Formula 14 development

Just as info.

My F12 hull has a total surface area of 5 sq. mtr. and when it is made out of 4 mm ply it will weight 17.5 kg per hull. From 5 mm thick Polyethylene it will weight at least 25 kg per hull, but probably more because of the stiffeners. Polyethylene is surprisingly flexible. They aren't calling the Dart 16's tupperware boats for nothing. The sides of the earlier versions do indeed feel alot like tupperware. Feeling the hull wobble underneath you will sailing is not a reinsureing experience.

Wouter

Wouter,
It's interesting that you feel the need.

Aaah well.......

Regards,
Phill

Wouter,

Unless you have changed your designs from the ones that you asked me to draw up for you then you might be pleased to hear that the surface area of your hull is 4.3sqm.

To be honest no-one really refers to modern rotmomoulded boats as tupperware boats anymore, rotomoulding has come on along way in recent years. Most mass produced dinghies are made this way. The computer controlled molds can do some amazing things such as creating much lighter stiffer boats by using foamed polyethylene between solid skins. They can form thicker sections locally and contain stiffening members. Although they won't be as light as ply or GRP sandwich they are much better than you are making out.

Most holiday companies and rental companies won't entertain the idea of a boat made from any other process. This

feeling the hull wobble underneath you

is just nonsense.

All the best

Gareth

bulkheads

Wouter

Gareth,
I'd be interested to learn what I can about rotomoulding.
I have another project for which I think it would probably be ideal.

Regards,
Phill

No Sorry you can't have them with the rotomoulding process. Hollow hulls only.

Start adding much more weight then as the bulkheads really do firm up the hulls.

I refer back to my point. The reason the Hobie wave and other roto stuff is soo heavy is because of the decision to go rotomoulded.

Wouter

Phill I sent you an email last week about rotomoulding if you need to know more email me at gareth(at)fourhulls.com

All the best

Gareth

We already have two very nice [if I say so myself] 14ft cats in the 430 and the AO. The problem is not so much with the length, [12ft or 14ft makes little difference], but with functionality. In this regard, weight and sail area are more critical. What is more desirable, a 12ft roto moulded heavy slug or a 14ft glass/resin rocket which is already available = no development costs?
These current boats could be offered with optional rigs. Say a smaller rig for entry level which can be replaced with a full size cat rig to keep pace with sailor skill levels and on going through to full blown F14 rig, all on the same platform. Has to be more appealing to the funds provider to have a boat which could be campaigned over an extended period.
We could make provision for these 'tuned down' versions in our 14ft regattas, which brings up another important point. Where will these boats be sailed other than at 14ft regattas [two only in Oz I'm aware of] or club level?
It's totally useless to make a 12ft or 14ft cat available if there's nowhere to race the things.

Cat sailors generally, are only interested in bigger boats and can't really be bothered with small cats at regattas. And it gets worse with the current trend to run only windward leeward courses for the 'formula' boats which leaves non spi boats with nowhere to race!
Small cats have always been looked on with disdain here and I don't see much happening in the near future to change that.

Berny

Except not having a multihull in the Olympics, partially as a consequence of not supporting an entry level cat.

Yep if were not bringing juniors through on cats and just poaching them off dinghys when we can, were killing off our own class
regards

Gareth,
Thankyou for the info. Sorry for not getting back to you , been rather busy.
I will get back to you for more info when I'm a bit closer to the project I have in mind.

Thanks, again.

Regards,
Phill

Entry level cat?
= Optimist or Sabot.
Every cat club should have a fleet of these.

Here it is already done and dusted and when they get off this they can go to F14.

What is it? A Hobie Thing? <img src=

alt=

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Every club should have at least some of theese F12 cats <img src=

alt=

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http://www.gust.ax/gallery/f12/08-06-25/
http://www.gust.ax/gallery/f12/08-09-25/

I have been participating to the F12 class in the way I have been building two protos on the designs of Scarecrow and Ncik. What has become quite obvious to me is that there is a need for a modern entry cat even for the adults. Many adults would like to sail the F12, but it’s a little bit to small if you are over 70 kg. The more or less max displacement of that boat is 120kg (the ready to sail platform weight just under 50 kg). The two extra feet would give the displacement needed and it would be possible for a reasonable price to homebuild a modern cat ready to sail for say around 3000USD.

And I see we have come full circle on this aspect of the F12. It is not an issue to increase the bouyancy of the hulls to carry heavier adults on a F12. Sadly, some people (but not you Gato) were very vocal about making it a kiddies class and going for even more lightweight low volume hulls.

Now they have won and split a significant customer section off the F12 class, the group that actually holds the money !

I say lets revise the F12 concept to include these adults and let go of the

just for kids

mindset once and for all !

A man shouting in the desert,

Wouter

Back to the F 14 high performance Berny / Darryl designs and attracting new sailors. I have seen a lot of new people buy an old H16 and love it until the first capsize, and then I never see them again. I think fear of capsizing is quite intimidating. Perhaps, offer a full race platform with a significantly de-powered uni rig and an optional snuffer loaded with something more like a gennaker that most any one can safely sail and learn to sail and have fun. Let them drool as the fully compliant F 14s go screaming by. At anytime they can upgrade to the fast and exciting and wet sail plan.

I’m thinking absolutely in the same direction as you, and it’s more or less what I’m going to do. Build a modern platform, but make it more easy to transport, rig and sail. As I’m doing a lot of raid sailing, camping on the tramp for the night I don’t want to swim to much. And I honestly think there are more people like me, who would like a modern platform not to difficult to sail and at a reasonable price.

or can the F12 be lengthened by say 8" and the weight increased from 50 kilos to say 60-65 to allow for a bit more buoyancy and power? The drawback of 14' is requirement of a trailer for transport.

I don't see why you can't cartop a 14 feet cat as long as you are keeping the spar at max 6,5m. The cat on my car here is a Pixie 14 and the one on the trailer is a DS12

I've found 11 to 12 ft is ideal for a child to learn to sail properly but you cant beat fun and they seem to happily leave a couple of cats on the beach and laugh all day as a group on a 14ft

I have seen kids having great fun with the F12 cats, even going out at three. It’s probably the fastest craft intended for kids. Even adults are thrilled by this cat. That is also the reason why I see a need for a little bit bigger cat intended for adults, but who don’t want to spend the money for a racing cat. As it is not the hulls who are representing the expensive part of a cat...

What is holding back the F-14 cat from taking off (as well as catamaran sailing in general)? IMHO is the obsession with racing.

When I bought my first cat in 1975...a Hobie 14...racing was the last thing on my mind...I wanted to get out on the water...go as fast as I could, play in the surf and have fun. The boat was simply a tool to have fun.

I didn't obsess with tuning the rig...I didn't loose sleep at the thought of someone building a faster cat next week which would make my resale value go down...I wasn't concerned that some rich guy would

buy the race

because he could afford a boat built out of exotic materials...or whether the next guy had a carbon mast, carbon beams, glassed in beams, canted hulls, a taller mast or wider beam....I just went out and had fun free sailing...

All the above obsessions (and more) have sucked the fun out of sailing. Go back thru these forums and read the rabid discussions about length, beam, weight, mast height, hull materials, foils etc. Look at them from the perspective of a newbie looking in from the outside...there are a lot more people attracted at the prospect of having fun than there are

winning

a race.

Best Regards,
Bob

I agree completely whit you, we can just hope that the people thinking of a cat just for fun are not scanning this or any other forum with a related topic.
Still I understand the discussion here because here those who are most interested in sailing cats discuss. The experience gained by travelling around, showing and sailing my two F12 cats shows that there is a lot of interest for cat sailing outside the established cat sailing group. That is one of the reasons why I’m urging for a modern design but kept at a reasonable price. My intention is to build and sail a “cruising” version F14 cat next summer (in about 6 months).

gato
From my perspective the F-14 concept is far from dead...here is a picture of a long term F-14 project I am cooking up of my own with some valuable input from

friends

...it's a styrofoam plug so all things on it are subject to change...this is early picture of the basic hull shape before the deck and bottom shape were finalized. I love this medium since you can shape it full size and modify it easily either by taking away of adding more material.

Regards,
Bob

Nice looking hulls Bob. I love to race but I also love sailing in general and can see somebody buying a modern basic F14 to learn then adding spin's etc later if and when they want. They would never need to get a bigger cat and would be confident with it much sooner than an 18ft. We've had too much wind 5 weeks in a row here and for the last 2 weeks I've been taking the kids 14ft Arrow out and having a ball with no other boats on the water I only did it for a short but exciting time today because the wind turned off shore and the official wind put the gusts at 55km/h on land. The point is none of the bigger cats were even towed to the club I'm now selling my A and will sail an Arrow or Mozzie when I'm not on the Nacra. Gato did you see the pic I posted in Rolfs heating the workshop thread with my heatlights? Thats the bottom of the Arrow I'm sailing, that ones glass but I have a ply one as well, its dead flat, no dagger boards just a centreboard, it would be very easy to homebuild and I swear it planes, you can feel it get up to speed on a beam reach and then all of a sudden it takes off. Mind you it probably was ready to take off today while still on the sand. The Arrow has the same mast height as the F12 so your rigging could transfer
regards

Nice hull Seeker, We used to go windsurfing boards the same way. We are doing what a lot of people want to have, the question is how to get them on the marke for those not interested in homebuilding.
I saw the pics JeffS, nice cat, what is the total weight of that platform?

Arrow and Arafura Cadet specs are on the National (AUS) website
www.arrowarafura.com
Minimum Weight (hulls and fixed fittings) 50 kg
plans are $30
I like the idea of building the F12 and then if it gets outgrown building 14ft hulls to transfer the expensive bits over. The main sail area for the F12 is only 0.6m2 smaller than the Arrow, with its high aspect rig should work fine with the 2.6m2 jib. The Arrow has a metal framework for the centreboard which the kids and I don't like but it works unbelievably well and leaves the decks clear to sit on. When the kids go out they just pull the rope and cleat it like a dinghy and when they come back to the beach they release the cleat and the board comes up.
regards