Formula 14 development

Don't dump them Berny I will take them, I will try and build 4 or 5 for the club but I would build them with another layer of divinacell on the keel and under the deck deck for abuse by the kids and I would try and get kids to build them so they would be really usefull for getting kids into the ownership concept of boats and if there ever turned out to be a commercial use for them in the future you could have them back so your not wasting all that effort. When you are really serious about getting rid of them let me know and I will come and get them regards Jeff

Berny,

Whatever.

Just don't shove the blame for what ever happens or doesn't happy to the F14 in my shoes.

Wouter

I guess your earlier remark that you hadn't been following any of the forums accounts for this comment. Wouter's thinking on the development of youth sailing is well documented.

(Actually Wouter's thinking on most things is well documented! <img src=

alt=

/> )

'Thinking' doesn't get it done and besides, he comes accross here with negative crap and we have enough of that happening without him laying in.

I'll keep you posted Jeff.

Hey Berny, a word of encouragement…

If I had one person, just one, really interested in knowing more about the boat

, more than just a casual passing interest, I'd be enthused, but after SEVEN YEARS of racing and seldom being beat by any other 14, and that's without the kite, I'd be buoyed but realistically I've run out of time. I'm 66yrs old and it's time to other things.

Something to consider...you have put 7 years of your life into this concept, do you really want to walk away form it just when the rest of the catamaran world is starting to come around to the Formula format of cat racing? A format that might allow your design to thrive.
You say you are 66 years old and it's time for other things...are the “other things” you have in mind going to be as personally fulfilling as your cat design?
You have obviously laid the groundwork at a high price...do you really want to turn and walk away from all that?

Maybe the

other things

you speak of could be as simple as taking a different perspective on what you have already accomplished. Instead of seeking approval from others, the secret is enjoying the process of conceiving and actually turning into reality, the dream of a better 14’ catamaran. You write as a man beaten and disillusioned. From the description of your boats performance it has been an unqualified success. You have let the lack of acceptance by the masses strip you of the joy you should have experienced in making a personal dream a reality. Celebrate the unique creative spark that God put in you and don’t let your joy hinge upon the approval of others. The masses lack any vision regarding their own lives, what makes you think they will see and understand the vision that is uniquely yours?

It appears as if there may be a chance of breathing new life into your dream. Instead of abandoning your project, perhaps it is just time for the next chapter. A combination of your groundwork, experience and vision along with Jeff’s energy and
ability to get a group of kids interested in sailing at his cub might be just the catalyst. Stay closely involved with your boats evolution, it is your child ( so to speak), nurture it, don’t throw away the countless hours dreaming, conceiving, along with the blood sweat and tears that culminated into your exceptional boat.… a more fulfilling realization of your dream may be just around the next bend…

Best Regards,
Bob

I guess you haven't looked at the discussions I was alluding to. It's unfortunate that you chose to interpret Wouter's original critique as a sign of resentment and apathy. With a little more insight you might have recognized that he was actually offering some sage and constructive advice and I guess could have been a source of much more.

Best of luck with your project if you choose to pursue it.

Thanks Seeker, you are kind.
Mate, it's the disapointment that the boat may never become a new class, not the boat it's self that I'm unhappy about. I still race it every Saturday arvo [afternoon] at a local club and, except that there's not a lot of competition there, I win by 10mins plus most days, I really enjoy the boat. I have actually gotten a lot out of designing, building and racing it and although it's difficult to justify the cost, it has been a great journey and I'm not sorry I did it. At least I'm not going to die wondering.
I also have a very supportive and understanding wife which helps.

Yes I think it's time to fully let go and give Jeff a chance to do something useful with it.
Jeff, PM me and we'll work on getting the moulds to you.

Mark, I've read a lot of Wouters stuff over the years and mostly, I have great admiration and respect for his abilities, but try as I might I don't see anything possitive in his response here, in fact quite the reverse. And it doesn't help much, that on this issue, I tend to have glass toes. <img src=

alt=

/>

Berny

Like Berny, I to am a little disappointed by the “penetration” that the F14 has made on the market place, as far as numbers sailing go. That is not to say that there hasn’t been great interest in the concept and in the F14’s that are sailing, (I have personally posted out over two thousand DVD’s of the AO F14 sailing to people, world wide, who have requested them, and always with very positive feed back from them after they have viewed them)
Personally I have always considered that the most demanding AND rewarding sailing has always been on a cat around the 14’ size. This size requires that to perform well on the water a sailer has to concentrate to the utmost, as even a small error of judgement will drop you back in a fleet enormously. This is a size of boat that is not very forgiving of “mistakes”. It is a size that requires very good seamanship to sail it well, it is very hard to gain places on a 14’ but very easy to lose them and that is why it is such a great test of a sailers worth on the water. On larger cats, the same small errors that cost so dearly on a 14’ are not as noticeable to their overall performance. The weight placement on larger cats has far less of the immediate critical effect on performance and even the sail trim is not on the same “knife edge” of whether or not the cat goes or goes backwards in a fleet. Having said that, and having sailed (designed and built many myself as well) every size of “off the beach cat” that there is, it really has surprised me that when, two designs (at least) of F14 catamarans have been produced, and that have shown, over an extended period of time, to be FAR superior in all round performance, to any and all preceding 14’ cat(s) that have ever existed and yet there has not been at least, a moderate number of sailers prepared to “move into” the class. It is even more puzzling to me when I watch week after week two F14 Alpha Omega’s competing equally with cats that are much bigger and way more expensive, and many times (not always of course), the F14’s are finishing ahead of the bigger, more expensive cats, over the line. Just look at the current comparative Yachting Victoria yardsticks to get an idea of just how competitive the F14’s are. In all humility, I have to ask, JUST WHAT DO THE SAILING PUBLIC WANT?
That is not to say that I have any regrets for designing and building the Alpha Omega F14, for like Berny, it has fulfilled my personal desire to “take the 14’ cat” to a place that I felt it could go but where few, if any one else was prepared to put their “money where their mouths were”.
I don’t think that the F14 is dead, I think that it’s time is not quite here yet – but it WILL come -

I believe the F14 will find its public after an even smaller kids' cat becomes available.

It is unlikely that a kid who started in an Optimist would upgrade to an F14. It is also unlikely that more experienced sailors

downgrade

to an F14, regardless the higher skill requirements. When going small they seem to want simplicity (Wave).

I only see kids who start in a smaller cat upgrading to the F14 as they grow heavier (and the F16, Tornado, etc. later on).

Think about it: there would never be a strong 29er or Laser class without a strong Optimit class to feed them. That's why if you want a strong F14 class, first you must support the F12 or another entry cat for kids.

By the way, I have doubts regarding the name

F12

.

The Optimist could have failed if it was named

Pessimist

,

Storm

or

Rocket

. Those names tend to scare parents, who ultimately decide what entry boat their siblings will sail.

At least for me,

Formula

is associated primarily with Formula 1 car races, high speed, high technology - and very famous accidents. It is cool for the upgrade boat (F14, F16, etc.), but I'd rather use a name that inspires only positive thoughts and confidence.

KidCat

wouldn't be bad: it's short, easy to say, meaningful and evocates the close relationship between a kid and its pet (= home). KidCat delivers the message that it is a cat designed and intended for kids. This line of thought runs paralel to a kid's toy, implying fun, safety and simplicity. The name says it all. Just my opinion, naturally.

Luiz,
I know both Berny and Darryl. I have seen first hand how both Berny's 4.3 and Darryl's Alpha perform and they
are both far and away superior to any other 14 ft boat
out there. They really are both great boats.

I think you make a very good point.

I only see kids who start in a smaller cat upgrading to the F14 as they grow heavier

While I agree with your statement I do not wish to infer
that the F14 is not suitable for adults. The challenge is convincing the market they should embrace the F14.
A longer route to that destination may be to to develop
the market from the beginning by making cat sailing more accessable to children at a very young age so they
develop into cat sailors.

I have always thought that we needed to develop a complete range of quality boats.
Not just any old thing that satisfies some basic
measurements like we have now.
Each design has to be quality in every way in order to catch them young and train them to be life long cat
sailors.

This new rang of boats needs to take into account ease of handling onshore, and therefore the weight of the boat is critical, as well as the time to rig, cost, handling on
the water and asthetics.
This was my general line of thinking when I first started working on a 12 ft design.
It had to be a very simple boat to rig to take up little to none of the parents time in rigging etc. and keep costs right down which would make it more appealing to the family budget.
Light weight so it can easily be moved around etc.
Since intrducing Wouter to this initial concept including the free standing rig he has pushed the concept more towards an older childs boat.
I firmly believe we should be getting the 12 ft boats into the hands of 7-12 yr olds.
Possibly use what Wouter's thinking about as an interim step between this and the F14. No doubt many individuals that would walk this path would not go past the F14
once they get there.

I think this is more about developing the market through more approariate and marketable designs.
I see the boats developed by Darryl and Berny to be a part of the whole strategy.

If this could be made happen I believe it would be a great boast to the sport in general.
I just think if we can put really good quality designs into the hands of the very young they will be more inclined to stay with the sport and continue to grow and develop as
cat sailors.

This is just the way I see it.

Regards,
Phill

Fully agreed, Phill.

New cats today target adult sailors mostly - and in the long run this is a big mistake.

A school without kindergarten depends on other kindergartens to

feed

students to its first grade. It works well while they recommend that specific school to parents, but the school shrinks if they don't. Or worse, it may go bankrupt.

Likewise, we can't depend on teachers from the Optimist or Laser class to recommend cats as the next boat for their students.

The solution is, as you wrote, an entry level cat targeting the same market niche that is currently monopolized by the Optimist class.
-Then we need at least one cat designed for sailors who started at the entry level cat and got too heavy or too old - the F12!
-Then we need a third and bigger one - the F14! The fourth is not a problem: more than enough alternatives exist nowadays.

This range should also include other 11 to 15ft cat classes, but not too many. The Hobie Wave is already there as a cruising option.

But still: without an excellent entry level cat, catsailing remains dependent on monohull-trained sailors willing to try cats, old windsurfers or kiters searching for something less physically demanding while almost as thrilling, etc.

A one design kids' cat is prioritary. I believe it should be about the size of an Optimist, rigged with a more efficient sail, faster (can't be different) but safer, easier to assemble and cheaper.

I'll invest some time/money in this idea as soon as my (

almost ready

) boat is finished.

Back to the name: Entry Level Cat = ELC or ELCat or El Cat (too Spanish?)

Jim Boyer, built a nice little mini Taipan a few years back. Bill Nocoll and Ian Marcovich did a nice small 14 that was easy enough to handle. Hobie has the Bravo.

It's hard to know just what would work given that these have all been offered in the last 10 years and none of them have been that successful.
I would have thought that any progressive cat club would have a couple of Hobie Brovo's as trainers.

The paper Tiger is also a great little training boat with lots of good gear to learn about but is mostly only sailed by older guys???

I have no idea?????

.

Berny

Hey Berny I missed this post until now, thanks for the offer of the moulds I'll PM you now. Its exciting to think that a kid that starts with a heavier version would seek to build your original version, as he/she got older and could just keep improving the platform or upgrading to quality components knowing that their next boat will be an F14. One day when they get real serious they would probably look into the commercial world and pay a professional to build the hulls maybe even you! The main thing is keeping juniors interested in cats, its tiring doing it but rewarding.
many thanks again Berny
regards

The starting point is not the boat design itself, but a work plan.

The start of the work plan is a market survey. We should start surveying kids, parents and teachers in the Optimist class what they'd expect and like to see in a modern boat to replace the Optimist.

The goal is to compete with the Optimist in the same market niche, so we should think and act as developers of a new entry boat to replace -with advantages- the old monohull trainer.

One example of a common design mistake: kids sail

inside

the Optimist and

over

cats like those in the photos. I bet parents prefer a boat where kids can duck inside. They don't like the idea of kids falling in the water when bumped by others - which happens all too often in the begining.

So, we start surveying the target market. As resuts start to materialize, and if the project seems feasible, we shoud atract the big cat manufacturing companies. They will have to cooperate with each other and with the new class to make their total market grow. Reason: ultimately, they will be the main economic beneficiaries.

Only then can a complete project be developed. But by project I don't mean a boat project: the project must include at least the class rules (especially with regards to construction); a global marketing plan based on the need to update the Optimist and, only then, the boat itself.

What some may not like is the inclusion of big manufacturers in the elaboration of the class rules, marketing plan and boat plan. They master their business and the constraints for serial production and sales better than we do, so this is necessary, in my opinion.

Work plan - first draft:

1-Survey
2-Concept definition
3-Feasibility study
4-Class rules
5-Marketing plan
6-Boat design

In paralel:

a) Creation of a core group to start the class.

b) Atraction of the main cat builders around the world. This probably means two US companies, two or more European companies and other smaller companies from around the world (Australia, New Zealand, China, etc.)

c) Atraction of the main cat classes organizations, like the Tornado, A Class, Hobie 16, F16, F18, etc. They are also beneficiaries from the entry level cat.

d) Class creation.

Luiz, I think your systematic approach is good, but you should also make sure first that others who might work with you (and I'm purely an observer here) agree with your basic premise that the objective is to compete in the same market as the Optimist. I'm not sure that that's what others here are thinking. 14' is a huge amount of boat for a kid of the size that sails an Optimist. I think you also need to develop a clear understanding of how the concept relates to possible F12 development. Regardless of whether you are trying to complement or compete with it, people should know what the intention is.

How do parents just buy a $12000 new small cat and turn their little novice loose on it. It is going to come into the beach one day with boards down, it will bounce around in the swell on its side for a while the kids must be encouraged to tip it and right it whenever they think of it. The problem for the manufacturer is they probably have to build and market a boat at a loss to bring through dedicated young sailors. The 420's I have fit the bill they are robust easy to fix easy to right great starter boat. First thing I tell kids and novice adults is dont worry if you break something I'll fix it so the pressure is off them. Imagine a young sailor starting on a 14 cat then offering them the 420, they would never sail again! The advantage the mono has is Olympic class and that encourages the kids even if they don't make it, its the dream so first the cat maufacturers have to get young backsides on boats then with numbers comes the statistics to get cats in the Olympics. Kingston has 9 cats sailing there are now 7 private 420's and 7 school owned 420's in the town. All of our kids are sailing mono's what sort of statistic is that to present to the Olympic federation. The manufacturer with the long term patience to partly sponsor kids into boats should earn every cat sailors gratitude and support.
regards

Mark,
I'm certainly not talking about a 14 ft boat for a 7-12 yr olds.
It's more like a max of 12ft and would be in competition with the Optimist.

I assume this is what Luiz is also referring to but I could be wrong.
We were talking about a boat to feed the F14 class.

In fact it may feed the class that feeds the F14 class as I beleive the need is for a range of boats to bring kids up to boats such as the F14.

My original idea was to design a 12ft Blade with a free standing rig for young kids 7-12 yrs or up to 60kg.

Jeff,
This boat would be very simple.
I will only have hulls,beams,tramp,mast,sock luffed sail with batterns, mainsheet, tiller and rudders.
No other parts. All aimed at keeping the costs and rigging time down.

It will have skegs and be light enough for kids to drag around the beach on its skegs which are part of the hull moulding.

It is designed to be grown out of.
Because if they can't grow out of it, it is too big for the young ones in the first place.

Regards,
Phill

I agree with Phil on this, I teach children in Optimists, at my club we have around 50 kids sailing them on a Monday night, my older children 5,8 and 10, all sail optimists. So selfishly I want the F12 to be a boat for them. I get the feeling that Wouter also wants the boat to be for him!

Ultimately I believe the hulls should be rotomoulded. Sorry to mention the plastic word on this forum.

Have you seen the Open Bic? I bet that this is the future of Kids monohull sailing. They start off with an Optimist rig on this boat and then add the Bic rig for more performance. Can't we do tis with the Kids F12.

http://www.openbic.com/

Gareth

That certainly makes sense Phill, but the morphing of the thread has been a little subtle. Luiz's post was a reply to Berny, who was talking about a couple of 14' boats. I just want to make sure people aren't misunderstanding each other here (yeah I know that's hard to imagine on catsailor, but it could happen!).

Sorry for diverting from the F14 subject - it created some confusion. You are 100% right on your assumption.

Sounds like a good idea Phill. When do we start??? <img src=

alt=

/>

Berny

Phill I can see the sense of a smaller boat, would a 12 carry an adult safely to instruct a kid and would a novice adult feel comfortable
regards

The first cat that Windrush made (and their highest number of sales) was a 12'

surf cat

. Cheap, strong, great fun for kids or for TWO adults. They were used for years also for

off the beach

hire fleets - always sailed with at least one adult (for hire) and often with two adults and one or two kids (even though with more than one adult on board they suffered obviously with performance), but they did bring many many new people into sailing catamarans.
In the mid to late seventies I used to hire out a fleet of 30 of them over summer, off the beach here at Somerton/Brighton together with a 13’ cat that we made just for that business.

Darryl,
It was the 12 Surfcat by Windrush that we used at the sailing club. The kids loved them but they were rather dated in appearance. There are other small boats out there but the way I see it they all suffer the same drawbacks. From my perspective we need something today that looks fast sitting on the beach to market to both the kids and parents. It also has to work well and be convenient to rig and move around and not cost the world.

Regards,
Phill

Bern,
I have been working on and off on the design since 2003 and while ideas have been evolving they are pretty well settled now and I just need to bring it all together and draw it up
which I'd like to think I could do late next week.

I plan on using the same beams I extrude for the F16 because this boat will need proportionally larger beams.
I have a friend who has nearly finished a rather large CNC 3 axis cutter that could be used to make alloy moulds for the
boards and even cut out kits if need be down track.

Getting the free standing rig to work will be the most interesting and most exciting part of the project.

I can make the sails for the rig and already have a basic design that needs to be fine tuned during the prototyping process. Still do not have a mast but that should not be too hard as the sail has a luff pocket so just need round tube that does not fail.
I think I have enough foam left over from the F18 plug to make a 12 ft plug.
I'm in the middle of another project which needs to be sorted before I can actually do anything meaningful.
Happy to talk to you about it anytime.

Regards,
Phill

Jeff,
The hulls would certainly have the buoyancy the restriction on the weigh is more to do with the free standing rig lifting the windward hull. So I suppose it is more performance related.

Regards,
Phill

Thanks Darryl and Phill I'll watch your 12ft ideas, do you have a price you are trying to work to?
regards

Gareth,
I did consider two rigs.
If used in a sailing school it would be very handy and not very expensive addition. Just an extension that plugs into the mast and a different sail.
I agree, that to get the cost of the boat cheap enough for the family budget rottomoulding could be an option.
I don't suppose it is something that you'd consider before
confirming the existence of a good market.

Do you have any idea of the tooling costs?

Also I'd really like to be able to do some weight calculations on RM hulls.
In foam sandwich the hulls would be around 11 to 12 kg each max and could be as low as 10kg because they are so simple. I'd love to know the weight of an equivalent rottomould hull.

The hulls will not have the normal high loadings from bridle etc because the free standing rig will transfer the loading through the front beam. They just need reasonable tortional strength between the beams although sheeting from the ends of the rear beam instead of the centre will help a little with this.
While RM may be needed it would be a shame because it just isn't a nice as foam sandwich.

Regards,
Phill

Phill,

The cost of rotomoulding is a tricky one, most rotomoulded tooling is cast aluminium, traditionally the castings are quite complex and therefore expensive. However rotomoulded tooling can also be fabricated, that means you can make it by welding together sheets of aluminium. This in turn means that if you know the right people you could probably fabricate tooling for any boat that could traditionally be made in marine ply relatively cheaply. Although tortured ply designs would require more skill to fabricate than developable surfaces. I guess this is your field of expertise. Sorry I haven’t mentioned any real numbers. I have a friend who is a rotomoulder so I can get some real numbers for you next week.

The next thing to do is find a rotomoulder as you will then need to add the jig fixtures to your tooling and they may be specific to the rotomoulder.

The next issue is weight, I guess the average hull would be 5mm thick polyethylene which has a density of 1g/cc so an F12 with a surface area of 4m2 would weigh 5x1x4=20kg, When you get into more complex rotomoulding that uses foamed polyethylene cores you may get down to 14kg but this gets more expensive to produce. Because polyethylene is no where near as stiff as GRP foam sandwich you may need to tweak the design a little to add stiffening ribs like the Dart 16 has.

All the best

Gareth

Phill,

In all kindness I feel that this is a good time to suggest further and deeper analyse your idea's.

Your idea's, like this one, have been tried in other classes already and found wanting. The lasers tried this trick with the 4.7 rig and found that it was insufficiently controllable. They now sell a complete different mast and sail combination for the 4.7 version then is used by the radial and standard version.

Rotomoulding. Do the math and find the reason why the 3.95 mtr long Hobie wave (115 kg) actually weights more then a F16. Rotomoulding hulls are not lightweight by any stretch of the imagination.

I know you hate my push rod setup but there is a very good reason why it is there. You can't just have the beam lift the hulls out of the water. As you know yourself even the 80x2 is very bendy when held on one end while the other end is lifted. The reason why say an F16 platform is so stiff despite this flexibility is the result of how the forces are actively working against one another. This aspect of your design really needs some closer analysis. There are some pittfalls here that your current design doesn't address yet.

That is not true. Interestingly enough is will actually increase the bending of the from beam under the mast step loading. Like I said there are some interesting things going on here.

I'm sorry, you are not

a week away

from completing the design.

My flame suit is on, so everybody feel free to

give it to the Dutch guy we all love to hate

Wouter