Formula 14 development

Thank you Darryl for bringing that to my attention...I was unaware of that rule change...I love that all the restraints have been cast off except for length...finally a class where improving performance trumps all the irrational fears that have hindered catamaran development for so long...a completely open class has been long over due.

Regards,
Robert

Could you point me to the F14 Class site.

I often think that the demise of the 18sq fleet in the US was the fact that the prototype boats would pull a horizon job on the production boats.
I would think that for F14s a min-weight and max-area sail would be a good idea.

Here is the old site...doesn't look like it hasn't been updated yet.
http://www.formula14.yachting.org.au/

I absolutly love this

no rules

format...finally a place where anything goes...no holds barred. A place where I can try a rigid wing if I want...a place where Darryl can try a foiling 14' tri if he wants...this is perfect...all the other classes have some type of rule that puts creativity in a box in some form or fashion. Each class hits a wall where their restraints keep a lid on potental performance and the sad part about it is that is their rules designed intent.

The 14' length is a perfect place to try out new concepts on a smaller less expensive platform. How about this for a mission statement

Bring your best sailing multi hull, whatever it might be, as long as its no longer than 4.3 meters.
Cry babies need not apply!

F14 gota love it!!!!

I often think that the demise of the 18sq fleet in the US was the fact that the prototype boats would pull a horizon job on the production boats.

This doesn't seem to be a problem since the closest thing to a production F14 is the A&O and it's a full carbon rocket...If a

prototypes

does a horizon job on the fleet why can't the

fleet

step up it's game?

It seems the only accepted method of dealing with such an out come for the majority of cat sailors is to dumb down the better performer to make it

fair

. Makes me wonder how much faster and more efficent our boats would be if not for all of the self imposed rules that tie our hands behind our backs.

The better question is why did everyone give up on the class just because one sailor found a better way?

Are there any other F14's under construction? Darryl have you moved forward with your foiling Tri bassed on the A & O?

The concept is not actually a

Foiler

but instead foil stabilize assisted wave piercing hulls. I have only made half scale models for

proof of concept

(results of which produced some quite dramatic results) Surfice it to say that if I proceeded with a full sized product it would really

shake up

just what the convential percieved performance limitations are! Sadly I am of an age now that I don't think that I will be building any new boats. I have fully passed the business over to my son, so I will only act in a consultation role from now on.
Darryl J Barrett

Oh Darryl, dont leave us hanging like that! 🙂

My boatbuilding days are not over yet..

I'm with Rolf, inquiring minds want to know more about your concept. Any pictures of your half model?

New data suggest a offline too......

This might be of interest to someone; http://catsailor.net/forums/showthread.php?3954-F14-project

Great to see this thread is still being supported vigorously.

Berny, with the utmost respect I point out that one of your pictures is dated April 7th, 2004...that’s just shy of 7 years ago...there have been significant shifts in cat design in that period of time...not saying that your 430 is not a great boat, and fully acknowledge it can hang with the best of them, and beat the vast majority in its class to this very day...but one has to put it all into perspective...$5,400 for a incomplete 7 year old cat seems overly optimistic.
Fair or not, when viewed in the company of the DNA A cat, NACRA 20C and the other latest and greatest offerings to the catamaran community it looks dated. Add this to the fact that the F14 class has not yet

hit its stride”, and it all leads to

no interest". Until the F14 class is presented and accepted as its own viable stand alone class, a cat which is an end unto itself rather than a feeder class to something better, or something for those not able “to handle” a real cat…until it is accepted on its own with no disparaging strings attached it won’t go anywhere.

Really!

Sorry Berny, my “sour grape” post above was probably spawned out of frustration of not having the time and resources to push ahead my own F14 project as quickly as I had hoped.
“To error is human to forgive divine”

I do hold firm on my statements about the F14 standing on its own merit. Any time you label something a “trainer” it carries a certain negative stigma with it…the A&O is certainly no trainer, ….and if the performance of your boat is as good as I hear, it’s not strictly a trainer either….since the baby boomers have the money, have the sailing history/experience, are getting older and not as ready/willing/able to drag a 400# F18 around like they could in their glory days, that may be the market to shoot for. All the performance attributes they had on their larger cats in a smaller/lighter/easier to handle on the beach pocket rocket. It is a natural progression as one gets older…there is no other option that is as light, fast and gives all the strings to pull including a spinnaker. One you can modify and “trick out” to your heart’s content.
It sounds like you have exhausted yourself trying to sell it to the youth. As a byproduct, there might be more impact on the youth by getting grandpa to buy it/enjoy it and have the grandson be drawn to “do what grandpa does”. Just a thought…may be you have already tried that angle as well???

Finally got the inside laminate (Kevlar/S2 glass)on both halves of the first hull.

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Post cure Florida style...

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Hi everyone,
I'm no boat builder or designer, hell I don't even sail a cat, yet!
I'm a 15 year old kid, I believe I would fit into your target market, I have read this topic and it's obvious you all put a lot of thought into this, but personally I think you need to choose between the F12 and F14.
Can you create an F14 with 3 different sail sizes, just like the laser, this will give parents the incentive to buy their kids the F14 knowing that they can be sailing it for years.
You need to give the option of either sailing it solo or with 2 on board.
The Mozzie has the option of the sloop rig and a spinnaker, as a kid sailing I have always been drawn to spinnaker boats due to the perception of speed, a trapeze just adds to the fun!
You need an entry level cat, which everyone can sail and everyone is on an equal platform.
I believe you need a 1 design, cheap cat, to attract parents and kids alike.
Forget about carbon, yes it's light, but it's not essential and it's bloody expensive, you're going to have more people coming into a cheap accessible class, not an expensive, elitist class.
The ideal price needs to be around $4,000 USD, and you need to ensure every club that sails cats either has one in their training fleet or has access to one.
You need kids going round showing them off, if that means sponsoring them, then do it!
You need to get a class which kids want to turn to!
Anyway I'm moving to Aus in a few months, where can I get one of these and how much is it going to cost me?

Don't get me wrong your thinking is great, but I don't think it will get anywhere near to the optimist if you leave it to who has most money crosses the line first

Hi Rob
Both Berny and I have put the idea of multiple rig options out there before, both here and on the F12 Forum...a sound idea and concept but it doesn't seem to get any traction.

Hi Seeker,
Like I said, I don't sail cats yet.
But most successful junior mono hulls have multiple rig options, the buck to the trend is of course the optimist.
The laser won't be half as successful without the radial and 4.7 rig.
But if you don't have the right backing I guess you don't go forward...

Rob
One of the things that seems to be an issue with the F14 is that each individual is trying to achieve something different out of it. Some people want to resurrect old 14's and soup them up...others want a inexpensive mass produced one design boat that appeals to the masses, and then there is Darryl and Berny who set out to build the fastest 14' they could....I am attracted to the later...I want the fastest possible 14' I can build.

There are many boats to choose from if one wants to be put into a

design straight jacket

but only the F14, at this point in time, allow for such freedom in design and construction. It is very easy to fall into the trap that many cat sailors do...that being...the minute that they put their money down on a particular class boat they fight tooth and nail to keep it the same, less their

investment

will loose value. Unfortunately no one told them that no boat is a good investment...especially a beach cat....it is a consumable...not a investment. At some point all this will shake out and a trend will develop...until then it is what it is. enjoy the freedom while you can.

Seeker,
I agree with you, the fastest 14' possible will be great.
But then why kid yourselves about getting kids into cat sailing?
A fast, expensive, delicate boat is not going to attract kids into cat sailing, a cheap, fun adaptable class where everyone is welcome and competitive.
From what you described the F14 is not that?
I'm not having a go, I'm just confused?

Rob
Didn't intend to confuse. I am looking at the F14 from a personal perspective. What someone else wants or needs is for them to decide. When I was younger I may have wanted a smaller version of something...but I didn't want a dumb down version.

Not all are here to promote youth sailing as their main goal, but welcome it as an added benefit if it should happen. Personally, I am building to fulfill my need for a fun, fast, after work pocket rocket...those with goals to energize youth sailing can pursue them as they see fit, and design a boat with that in mind. It is all good and each one can find satisfaction in meeting their needs...as varied as they may be. An F14 can be pretty much anything you want it to be at this point....explore the possibilities.

G'day Rob my thoughts on the F14 is a pathway, for a beginner wanting a new cat (which is very rare) the F12 is more than enough for most, then if you want new and more you take a big step to the F14 which is a boat you never have to stop sailing unless you want to step up to the next level. Once you get to Aus you will find no end of cheap 14ft cats to get people into sailing and theres heaps of them out there sailing. I have 5 cats in my backyard 14ft or under and they're all probably 25yrs old. We need to have a pipe line of powerful new cats with square top rigs coming through so that in 2o yrs we don't all have 50 yr old cats for the kids to sail on.
If you want a cheaper option for a fast cat consider getting a good 14ft Arrow (the fastest standard 14ft cat you can trapeze on) with the new square top main then if you want you could put a spinnaker on it.
good luck with your boat hunting

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Started to build the jig for curved dagger boards...need the boards...and trunks before moving forward on my hulls.

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Are you building asymmetrical or symmetrical boards?

Jalani...I am leaning towards symmetrical...been trying to pay close attention to what the

A

cat community has been working on over at Sailing Anarchy on the curved boards thread. At this point it seem that a case could be made for both asymmetrical and symmetrical ... my gut instinct tells me that it would be much easier to get the asymmetrical boards

wrong

.

With so many variables already in play, I think I will go a bit more conservative on this aspect of a fairly ambitious undertaking...LOL. With all the experimentation concerning angle of attack, board radius and foil section...with multiple versions showing promise... it seems like no one has the best design locked down and there is a lot of latitude as to what works...with the only real consensus among the various proponents being that, regardless of asymmetrical or symmetrical, the top

curved foils

have an edge over straight boards.

If it doesn't work? Modify...Modify...Modify! I will make the trunks slightly oversize to accept changes.

Kudos for trying it - I'd love to have a little experiment myself but doubt my ability to turn out anything useable <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

The older of my 2 Stealths would make a great testbed for trying out such ideas if I was so inclined......

I am going with a 1.45 meter radius....same as the new DNA boards. Still trying to nail down the exact cord and foil I want to use.

You ought to give it a go on your old Stealth...might breathe new life into her and it would certainly be interesting to see how she did against her sister boat.

I had a crisis of confidence earlier this year (or recognised that you can't be an expert in everything) and asked Richard Roake about foil design. Based upon this conversation unless you want to play around with xfoil or similar go with a Eppler E836 and approximately 12% thickness to chord ratio. Assuming you are designing for an adult driving from trapeze you are going to need a bigger foil than the A cat as you are going slower, have similar righting moment but a shorter heeling arm (mast). So I'd go widish on the section maybe 175mm (7").