The class is going to have to either accept that the Unis are going to wither away until Uni sailing is just for recreational sailing or accept that there will be a sub division of slower boats with all the inherent problems at competitions.
That slower boat thingee is so against the original design brief of allowing all, either dual or solo to compete equally, that perhaps it maybe time to tweak the rules a bit to see where things go.
The F16 future itself, looks bright and is growing fast within Europe and America as far as a dual handed boat goes.
As far as a uni boat goes, until we can run a jib, then its always going to compete with the A's and the Shadows which have strong fleets. If we run a jib ( I guess a 2.5 metre blade jib ) then we will be different and more like the dual handed boats with all the benefits of getting the RM lower in the boat. My thoughts are we are going to end up with a 13.5 m main, 2.5 blade jib and 15m spinny, almost the exact sail sizes of the original Stealth back in 2001. When I first started sailing at Datchet all the single handers had these boats and they all loved them to bits.
Wayne,
could you do a comparison between handling the Musto Skiff (which is single handed with main and spi) and the F 16 Uni?
How many uni sailors bitch about things being unfair? I guess I really haven't paid much attention, but I don't think its much.
Few if any, it is what it is. Timbo led a minor insurrection a couple of years back but it was settled...something to do with rum.
Yes we race against them all the time, they are very very difficult to race well but when the skill of the sailor becomes good enough to control the razor edge they sail on, they are incrediably fast. Upwind in up to 12 knots they really are on even territory, downwind they also have a sweet spot where they are very very difficult to pass in true racing style. Enough that at my club where we regularly race against 5 - 6 boats, if you are not ahead at the start you will be almost certainly be still there at the finish, the skill and tactics playing a much bigger part than actual boat performance. Very very impressive skiff and some of the best sailors out there.
Their sailing skill is so much better than mine that its hard to compare like for like, they practice and practice and I think we have a number of top ten sailors in the world at our club, so they are very very good.
Their setup is pretty similar to ours without a rotating mast, 13.5m main, 14 m spinny which they seem to be able to get their spinnys up in a quarter of the time it takes me and they are more manouverable at 75kgs all up, for me they are just a big problem with a capital P if we all start on the same start.
On PY handicap they are 860 approx, I'm on 680 so a no brainer who is going to win on handicap and that is one of the big debates about Uni catamarans.
I don't know about the Uni racers on your side of the pond Wayne, but here in the States, I've never heard a single Uni sailor complain about it, or think it's 'unfair' or such.
We know we have to work harder than the two up crews, but we also like to race side by side with them, and when we beat them (and we do, once in a while) it's not because we were
light
.
There is -no- advantage to racing Uni, even in light air, the jib on the sloop helps much more than the extra crew weight hurts, unless your crew is a 200lb. dude, in which case you should both be on an Inter 20.
We started this class to be able to race two up vs. uni, as equals. I don't hear any Uni guys (over here) crying for a change. What we did at our Nationals a few years ago was, we Uni guys pitched in for a bottle of Rum, for the top placing Uni. Fair enough for us.
Now, that said, I also wouldn't mind seeing a
Uni Only
regatta or training camp, if we could get enough boats to show up (10 or so) to make it worth while, for no other reason than to discus techniques and see what works best when racing Uni.
Do you think we have enough interest to split the fleets at a major regatta, like Nationals or Euro's? You said you had 42 boats at the Euro's, That's a great turnout. But if it had been advertised as a two fleet regatta, ie. Sloops get one start, Uni's another, with separate trophys, etc. would there have been more people inclined to race Uni?
What I think is, the Uni guys know they are at a disadvantage, so for a major regatta, they are going to find good, light crew and race two up.
BUT...if they had the option of racing in a separate Uni fleet, more guys might be inclined to race Uni, as it would be more 'fair' for them to compete equally.
I would love to see Chris Field on an AquaRaptor some time to show what he can do. Ofcourse with some days of practice on before hand.
Still think apwind a good uni sailor (familiar with A cat) will be faster than 2 up sailors in a lot of conditions as they are just better upwind sailors. Question is, is it enough for the extra time need to hoist.
Gill
We don't tend to bitch about whether we deem it unfair or not, I race for the fun more than the competitiveness, what I think we are getting at is that in the first F16 comp I went to there were more unis than sloop. Now it is rare to even see a uni at a comp. Would I go along to a comp knowing I was the only solo, probably not.
Yeah, I hear you, I'll still go Uni if it's local, but I won't drive hundreds of miles and spend $1,000 to get my butt kicked by 20 sloops because it started blowing 20 and I couldn't keep up.
That's why I said maybe we are reacing the point where at BIG regattas, with BIG turnouts, we could discus ahead of time, having two fleets, see how much interest there is.
If there are enough people intereseted in racing Uni, knowing there will be a separate class for them, they might leave their crew at home and have a go, Mano a Mano, so to speak.
There are a number of problems with trying to compete as equals within our class rules and as far as they stand at the moment, then there is probably no chance of returning to equal status of Uni and Dual, despite the best efforts of the guys who originally set the rules up ( which they did as best as they knew at the time ).
Do we simply admit defeat and just accept that F16 comps in the future are going to be dual only crews ? The downside to that is not everyone can get crews, all of the time. You eliminate a proportion of prospective class owners straight off. The upside is that class rules can be harmonised with the likes of the F18's and simply be considered as a youth, ladies and light weights feeder to Olympic F17 and F18 classes.
Is it time the Uni's set up a proper spinny boat class in their own right, a semi development A Class perhaps? It would be a shame as we have gone so far in such a short time but it maybe the only way to deal with the problems within our own rules and the present handicap issues being raised of the lighter weight Uni boats.
I think it is time I chimed in on this because I have a lot of
t-shirts
on these uni issues.
Fairness: Once the wind goes over 6kts, the 2-up config has the advantage. 6kts and below they are even with a slight advantage to the uni.
Weed Control: Advantage is huge for the 2-up.
I see it is finally being hashed out on the possibility of a uni-only class breakout. It is not defeat but a full realization of what is the reality of the situation. By offering 2 classes competing against like setups, IMO, you may increase attendance. If the crew situation flopped, you still can race with the other uni boats. I would not like going to a regatta as a uni knowing I will not trophy. By separating, sailors looking for a new class (like me!) will see the F16 class as a more viable option. Again, that is just my opinion. Like Wayne said, kudos to the original group.
Bob <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />
Do we simply admit defeat and just accept that F16 comps in the future are going to be dual only crews ? The downside to that is not everyone can get crews, all of the time. You eliminate a proportion of prospective class owners straight off. The upside is that class rules can be harmonised with the likes of the F18's and simply be considered as a youth, ladies and light weights feeder to Olympic F17 and F18 classes.
Is it time the Uni's set up a proper spinny boat class in their own right, a semi development A Class perhaps? It would be a shame as we have gone so far in such a short time but it maybe the only way to deal with the problems within our own rules and the present handicap issues being raised of the lighter weight Uni boats.
Nope. We don't have enough Uni's over here to have a consistant showing at anything other than a Major regatta, ie. Nationals or Tradewinds. We set the rule
Uni/Sloop race as equal
for Flexablitly. I don't want to change that. There are some times I have crew, sometimes I don't. But if I ALWAYS have to have crew to race in the F16 class, I'll sell it and get an A cat, and leave my kids at home alone...on Facebook.
We are already
Harmonized
with the F18's, not that that is an issue. At Tradewinds last January they very successfully used the F16's for the Junior Olympic gig. I was there, I don't think there was anyone racing Uni, but nobody was bitching about it either.
I do not want to lose the flexability of being able to race Uni in a mostly Sloop fleet. If we have about 10+ Uni's show up, we could as a group, discuss it and have a vote, decided if we want a separate start, and see if the RC will give it to us, or just race with the sloops and give out our own Top Uni prize, ie. a bottle of something tasty.
The Uni Only thing has only worked in the A cats and Waves, and never caught on with the Nacra F17. I think the lack of flexability to run either Uni or Sloop, is what killed it. What made the F16 class grow rapidly is the FLEXABILITY to run in either configuration. Right now, there is no outcry from any Uni guys, and I'm one of them, to
Fix
anything.
It's NOT broke!
Leave it alone.
No matter how smart you rig your boat, I dont think there are any technical ways to offset the uni disadvantage.
Some things that might work IMHO:
-Select major venues based on light winds.
-Excempt uni sailors from paying entry fees.
-Have a separate trophy for uni's.
-Reduce the number of laps to two per race, but maybe have longer legs
-Let uni's start 5 min earlier.
-Find crew
-Practice
-Practice some more
-Buy an A-cat <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />
OR...let the Uni's run their Jibs if they want to.
And for Bob Curry, buy an F16 and increase our Uni Racer numbers. We need to get 'critical Uni mass' to get a separate start.
But, I would prefer to have a Sloop/Uni combined start, then hand out separate trophys for Uni's.
Do we simply admit defeat and just accept that F16 comps in the future are going to be dual only crews ? The downside to that is not everyone can get crews, all of the time. You eliminate a proportion of prospective class owners straight off. The upside is that class rules can be harmonised with the likes of the F18's and simply be considered as a youth, ladies and light weights feeder to Olympic F17 and F18 classes.
Is it time the Uni's set up a proper spinny boat class in their own right, a semi development A Class perhaps? It would be a shame as we have gone so far in such a short time but it maybe the only way to deal with the problems within our own rules and the present handicap issues being raised of the lighter weight Uni boats.
Yes.
The local club races can still be done level if they want but the reality is these are 2 separate classes.
I understand how any discussion on change is a very tender subject. There is both an emotional and real investment in money and time here so I am trying to be respectful on this topic.
Wayne mentioned a reduced size blade jib for uni sailors. This will make tacks a bit easier for uni sailors. Perhaps also help with speed upwind but add complexity. It will not help with mark roundings but perhaps allow uni sailplans to be more equal with two up when the wind increases becouse of lower point of effort?
Tony, I can not wait to get on the water and train hard again <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
I think the poll is pretty now established where the final outcome will be, that as things stand, the Uni's are disadvantaged contrary to F16 class rules and the likes of SCHRS handicaps.
Now human nature being what it is, we all want to win, whether we admit to that or not, after all we are attending a competition and being a competition, we really want to win if we can.
Is the F16 ideal
broke
I don't think so, the whole concept of the class still stands, that of putting solo against dual, that of being a class for lighter weight all up crew weights. Its not the concept giving problems, its the modern day interpretation.
When the class was established a 5 metre length of boat would only have x speed, constrained by water length and RM dipping the hulls causing water drag. Hence the original calculations predicting that by simply dropping the jib would equalise the additional weight of the crew.
12 years on sail technology and hull design has changed those parameters and the original calculations are no longer valid. Perhaps Wouter should have a rerun on the calculator with what we know today and give us some views <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
I'd definitely like to see Bob Curry on a F16. Top ranked sailors are one thing the Unis have always been short of.
I am interested in the F16 class for just that very flexibility we are discussing. I can show to an event (local, regional, etc) and sail if I want to under either configuration.
Only have one day and no crew for a sail? I'll be sailing
Light air or crew plans fell through? I'll be sailing
Medium air with or without crew? I'll be sailing
Heavy air & crew available (either planned crew or pick up another uni skipper)? I'm sailing
Sure, if it's a big event (nationals, etc) I'd plan ahead and train up with crew for a 2-up showing, but anything else (besides a distance race where 2-up increases safety factor) I have flexibility to get out and SAIL, which will almost always improve my skillset even if I don't walk out with a pickle dish (I prefer brag flags, but whatever)
And Tim - the concept of an
in-house recognition
of the fastest uni sailor in a combined fleet makes more sense than trying to put a sub-handicap system in place. Don't give the RC/PRO any more work than absolutely necessary...
Well that's exactly why I got into the F16 class in the first place Jay, and I don't see a problem so...
Exactly what are we trying to
Fix
anyway?
Maybe all we really need to do is to add 3 trophies at major regattas, for the top 3 Uni's?
Simple enough? There! Problem Fixed.
Now, can we talk about adding wing masts and foiling L boards please??
;^)
(that's a joke, just in case anyone thought I was serious)
I thought your rum solution was spot on.
Timbo, you may not be too worried that you won't win at a competition, but I can assure you there are plenty who would be.
Let me ask a basic question to you, if you were in front by 50 yards of the fleet at the first mark, would you try and prevent the other 20 duals from passing you on the next leg ?
Of course I would, but if we were racing in two different fleets, ie. a Sloop fleet and a Uni fleet, and I'm Uni, and they are sloops, I wouldn't get too upset about it.
Here's a better example:
I'm in first place at A mark, I hold a small lead downwind, but then at the C gate, there are 4 of us coming in fast, me and 3 sloops all closing in on each other. But while I'm snuffing and downhauling and mast rotating, and putting the boards down and...oh yeah, steering and trimming and trapping, they all pass me.
Now I have to chase them upwind, maybe I get a lucky shift, catch a couple, hold my place downwind, and at the gate the same thing happens again, getting passed by the guys who have a crew to snuff.
I usually lose boats at the snuff.
And that is exactly my point, if the solos are faster upwind by say 50 - 100 metres each upwind leg, then we get good exciting fair racing between both solos and duals. What we loose in raising and snuffing the spinny, we gain on the next upwind leg.
The upside is that we have one startline of good numbers, a choice of whether one wants to solo or dual, and one winner, that to me was what the class ideals were right from the start.
We have good excting racing every time we go out, regardless of what shows up, Uni or Sloop. Some people can't handle the fact that a good Uni sailor is going to beat a poor Sloop team, and vice versa, so they place the
Blame
for a poor result on their configuration.
In the end I think it still comes down to who's driving (and/or crewing), no matter the configuration.
To have a real 'test' of boat configuration, I think you would have to get 10 identical boats, rig 5 as Uni, 5 as sloop, then get the top 10 skipper/crews in the world, and then race them side by side, rotating boats after each race, etc. Like the Alter Cup used to be, but with a mix of 5 Uni and 5 Sloops.
At the end of the regatta, if every sloop beat every Uni, in every race, then we could say the Uni is definately slower, but until we have that kind of proof, I think it still comes down to who is sailing it.
I'm not going to worry about it, I go out to have fun. It stops being fun when people start crying about how they got beaten by a configuration, vs. sailing technique.
Look at any A cat or F18 race. There are guys who finish way out front, and guys who are last. You can't blame the Uni/sloop for that. There is no way all boats are going to start and finish together, side by side. The difference between the starting line and finish possition is part luck (wind shifts) but mostly skill.
Now, if we have enough interest, perhaps we could run a Uni only regatta or training event, as I mentioned earlier.
Timbo you are pretty right in what you say, the best skipper will win regardless of the barge he / she is sailing. I can spend 1 1/2 hours trying to pass 4 Mustoo skiffs that have got the best start, these guys are top ten in the world and I'm probably bottom ten, tactics and knowledge often far surpass the power and speed of the boat.
This thread for me was an academic excercise to just confirm whether I was thinking along the right lines, the poll seems to confirm that there is quite a differnce in racing speeds between the solos and duals.
How the class deals with that can only be by class members approval, as my boat no longer truely conforms to F16 rules and I feel it is a better boat to play with than a production boat set up for dual crew, then I guess it will have to be without me.
Its also a bit academic in a way as the 5 year rule ( class rules can only be changed every 5 years ) will prevent any quick changes.
I don't see it so much as a difference in boat speed, I see it as a difference in ability.
As Pete pointed out earlier, there has not yet been an Olympic caliber skipper consistantly sailing F16's Uni, to give us a true comparison on the race course, to the Olympic caliber skipper/crews we see sailing the Sloops.
I like the freedom of not having to worry about finding crew. If I can get good crew for a regatta, great, but I also like the challenge of racing Uni, and knowing I've got nobody to blame but me, if I'm slow.
I only got into racing to improve my sailing skills, I'd like to be cruising to Tahitti on a big cat with a margarita in my hand, but I don't see that happening any time soon.
A light, fast, two up or Uni boat is about all I can afford now, so I'm good with the challenge and learning that comes with racing Uni, even if it's mostly against sloops.
... I've got nobody to blame but me, if I'm slow.
I blame Kris, she has Terry focused and now I don't have anyone to beat.
She's gittin' tough. You may be in for a surprise...
She's gettin' tough...?
Damn, I liked her when she was soft and squishy.
;^)
Last time out, we were bow to stern downwind, Terry distracted me and she drove over the top of me. She had that look in her eye. She's definitely developed a taste for blood.
Saright though, we need more grlz, specially drivers.