycicle, doing 720's on skateboards and all matter of exteme sports, will that mini Wharram design get them excited enough to want to sail? or will they gravitate to something that looks a lot more like the latest and greatest that the adults are sailing?
Regards,
Bob
doing loops
The views that I express reflect the wants of both my daughter and her children. Just my local market research. <img src=
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Where would kids see catamarans sailing, anyway, to even know what looks fast and exciting? Probably 95 percent of the kids in this country have never even seen a catamaran -- except for maybe a Wave or a Getaway in commercials on TV for a split second. <img src=
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Where would kids see catamarans sailing, anyway, to even know what looks fast and exciting? Probably 95 percent of the kids in this country have never even seen a catamaran -- except for maybe a Wave or a Getaway in commercials on TV for a split second.
All these other sports have been actively courting the youth on TV for years...the catamaran industry is not even on their radar.
You don't need any knowledge about catamarans to tell the difference between a A2 VS wave or the difference between a Blade VS Getaway...besides the obvious difference in appearance...even the name of the rotomolded boats sound like something a grandmother would pick...LOL...no disrespect...LOL
Regards,
Bob
Bob,
I think it is in the eye and mind of the beholder. When I look at a Wharram sailboat, I see character and romance and adventure and pirates and visions of south sea islands.
When I look at a modern A cat, I just see a machine, devoid of personality.
I think young children are more likely to see things the way I do. But I can only speak for the children I know. <img src=
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I guess the only way to find out is to do a worldwide survey where you give young children pictures of various sailboat styles and ask them which one they like best. <img src=
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Mary...ask any boy over the age of 4 which he would rather have, a boat called a
Blade
or a boat called a
Getaway
and see which one he picks...even if he doesn't know what either one looks like...LOL
When (I) look at a modern A cat, (I) just see a machine, devoid of personality.
(I) think young children are more likely to see things the way (I) do. But I can only speak for the children (I) know.
If I didn't know better... <img src=
alt=
/>I would have to say you were trying to live vicariously thru your grandchildren? <img src=
alt=
/>... LOL...
Furthermore, If boats have personalities (which they do) the A2 has to be a
Super Model
in a sea of plan Janes... <img src=
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/> and the rotomold boats are the ugly betties <img src=
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Regards,
Bob
Why would I have to live
vicariously
through anyone? I have been sailing all my life, and still am.
If my grandchildren would rather play golf, I couldn't care less. But thank you for thinking that I care what sports my grandchildren pursue.
Why would I have to live
vicariously
through anyone? I have been sailing all my life, and still am.
Mary...It wasn't meant to be a serious comment... <img src=
alt=
/>I was hoping that you would realize my intent by the use of all the smiles and grins... <img src=
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Regards,
Bob
I don't trust smiles and grins. They are often used to mask what the person truly means or thinks.
In the case of my grandchildren it is totally untrue, though. They are immersed in all the traditional team sports, and I think that's great.
They live only blocks from Lake Erie, but to get a boat down the stairs to the beach would be difficult unless it was very small and light, so my daughter and the children could carry it.
We ARE talking about basically a
toy
boat for kids to play around on and get them interested in sailing when they go to the beach with an onshore wind.
I still don't see any conflict with Wouter's design for the older and more experienced youth sailors. <img src=
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Blade
or a boat called a
Getaway
and see which one he picks...even if he doesn't know what either one looks like
I would think his answer would depend upon whether he was thinking about running away from home at the time. <img src=
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You did not explain why you don't think it makes sense to have two divisions of Formula 12, low-performance and high-performance.
You could concentrate on the high-performance aspect, like your F12 (which might become F12X), and somebody else could concentrate on the low-performance boats for the younger kids.
Your talents are much better suited to the high-performance end of the picture.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the formula concept here.
Would it not allow a boat to be built of straight ply sheets and a very simplistic method, and also allow a tortured ply design, as well as a manufacutred boat of frp or twintex or roto-mold plastic?
Would it not allow any sail up to a certain maximum size?
Isn't the fact that the 3.66m boat may be capable of taking off like a skinned cat, with a 7 year old alone at the stick, be offset by the fact that Mom or G'ma may accompany them until they feel comfortable sailing alone? Or be capable of two small friends/siblings together or alone with a smaller sail?
Seems like creating a boat capable of a broader range of payload is the smart thing to do. It's much easier to dumb down performance.
If two divisions with age and/or weight limitations are advantageous for the class, can this be accomplished by limiting sail size and leave the hulls alone? Doesn't Laser do this?
From the preliminary target of 55kg the weight has increased less than 20 pounds and probably not significantly impacted by another 20" of hull. Besides, wont yours have handles at all four corners, for going up and down the stairs?
John you raise a good point…just because the Maximum Length is set at 12’-10” wouldn’t have stopped anyone from building a boat 12’-0” long if that fit their personal goals.
I totally fail to understand why this is such a point of contention. Bill Roberts tried to tell us for years that you design a boat based on the numbers…not some arbitrary preconceived idea…apparently he got tired of beating his head against the wall since I haven’t seen him post in quite some time.
We had a chance to birth a new class that everyone said they wanted but seem we have self-destructed over the fact that an engineer ran the calculations and the numbers said that a much more efficient and useful design could be constructed if lengthened by just 10 inches … while keeping all the important primary objectives of cost, ease of construction, and light weight. It amazes me how many people just flatly ignore that the laws of physics exist…
Regards,
Bob
The reason it is a point of contention is that there are two completely different philosophies about what is needed for the youth sailors in the age range from 8-14.
That is why it makes sense to have two divisions within the Formula 12 class.
There is no reason for the class to self-destruct before it begns. And there is no reason for the F12 high-performance boat that Wouter is proposing to self-destruct. Why can't everybody compromise and allow the two divisions within the class (if there is a class), so everybody will be happy?
The cynical answer is that it's not a god class unless everybody are reasonably _un_happy about the rules. If everybody is happy, it will fizzle and die. (I'll not use any
smileys
, as you dont trust them anyway)
Splitting a class from the outset is a poor idea in my opinion. No kid would want to sail the
un(der)powered
version once they figured out that it gave more status to sail the
(over)powered
version. At least that is my experience.
Bob, the
Formula 12
class is not dead. It just lies dormant until some designs are buildt. The idea (and the demand) is there, so just give it some time. If the class is not up and going in six years (when our youngest become 8), I'll build three boats myself and donate to the club if I can entice her to start sailing. But I would definatly build sails from dacron and put a mast float on so the kids could play with the things. I would also homebuild rudders/rudderstocks/sails and use cheap materials so it would not cost much..
The
Formula 12
class just need some boats to hit the water, but most of the usual suspects for homebuilding/prototyping are busy with other projects.
All this started in the extremely popular
Youth Recreation Trend
thread on the Open Forum. It was really very exciting, because people were talking about a very simple, inexpensive, lightweight, cartoppable boat, that anybody can build in their garage, to introduce young children (ages 7-12) to catamarans.
And then the idea of a Formula 12 class came up. I assumed this meant the boats in that class would be 12 feet or less.
And then the discussion turned to a design for a specific boat that would be called an F12.
And the next thing you know, it turned out that the specific boat was actually going to be almost 13 feet long and will be as fast as Hobie 16's. And it is going to cost supposedly $3,000 even if you build it yourself? Whoa!
Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this picture?
Doesn't this totally defeat the purpose of starting a Formula 12 class, which was to keep the designs small and simple and light and home-buildable and inexpensive and relatively SLOW for the benefit of kids who have never even been on a sailboat before? And also inspire people to design and build their own boats within the Formula 12 parameters, if they ever happen?
Isn't the Formula 12 for kids supposed to be an alternative to the Optimist Dinghy? THAT is the competition (not the Hobie 16). And, obviously, any cat, no matter how primitive, is going to be faster and more fun than the Opti.
I am retracting my suggestion about a separate division for boats longer than 12 feet. Forget it. What was I thinking?? If there is going to be a Formula 12 class, it should be for boats at maximum 12 feet long, period.
It is pretty obvious, from the existing 12-footers in Australia, that it is possible to build good-performing boats within that length. If somebody wants to build a longer boat that is a lot faster, fine, but it should not be a Formula 12. And a Formula 12 Class should not be formed at all unless it has an upper parameter of 12-feet for length.
This is just my own opinion, of course. <img src=
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P.S. If you want to review the Youth Receation Trend thread on the Open Forum, I have brought it back up to the top.
Mary,
does it matter so much wether the boat is 12feet or 12feet 10 inches when few of the other formula classes adhere to the same logic? For me it dont matter much, but if it will be a better boat with 12'10
, then it sounds logical to choose the longer one.
What matters for me is the price of participating (building), handling (on/off cars, rigging AND sailing) and safety.
From what I have seen of the discussion, it should be possible to build such a boat for a lot less than US$3000 if you dont buy professionally made sails, trampolines and rudders. Homebuild might be almost as good (or better in some cases) and a lot cheaper. The loads on this boat is probably small enough to allow for ply/glass rudder construction.
I dont think further discussion will bring further positive elements forth. It's time to finish some designs and build them. But the usual ply
torturers" are busy with other projects. Perhaps Tad (Maughan) can be enticed to produce a prototype as he expressed interest. Or perhaps you could consider trying your hand with some boatbuilding? Building tramps and a sail would be a good project to test your new sewing machine. Stitch and glue building is fast and something everybody can do with reasonable results.
It does not matter what length of boat anybody designs and builds. All I am saying is that it does not make sense to create a Formula 12 class if you are not going to limit it to boats that are 12 feet or less.
Maybe a Formula 12 class is not needed at all. And that is probably the case.
I just don't want to see somebody create one that is for boats up to 13 feet long. That is like saying that for a Haiku poem it is okay to have 10 syllables in the second line.
What does the name of the beast matter? Getting some of these boats on the water is the important point at this stage.
Would you build one of these (at 12 feet) if you got a set of plans and a building description? I will, but not yet, as there is an F-16 brewing there..
To be a bit on-topic. I definately think it should be a formula class, not OD or SMOD. That way homebuilding and affordability will be a possibility wherever the 'class' might decide to go.
Would you build one of these (at 12 feet) if you got a set of plans and a building description? I will, but not yet, as there is an F-16 brewing there..
To be a bit on-topic. I definately think it should be a formula class, not OD or SMOD. That way homebuilding and affordability will be a possibility wherever the 'class' might decide to go.
Exactly! But only if it is a 12-foot formula class. The smaller the boat, the greater the differences are with only small increments in length.
12'10" is a HUGE difference from 12'. No comparison in terms of performance and speed.
And, yes, I WILL try to build a boat if Phill is right about his simpler design, He said,
The magic in this is not in the refined hull shape but the method of construction, time involved and cost.
I think this boat will still give the newcomers what they need to get hooked.
THIS idea is exciting, at least to me.
Hey, I have an idea. For the F12 Class I have this great design that can be home built and the first design was conceived in 1968.
It can be made of plywood at home. You can make your own sails and all.
And it is only 20 Ft long -- The Tornado. Heck it is only 8 ft longer than the 12' limit, but is is faster and can beat a Hobie 16.
Kids will love it!
No untrustworthy Graemlins from me!
Rick
Yeah, sarcasm is surely much more descriptive than the graemlins. Hard to miss out on that.
BTW: Tornado was designed in the autumn of 1967, not 1968. You should know..
What _IS_ this obsession with the length about? Make it 10 feet for all I care, but this is getting ridiculous. I tought the goal for the design was cheap, homebuildable, easily transported and FUN FUN FUN. This bickering over 10 inches of hull length is tearing the whole thing apart and I dont see any reason whatsoever for the hard positions. Is there some kind of hidden agenda or what?
Is there some kind of hidden agenda or what?
Okay, here's the agenda: if you are going to have a Formula 12'10" class, then I think it would be appropriate to grandfather in the Hobie Wave, which is only 2 inches longer.
If the performance is relatively similar, I dont see why not? I am pretty pragmatic about it, and better to be inclusive than divisive. It is in the same 'class/type' of boat, but I dont see it on top of a car or singlehanded by 8-10 years?
BTW: I dont consider it
my
class. I just think the F-12 too good to fizzle over this matter.
Okay, here's the agenda: if you are going to have a Formula 12'10
class, then I think it would be appropriate to grandfather in the Hobie Wave, which is only 2 inches longer
If that is the root of the problem, it would have been helpful if it had been brought up in the beginning of the discussion. The F16 Class
grandfathered
in boats that did not meet the strict criteria, some compromise might have been reached early on concerning this matter.
So if I read between the lines correctly, the disagreement over the 12' Vs the 12'-10
issue was just a ploy to keep the F12 performance level sub par when compared to the Hobie Wave. Insuring it would never be a serious threat to the Wave on the race course… There by protecting the established Wave one design class, and eliminating the threat of a F12 class that could offer a higher performance, less expensive alternative.
Bob
Wow, Bob, I never even thought of all that. Brilliant!
Actually, guys, I was just kidding about the Wave, because it would be ridiculous to have a 13-foot boat in a 12-foot formula class. Almost as ridiculous as a 12'10" boat.
Right.., If it is to be named
Formula 12 Class
then it should be 12' or under. Otherwise, you could simply name it the
Formula 13 Class!
Hmmm! or would that be an unlucky number and destroy the class? <img src=
alt=
/>
Or, heck, name it
George
but at least name it something it represents.
BY the way, The Wave at 13' with a bowsprit and roller furling Hooter is almost as fast as the H16. Add a trapeze and two kids would have a ball on a very substantial, bullet-proof, and very buoyant craft.
Check it out at http:/
Rick
I have got an even better idea. Why not go after the F-16 class, with their 16'4
length, or the F-18 with their 18'1
length? Excuse me, but you seem a bit obsessive on the length question. Especially at this rather tender stage. Call it
Project George
and lets move on, or at least use arguments that mean something. There is nothing except some marketing in a name, but arguments like weight, speed, building process etc. really matters.
I'll repeat what I see as the primary goal of
the class
targeting 8-14 year olds:
formula 3.9 [color:
red
] F3.9 [color:
blue
]Formula3.9 [color:
orange
]f3dot9
F3.9 Hell why not call it an F4, it'll be faster still and be able to take more weight than an F3.9, or maybe an F4.1, better still F4.2, or just maybe ......
Gareth
I'll repeat what I see as the primary goal of
the class
targeting 8-14 year olds:
cheap, homebuildable, easily transported and FUN FUN FUN.
Unfortunately, the focus of a Formula 12 class is something that was never resolved, at least as far as I could tell, and there still seems to be a big division of opinions as to what the target market is and what kind of boat would best serve it.
There was a great deal of discussion about it on the Open Forum, but that all stopped when the Formula 12 Forum was opened. So I still feel kind of up in the air as to the goals and purpose of a Formula 12 class.
I was envisioning it for ages 7-12. I see Wouter's boat as more for ages 13-18 and adult, as well.
I envision a fairly slow, cute boat that tacks well.
Wouter's boat is designed for much higher performance and has a very high-tech look. Having a large rig and a small rig is fine, but I still think it is too much boat for the little kids.
I want something that I can build very inexpensively and have fully rigged for $900 or less.
Wouter's boat, even home-built, he said will be at least $3,000, which is way out of my price range.
I want something that is so easy to build that even I can do it. Wouter's boat looks too difficult for me to tackle.
I would like to see something that could be an alternative to the Opti in club programs.
Wouter's boat looks to me like it would be an alternative to the Laser in club programs.
I guess one of the problems, too, is that there don't seem to be any mothers with young children on this forum to give some perspective on what they would want for their children. In terms of the young children, what the mothers will go for is really the key to the whole thing.
In terms of the age range I see for Wouter's boat, the kids themselves are going to have more of a say in what they would like.