F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors !

I think this is one of the best things to hit the market in a long time.

I have always said that the Nacra 500 was pretty much the best (teenage) youth boat there is; I think it is better then the SL16 for example. Sadly Nacra never pushed the 500 to its full potential.

However, this Viper club may well be the perfect answer to a deadlocked situation.

It has the excellent superwing (lightweight alu) mast (shared by most F16's) that allows for a surprisingly wide range of tuning thus effectively making the rig suitable to a wide range of crew weights. This mast is also of the new mast variant (not tear drop shaped !) that all modern boats like the A's and F18's are using now. The youth will therefore learn to sail with this kind of mast from the very beginning !

The new club sail area is basically identical to the Nacra 500 (also just right), but the Viper Club is lighter (the one compliant about the nacra 500) and has a modern hullshape with daggers. As such the club version remains fully F16 compliant allowing the youths to both participate in those events or to simply upgrade their boats in time to full (adult) F16 specs by getting a new mainsail and spinnaker (jibs are identical to both versions). I suspect several crews will sell on their old club suit of sails to a new young team when upgrading. In short, the

F16 Viper Club

is the true racing boat for youths with an undeniable growth path towards adult (full spec) performance sailing that is on a par with the best of performance cats out there (such as the F18 and A's)

Smart move, guys and girls !

No doubt about it.

Of course, supplying the boats for the US youth championships in addition to also supplying them to the US Alter Cup (adult) championships is another brilliant move !

Wouter

Club boat? <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

So about how much for a set of Viper dagger boards?? <img src="<>/whistle.gif" alt="whistle" title="whistle" height="15" width="15" />

I agree with you on the 5.0 Wouter but the Viper is NOT going to make a good

club boat

. Expensive high aspect dagger boards like those on the viper are not going to work in

club

or rental environment with teenagers. A Viper for training lighter and less experienced sailors would be a better marketing term then

club

boat.

The 5.0 is about the same weight/size as the Viper (but minus the boards and bullet proof) so it's a far better club boat. However the 5.0 is not nearly as maneuverable so there is a trade off. <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />

I cannot follow this logic. Every kind of

club

dinghy has a daggerboard, even an Optimist. Hence if a kid can handle the daggerboard or a Laser, Pico OpenBic, Optimist, 420, 470, 29, Topper Taz, Topaz or wahtever, he or she can do this on a cat as well.
Maybe you can mark

1 foot

with a permanent pen on the board and it is kid proof.

Cheers,

Klaus

As a former Opti instuctor, I agree, any kid with about 10 minutes on an Opti understands the concept, pull the board up before you hit bottom. However, an Opti or Laser only goes about 3-5knts when coming into shore and there is only one board to pull up. Those Opti/Laser boards/rudders are quite short and much stronger than our high aspect style carbon/foam racing cat boards. Oh, and like Elvis Costello says,

accidents will happen

more often when you have kids/newbies on board.

Perhaps AHPC can come up with shorter boards for the Club, made of solid fiberglass that will withstand a full speed beaching? And also beef up the dagger slots at the back?

Viper boards are plenty tough. They aren't that resilient to chipping, (like any are...), but I've slammed into a sand bar double trap reaching and not broken anything. I've also seen a Viper pile into a sandbar hard enough the sterns were lifted .

I'd rather buy a new expensive board, then tear the trunk out of the hull.

Perhaps if they just did some shorter board with the rope uphaul system - ala my Taipan- I think AHPC knows how to do that 😉 then all it takes is a simple pull on the line and both boards come up- easy enough even a child could do it!

Kirt

The Viper already has the pull up rope system.

I'm still unconvinced that the high aspect boards offer better performance that my

stubby

.

I think you guys are using the wrong model for junior Catamaran sailing.

USA Club's are not going to get a fleet of cat's to replace or add to their 420's. It hasn't happened in 30 years...

IMO, I think the idea to sell is that your club's top sailors need a new challenge, these kids will be older and experienced racers. Clubs are now buying international 420's.... We want them to get a pair of Viper Clubs to give the top kids a taste of apparent wind sailing and coaching.

The idea we are selling is that your sailing experience will be much more successful if you understand apparent wind sailing and tactics that you get on a catamaran. (not to mention it's a lot of fun).

We need to make the case that learning to sail and race a catamaran will make you a better sailor.... no matter what boat you will be racing that particular day.

The buzz word of the day is CROSS TRAINING!

I still believe any advantage high aspect boards have is lost raising an lowering. I would prefer Taipan style boards where you leave down upwind and downwind (under kite), particularly sailing 1 up. The quicker you can wind the boat up after or before rounding marks the better.

You mean like we do with the Mozzie ? <img src="<>/smirk.gif" alt="smirk" title="smirk" height="15" width="15" />
Would be the perfect junior boat, but has no manufacturer pushing it. I guess being a 1967 design is what it has against it. One thing the

latest, greatest

protagonists sometimes forget is that a good design will always be one - look at the Tornado, the benchmark that everyone tries to outdo, and don`t seem to succeed too often.

No, he means like we do with the Taipan ! <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

He is right though, I never raised my boards and always go straight to hoisting the spi after rounding the off set mark. This does save a few valuable seconds especially when singlehanding in the rough. Certainly Don't want to go to lee to pull the board then !

Wouter

No, I mean like a Tornado 😛

If I was to build a single hand (or perhaps a double hand) spinnaker boat, I would have 4.9 style boards.

I race Uni most of the time and I LOVE my deep boards. In medium wind I leave them down when going downwind, so no loss of time there at the A mark spin. set. When it's really blowing I'll pull them both half way up, but I've got the up line on them so I don't go to the leeward side to do it, just a quick pull on the line and up it comes. The only drawback is at the C mark or gate, I've got one more thing to do, put them both back down for the next upwind leg, so that does add a couple seconds, but I've never lost a race by -a couple seconds- so I don't think it really has an effect on my overall standings. ;^)

I do think the deeper boards will help you go better upwind (create more lift, point higher or sideslip less) and allow you to fly a hull earlier in medium wind, which also reduces drag, so that's a help.

I agree and disagree with Mark. As a LONG time Opti coach at the National level in the US, a head instructor of three different sailing schools. The target audience is the kid who is either aging out of an Opti (15) or sizing out (just too tall / big) before they are 15. The sizing out kids tend to go to Laser 4.7 or 420, the age out kids (most of them) tend to be smaller and aim at club 420s. What you want is to provide them another avenue then club 420s (i.e BORING).

The problem is the club 420 is what high schools and colleges use in the states, hence, nice clean development path, motivation to sail them even though they are pigs (they don't even use trap and kites in either scenario). yes some are buying international 420s (much better boat), but I doubt that will get much of a hold since a lot of the

non laser youth

sailors are part of the high school scene (hence don't by boats). IFF you can get kids trying out Club vipers at the national Opti regattas, and target the kids/ parents that are considering buying their own 420 (10k) that the Viper is MORE FUN, you might get some to bite. The key from the kids perspective is MORE FUN (they hate 420s, trust me), and from the parent's perspective a better buy (longer lasting, good resale value), you might have something on your hands.

Of course, having to explain to them that they will need to drive to Florida to race them might kill the deal, so building up local fleets will be key as well. Nice club incentives, good deals, upgrade kits at a good price (to move from Club to full Viper) would help. For clubs, target the clubs that already have local cat fleets, nice beaches, etc.

My 2 cents. I think their is a huge demand for a fun boat for kids 15+ to sail, as must drop out of sailing due to 420s being pigs and lasers not being for everyone. Heck, I know of 10+ kids of the top of my head that don't have anywhere to go besides laser radial and will never be big enough for full rig, hence potential cat skippers....

One other 'selling point' on the Vipers, the kid's parrents can get on board and race with the kid too!

Then cue the Viper video with Matt and Zack Lynch.

This is dad's dream. Thousand and thousands of Hobie 16 dad's have raced with their kids.

Think about this.... This father son scene is NOT a selling point for a junior.... That would make the viper just another boat where dad needs crew.... it probably seems about the same as going out on the family cruiser where you get to hank on the jib and all of the other fore deck work.

When you were a kid... did you want your parents with you on the bike ride to where ever you thought would be cool?

We have 30 years of parents sailing with their kids on Hobie 16's... must be 100,000 boats sold..... Yet, How many second generation racers do you know? I don't think that dad driving with kid on the front end of the boat is a junior sailing program. I have never seen any data on this but I think it's remarkable how few

hobie kids

caught the sailing bug.

The rest of the sailing world has their kids off sailing their own little boats.... The conversion to life long sailors might not be great but I argue it's probably better then what us catamaran sailors have achieved. .. Basically, its the same thing as your own bike and when you were up for it.. your own trip to where ever. It's your chance to take on the sea and nature by your self.

Kids need their own boats to own the experience and responsibility....

I would not confuse the issue. The Viper club is a boat for young sailors.

The platform has a life beyond junior sailing. Eg... Laser and Laser Radial. (Make dad ask to borrow the thing).

I agree the prospect of saling full time with my parents does not appeal and has not appealed to me my whole sailing career. (started age 8 now 17) I learnt to sail in slow single man boat, went to a dinghy with crew my own age which was very fun and now I'm racing against him or with the option of sailing with him if I want.
I think junior sailors need the options because not everyone can find someone with similar interests and commitment to sailing.

The

problem

as I, a father of 4, see it is, there are not too many Dad's who can write a check for a $16,000 toy for only Junior to sail. An Opti? Yeah. But a boat that will require Dad to help step the mast, load and off load it from the trailor, etc. and by the way, who's going to drive the car? Not so much.

The Opti/420 route has been popular for years at YC's all over the world...why? Because Dad (actually Mom) can Drop Junior Off at the club in the morning and go about their business, return later to collect Junior, go home for dinner. The Clubs can stack up the boats and the kids can rig and un-rig them.

No effort involved and very little money, compared to a racing cat.

Now, try selling a $16,000 cat to a Club, here's what the old foggies on the Board of Directors are going to ask:

1. How many Optis and 420's could we buy for that same $16,000??

2. Where are we going to PUT those things? They take up too much room and dropping the mast is a pain!

3. Who are our kids going to race against? What other Clubs have kiddie cats??

Cats require at least 2x the work of Lasers, 420's and Opti's to rig and store, never mind they cost 4x as much, and then again, who are they going to race against, and what is the

follow on

program, without any upward mobility, (No Olympic class to aspire to) it's a tough sell.

BTW, I bought my kids an Opti, and then a JY 15. It was much easier for me to buy the JY15 because after the kids were done with it, I could race it too.

My kids now have a Hobie 14 in my backyard, it never leaves the beach unless it's blowing 20+, and then it's because I'm sailling it, not them.

Yesterday I took my 14 yr. old daughter out on my Blade for a couple hours, but that was only because her 14yr. old girlfriend wanted to go out, and they both trapped, but when I offered to set up the 14 for them, no luck.

The girlfriend's dad has 2 Sunfish, she's never been out on them. Her dad races against her 16yr. old brother but only here on our lake, never been to a real regatta. I've had him out on my Blade and tried to talk him into buying a cat, but he won't write a $16,000 check when he's got two $500 Sunfish to play with...

That's a lot of money...

BTW, they live in a $750,000 house on the lake and he drives a BMW, his wife's got a Lexus. If he won't write the check, who are you going to sell a $16,000 Kiddie Cat to??

BTW, Mark, you had better notify Brett Goodall that he doesn't like racing with his Dad, they are not doing too well in the F18 worlds after all...

Psych!

Hey Pete, can you find that Tampa Bay news program video of Matt and Zach Lynch sailing their Viper together? I've looked all over but can't find it.

That's how you sell a $16,000

toy

.

What you make doesn't necessarily determine what you buy for toys, it just establishes how dedicated you are to wanting the toy. I'm dirt butt poor most of the time, but do what I can keep a boat under me.

Speaking of which, I gotta get back to my corner......

Karl, how many kids do you have?

Would you buy one of your kids a $16,000 sailboat?

Did your dad buy you a $16,000...anything?

That is my point.

Here you go.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/sports/fish_n_chip/father-son-racing-team-makes-waves-06042010

Thanks Pete.

My aim in this discussion is stricktly from a Marketing viewpoint.

How are you (Mr. Viper

Junior

Dealer) going to

Sell

the boat, to the Clubs and parents?

Give me your best

Pitch

Mark, or anyone else. Because If I can't sail the boat, at $16,000, nobody in my family's getting one!

And that would hold true even if there were 1,000 yacht clubs that already had fleets of them up and running, of which there are....zero.

Dad's got to write that check, you had better have a product Dad can sail too!

That's the sell; Dad and the Kids, together, having good times!

Put a

No Dad's allowed

sticker on it and good luck selling ANY of them!

how much do the horses cost?

Mind you, the rumour has it the club is noticeably below 16.000.

I guess it is just as with motor cross, those things are't cheap as well and dear child wants something proper where Dad wants something affordable. Somewhere those two limits have to meet and that means you can't fully satisfy both.

Wouter

In Timbo's case nothing more needs to be said. Tim, you gave me a chuckle with your

If I can't use it we ain't getting it

speech.

Here's the pitch the Tim: Get a Viper Club because you'll never have to scoop the poop!

I've got the Blade equivelant, so I'm good. The horses over the past 15 years have probably cost me as much as a brand new Gunboat 62 for sure, but then I also rode them, my wife rides them, my two other kids rode once in a while.

At one time all 6 of us rode, but now, not so much. I hate to go near them, as all I see is $$$$ flying out of my wallet every time I go to our barn, which BTW, cost me $42,000 to have built...then there is the $17,000 trailer being pulled by the $35,000 truck...

Don't make me add it all up, I'll kill myself.

So, how many of you DAD's out there are going to buy your kid a $10,000 to $16,000... or what ever,

Toy

, if YOU can't also play with it??

Timbo, all this blathering! You must not have looked at the website!
VIPER Club
Why should I waste a pitch on you when you are definitely not in the market! If I had a product called Horsefly Be-Gone! you'd listen right? Haha. I do like your points though.

How can you not sail the boat? Put the Club sails or the regular sails on and the boat still performs.

I was out in about 7 knots with a junior and I was impressed. We were able to beat the other F16s at the club here at West River with the Club sails and we weighed 300 lbs. The SA is taken out of the square top and the sail is a bit flatter. The kite is flatter and 9% smaller, and we used it on a reach very effectively.

You could always just put the regular set of sails on and there's your boat, Tim, singlehanded or double. And if you singlehand in a breeze with the Club mainsail.......fast for sure! It could actually close the gap between the single/double in the breeze. This is exactly what is so attractive about the F16; it is so versatile. singlehand/double/junior/mixed/female/males....every combo possible.

So to answer your question if you can sail it or not..

Remember, it only weighs 50 lbs more than a club 420, and the 420 is still an eight thousand dollars. $$/mph the VIPER Club blows it away.

Though we are competing against the 420, I don't look at it as direct competition, but more of a cross training, as mentioned earlier. Recruiting colleges look for sailors who have sailed a variety of boats with success. Contrary to popular outlook, cats are very technical boats to sail and demand fast thinking and a lot of tactics, as we all know. I don't really have to go there. The main focus is keeping kids interested in sailing. For me, if there were no cats I would have quit a long time ago, and I still like to sail leaners too. Of course, many yacht clubbers see cats as taking away a piece of their pie, but I think there could be many more slices available in the whole pie.

Daggerboards are not an issue. You can't have a true performance cat without them IMO.

To say there are absolutely 'zero' VIPER Clubs around, what is that? At one point there were zero Optis, Zero Lasers and zero Hobie 16s. Why try to kill something before it starts. I just visited my 1st club. Thanks for that one buddy.

Check the FAQ page out on the site to help. Any suggestions are helpful. Well, maybe not 'any'