I think the advantage of having enough hands to trim downhaul, jib, main, spi and helm is an advantage in all conditions. The difference is just more pronounced in stronger winds.
At least to me the really light up wind is more difficult for cat rigged boat because you have to be really forward on the boat and you must choose if you look up almost backwards (trim the sail and see the tell tales) or forward (to look where you are going and what's happening around you). Things get easier when there is more wind because then it's easier to trim the main based on flying the hull without looking it and concencrate on what's happening around you. For two man boat it's easier, the skipper can see the jib and drive based on that while looking forward and the crew can handle the main. Things are bit different when going down wind, generally the two man boat can always trim two sails at the same time, but there is definetely some times in lighter winds when the uni F16 is a rocket at least when comparing to the F18's which are the only cat's that I've sailed against.
It seems to me that making the jib smaller would solve the problem. It wouldn't affect the 1-Up boats at all (because they can't use the jib,) and it would slow down the 2-Up boats. The whole point of the jib in the class, as I see it, is to give a 2-up boat enough extra thrust to counter the extra weight. So if the jib is adding too much extra thrust, then reduce its size.
not sure I like depowering the two up boats. I sail HEAVY two up.
Y'all just need to man up. Sure there's conditions that I wouldn't go out singlehanded that I would two up, but for the most part I'm happy with how I stack up singlehanded against the two up boats. Its not easy, but I've done well singlehanded. I'd also say I finish more constantly singlehanded
Y'all just need to man up. Sure there's conditions that I wouldn't go out singlehanded that I would two up, but for the most part I'm happy with how I stack up singlehanded against the two up boats. Its not easy, but I've done well singlehanded. I'd also say I finish more constantly singlehanded
Sailing heavy dual handed is probably pushing the weight envelope a little too far for a F16 boat, then you state that you do better more consistantly single handed, isn't that sort of supporting the argument that you may just need a bigger boat when dual handing..
Those in the heavier weight catagory as a solo can often find with all there sailing gear they are up around 100kgs often racing against a dual pair of 120kgs all up, with all the extra drive of the sail area, but then this is not unique in a lot of sport, where ones physique has far more impact than we would expect
Manning up
is not going to help I'm afraid, the difference between the boats is just too wide at the moment. It would be an interesting experiment for the class to allow an open sail plan for the single handers up to the dual limits, for a few years just to see what the impact would be, nothing gained nothing lost to at least try it out.
Two up, my favorite crew weight has been 385 lbs. You lose a bit in the light air, but you're untouchable in heavy stuff.
Manning up is what you need to do. The absolute best I've ever sailed I was fresh off my pseudo divorce, and pissed off as kiss. I was angry, and whooping butt. Not super stiff competition, but not a case of beating up on a pile of slackers either.
Single handing is hard, and there's less room for error. all I see here is whining, and crying about things not being fair. Build a boat inside the rules that you think'll do it, and maybe I'll be interested in buying one. I've been kicking around getting into boat building for a while, but I've got enough on my plate as is.
Karl,
at this point I think it is an objective fact that the uni is disadvantaged when racing with the doublehanders. Trying to stick labels saying
whining
,
crying
,
man up
etc on those who dont agree with you undermines what arguments you have.
Okay. Fair enough. But I do think people like finding excuses for their ability to suck.
While I do agree there is an disadvantage hands wise, I don't think there is a disadvantage boat wise. Sure some things could be optimized a bit better with a purpose built singlehander, but you'd still be short that extra set of hands, and eyes. And, you'd probably end up with a boat that would suck balls with two people on it, or not even be able to handle having two people on it. Which is fine if you're okay with having big money stuck into two boats.
You either dissolve the F16 thing and start new, (not a fan of this option), or you work a bit harder to make up for that lack of someone to talk to. Maybe I'm an anomaly, but everything pretty much averages out for me where I finish in the two configurations.
Maybe next year I'll do F16 Nationals singlehanded and see what happens. That second set of eyes is why I typically do big events two up. You are blind when you are on the wire going downwind. I don't need a high speed collision to ruin my week, or worse someone else's.
Karl
Not sure those on this forum are lacking in ability nor
whining
because they are not winning, not sure where you bought that into the frame.
It would be interesting for you to try a comp as a single hander, as I would suspect you may be a little further down the order than what you would hope and by the way you say the boats are more equal than others are saying, don't blame the boat. Next year put into action what you are saying. I await the results.
I race singlehanded quite a bit. Just never done a big one singlehanded.
I currently have a Hobie16 but I wanted to add my thoughts on this subject, as I am researching what boat I would like to get next. Honestly I think the H16 is dated technology, nothing wrong with it, but I would like to get into a more modern platform for racing, etc.
My choice will be about flexibility. Often I can't find a lightweight crew (lady) for racing so I don't go, as single handed H16's are not allowed. I'd like to have some of my heavier friends (guys) crew for me, but why bother, as the combo would be to heavy and we'd be uncompetitive.
So its down to F18 (flexible for heavier crews with different sail and weight choices) or the F16 where I can plan on going to a race even if I can't find a crew.
For me its about being able to race, simply put. The less classes the better, don't mess with that part of it. If you separate the classes into two, then you get rid of the main appeal of the F16 to me as a consumer, being able to race both configurations. If that is going to be the case, then I'll change my choices to A-cat or F18.
If you separate into two classes, then it won't be long until there are F16 2-up regatta's only, or regatta's where there are not enough solo's to have a class, etc.
It would be better to tweak with the specs of the boat to ensure equality with the two configurations. I agree with the poster who said the boat's now been out long enough that perhaps some tweaking is needed.
Guys and Gals, this thread was all about boats, in particular 16ft boats and how to help their performance as a single hander.
Please if you want to discuss possible rule changes, discuss peoples lack of performance, or any other thing, other than 16ft boats and how to help their performance as a single hander, then do it in another thread. <img src="<>/mad.gif" alt="mad" title="mad" height="15" width="15" />
Please if you want to discuss possible rule changes, discuss peoples lack of performance, or any other thing, other than 16ft boats and how to help their performance as a single hander, then do it in another thread. <img src="<>/mad.gif" alt="mad" title="mad" height="15" width="15" />
Wayne,
I'm sure you meant that response to the general audience and not to coralreefer on his first post to the forum....right?
Coral,
Welcome to the F16 forum! You'll find lots of varying opinions and sometimes
emotion
on certain topics ... but overall a great bunch of people who share a common passion ... sailing.
If you have any questions on the platform, there are plenty of sailors here in FL that sail both two-up and one-up. timbo and pgp generally are always one up ... seth, jody and me usually have crew but also race 1-up (although I've had a pretty steady skipper for the last year or so).
As Wayne says, if you have some questions feel free to create another thread.
T.
I'm sure you meant that response to the general audience and not to coralreefer on his first post to the forum....right?.
Correct no ref to Coralreefer, nice to see the general philosophy of the class, that of a general racing all rounder for both Uni and light weight duals, is still current.
Now can we get back to boat design please.
Coralreefer, the flexability of being able to go one up or two up is what brought me to the F16 class. Racing Uni will never be
Equal
to racing two up, for all the reasons mentioned in this thread, but I like the challenge of doing it alone.
Like you mentioned in your post, if you are -always- going to be racing one up, get an A cat. If you are -always- going to have crew, either get an F18 or F16 if you and your crew are on the lighter side, and race it two up...but at least with the F16, if your crew gets hurt or is a no-show, you can still race.
I've often wondered why the Hobie 16 class doesn't allow racing solo. It's so easy on a non-spinnaker boat, I would think they would welcome the additional boats to their fleet.
Why not just let the 1 ups race with the jib. Yes lighter, yes not as many hands. Comes about even. But the rule should be you have to sail the entire regatta in the same configuration.
The H16 is a pig to right.
Then don't flip it over!
You know I've never seen an H16 with footstraps at the back for those screaming reaches, I wonder why not? I'm going to put some on my Hobie 14, just to keep my butt at the back when I'm going downhill in big breeze. That aluminum rack gets very slippery, even with the grip strips.
You just need to eat more grits yankee boy.
I never had any problem righting a H16 and it's a hell of a lot easier to climb back on one. My F16 has tried to drown me a few times.
By yourself? I couldn't do it, but I'm borderline with the Viper.
So have we come up with a list of desirable singlehanded boat qualities that fall within the current rules set yet?
For the moment can we forget about the current rule set and just propose a design for a good 16ft single hander, once we establish what are desirables then we can work backwards to how those desirables can integrate into the F16 rule set.
Something which is totally heresy to the class is weight, perhaps we need to be increasing the weight of the single hander to perhaps 125kgs or even more, hull shapes ( water drag ) don't seem to mind the extra weight, we would get a much more pitch resistance shape and suddenly the SCHRS handicap would reduce down to a point where the solo could be competitive.
Its not my ideal as I'm a weight weeny when building stuff but having now sailed a much heavier boat with a modern rig set up, I have to say I was quite impressed on just how it just trucked on through everything and rather than quick bursts of speed, just maintained a very high average speed. It was not a thrilling boat to sail mind you in comparison to the hotrods we sail.
On the other hand...is there any beach cat that can keep up with a good sailor on an A cat going upwind? Do the A Cat builders look for heavier or lighter boats?
So...wouldn't a 16' A cat, with a spin added, be a good 16' single hander for the purpose of this discussion?
As I have stated earlier in this thread, a shortened DNA would be almost the perfect single hander in my view. Not sure it would even need the front beam moving if a jib wasn't planned on being used.May need to move the C boards futher foward to allow for the spinny. Build it of glass and some carbon to bring it up to weight, job done, extra sales for DNA and a new toy enters the fray, dedicated as a single hander.
I think the SCHRS handicap calculator may have other views but then I guess we as solos are always on a loser there, so whats new.
Until someone builds a boat within the current rule set optimised for single handers I dont think you can assume that you wont be competitive.
By the way there are 2 very well sailed blades here in Australia that routinely beat sloops across the line and win races.
Maybe you should have a talk to those guys about bringing a one up f16 up to speed.
Starting with a boat that doesn't measure just to try stuff out and then working backwards to fit the rule, makes no sense to me.
The scientific way to do it would be, start with a boat that measures, change one thing at a time within the rules. Keep what works change what doesn't. Extra speed probably lies in setting up you boat to suit you and keeping things really simple.
And it wouldn't hurt to not think about stuff too much and have some fun.
I wonder how much money would be saved by building a 16' DNA out of glass, vs. the present 18' carbon hulls, and then using aluminum beams and mast, vs. paying for all the carbon stuff on the DNA.
I agree with Adio, more time spent out practicing will make you faster than trying to build a tweeked out uni boat.
In the end, you still have to sail it right, no matter what you build, and no specialtiy build is going to give you two extra hands when you really need them!
Screw that. Go full on Carbon. No reason to add weight, or take away strength and stiffness.
I think the DNA would be too fine a hull, but... Might work well. The question is would it hold up to the added loads of more sail area, and a spinnaker?
You're changing your name from Squidpig to Flying Turd Man?
I read somewhere carbon is brittle, see the AC72 thread maybe.
I agree with Adio, more time spent out practicing will make you faster than trying to build a tweeked out uni boat.
In the end, you still have to sail it right, no matter what you build, and no specialtiy build is going to give you two extra hands when you really need them!
Making the mast in Ali is probably the wrong way to go, the A class have developed rigs and masts that are way ahead of ours at present, far better to just use that knowledge and leap frog the development time.
I think Wouter has put on this forum a number of times, calculations that put Ali on a par with Carbon as a beam, yes it won't be as light in weight, but in robustness and cost effectiveness to get similar bending moments,then a properly engineered Ali beam is fine.
As for Carbon in hulls, yes it will give a very low weight to strength ratio, but we probably have a 5kg weight per hull to find to bring the boat up to around 100kgs, why not just beef up the hulls to such an exent that they become really tough and long lasting. All to often I have punched a hole right through my A Class hulls ( all carbon )in launching and handling errors ( twice I have put the tip of my trapeze hook through on getting back on board after a capsize ) where if they had been made in more durable glass, would that have happened.
Do agree that practice and yet more practice will always give better performance gains than any boat upgrade.
you uni folk, where do you see the greatest disparity? Straight line speed or the transitions (tack/gybe, spin set/retrieval)?
I suspect the extra pair of hands plays a far greater role in overall performance than the additional weight.
It's not in straight line speed that they Uni is at a disadvantage, unless it's really blowing. It's at the spinnaker launch at A mark and even worse at the snuffing. There's a whole lot to be done there, quickly, and only 1 extra hand (if one is holding the tiller) to get it all done. If anything goes wrong, (spin halyard snags, etc.) you are screwed.
Kind of like a one legged man in an butt kicking contest!