Starting this one off-
1) Lack of an organized racing/event schedule (at least in the US)
Current rule set does allow for someone to build a very expensive boat from exotic materials that would be quicker than current F16s on the market.
Fleets are very small and in isolated pockets. Boats are predominantly manufactured either by home builders or small local manufactures with the exception of AHPC. Fleets are generally made up of the local manufacturer’s product.
Dealer access outside of north west Europe
Fleets are very small and in isolated pockets. Boats are predominantly manufactured either by home builders or small local manufactures with the exception of AHPC. Fleets are generally made up of the local manufacturer’s product.
Why are there not the same
uber boats
in the A class fleet? Their rules are similr in what they control?
Have you seen the price of A cats...... And they carry a lot less hardware!!!!
Perhaps they are all
uber boats
Perhaps they are all
uber boats
How so?
A class has a slightly longer mast
Single handed F16 has the following extra
1, Additional sail (spi)
2, Blocks and deck; beam mast fittings for spi
3, Spi pole
Not a massive difference!
So, if you are saying that there isn't much difference in the fitout etc then why is an A cat so much more expensive than an F16?
Are all these A cat guys getting ripped off?? are the A cat builders charging too much??
Maybe the F16 builders should start building A cats for the same price as their F16 (even less because there is less equipment..)
Macca, how much is NACRA paying you to attack the F16 class?
The rules are less restrictive - length, width, sail area, min weight, and min tip separation on boards when down. There's plenty of experimentation goes on. The cost of Ben Hall's solid wing boat at the Worlds before last would have been pretty high. You can also buy a certain German boat for around 50% more than most others.
The boats are expensive but it gets down to the favourite topics of this forum - weight and stiffness. When you are down to 75kg for a complete 18 foot boat it costs in materials and skilled labour. It doesn't seem to be an impediment though - numbers are booming worldwide and the quota of 100 at this month's Worlds in Italy has been heavily over-subscribed - go figure in a GFC <img src="<>/confused.gif" alt="confused" title="confused" height="15" width="15" />
Cheers
Wow, that got sidelined quick.
I think the biggest weakness, is also a weakness for all of the U.S. class's at the moment. Not enough people participating in the sport. The F16 is the newest of what I think of as the serious classes: H16, A-class, F18, F16 and sits in a some what precarious position. Things are going well and what would seriously hurt other classes, would probably kill off the F16. On the flip side, the F16 came to light in a rather rough time for cat sailing, and has managed to flourish despite numbers being so low as a whole for the sport.
Because our formula rule do a much better job of keeping cost under control.
The A-cat rule set is alot more open then ours and the rules that they do have are alot more challenging to meet. A spinnaker package and a few extra blocks don't weight 30 kg for example. There is a major difference between a 75 kg A-cat and a 100 kg F16 (without the spi package). Although not so much in performance apparently. Come to think of it the Viper had a right killing in that All-carbon SMOD F20 class lately. Seems we were right all along. Using carbon fibre and other hot stuff isn't really all that it is hyped up to be.
Plain and simple.
Good point Ace !
Wouter
Because our formula rule do a much better job of keeping cost under control.
The A-cat rule set is alot more open then ours and the rules that they do have are alot more challenging to meet. A spinnaker package and a few extra blocks don't weight 30 kg for example. There is a major difference between a 75 kg A-cat and a 100 kg F16 (without the spi package). Although not so much in performance apparently. Come to think of it the Viper had a right killing in that All-carbon SMOD F20 class lately. Seems we were right all along. Using carbon fibre and other hot stuff isn't really all that it is hyped up to be.
Plain and simple.
A Class and F16 have essentially the same rule set:-
unlimited use of carbon
no restriction on core
carbon masts
carbon beams
carbon foils and rudder boxes
these are the main drivers of cost
The F16 requires extra strength in the platform compared to the A class due to the loads of a jib and spi, plus the F16 is required to carry 2 crew and added to the extra volume required to carry the additional sails the hulls are much larger as well as the beams, this accounts for a large part of the weight difference.
add in the self tacker, carbon spi pole, chute and hardware for jib and spi (don't forget the sails) The weight difference isn't so great by now...
plain and simple enough?
unlimited use of carbon
no restriction on core
carbon masts
carbon beams
carbon foils and rudder boxes
these are the main drivers of cost
Huh funny, last time I checked a F16 with carbon foils (standard on all F16's), carbon boxes (standard on 50% of F16's), carbon reinforcements in the hull and even a carbon mast was still below 20K and stiffer then the F18's (even when corrected for weight differences between both classes).
So, I guess the other class rules (that the A-class does not share with us) are doing a fine job of controlling the costs.
Wouter
So, again I ask: why is an A cat more expensive than a F16?
Why don't you ask the A cat Builders?
There are at least two of them that frequent this board.
I don't know, I've never built a cat, but my first guess would be, they build fewer of them, by hand, slowly, because it takes more time and effort to get it lighter and keep the strength?
Indeed !
Wouter
Because our formula rule do a much better job of keeping cost under control.
The A-cat rule set is alot more open then ours and the rules that they do have are alot more challenging to meet. A spinnaker package and a few extra blocks don't weight 30 kg for example. There is a major difference between a 75 kg A-cat and a 100 kg F16 (without the spi package). Although not so much in performance apparently. Come to think of it the Viper had a right killing in that All-carbon SMOD F20 class lately. Seems we were right all along. Using carbon fibre and other hot stuff isn't really all that it is hyped up to be.
Plain and simple.
A Class and F16 have essentially the same rule set:-
unlimited use of carbon
no restriction on core
carbon masts
carbon beams
carbon foils and rudder boxes
these are the main drivers of cost
The F16 requires extra strength in the platform compared to the A class due to the loads of a jib and spi, plus the F16 is required to carry 2 crew and added to the extra volume required to carry the additional sails the hulls are much larger as well as the beams, this accounts for a large part of the weight difference.
add in the self tacker, carbon spi pole, chute and hardware for jib and spi (don't forget the sails) The weight difference isn't so great by now...
plain and simple enough?
Macca Are you saying you want to compare a single handed A class with a 2 up F16? is that sensible?
nope, but unless you are going to start building F16's that are not capable of carrying 2 persons and a jib, you will need to still build the boat to handle such loads.. and hence the weight and costs
OK. What is the price of a C2 at the moment?
Good question, particularly since an A is slower than a F16.
This a question that I often ask myself, if you take material only costs ( and not the labour ) then I bet there is not £ 1K in extra cost ( mainly the extra cost of the carbon due to its shortage around the world )and I would be surprised at that ( having just built what is effectively an A class )
Nah its a lot more simple than that. People equate quality with price. Max price must mean the best product, after all thats what advertising and marketing tells us so.
You can buy a Subaru WRC that will loose your licence in about 4.5 seconds for about 40K in pounds. A Ferrari which will loose your licence in about 4.6 seconds costs about 120K. Both do the same job, the Subaru probably more complex.
But would people continue to buy a Ferrari if it was offered at 40K, probably not as suddenly it is no longer exclusive and expensive. Equally if A classes were marketed at a lower cost ( as I believe they could easily be ) and suddenly they became much more available, would they hold such esteem and exclusivity as they do now. Not so sure.
<img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" /> come over here and I'll discuss it with you!
http:/
You can buy a Subaru WRC that will loose your licence in about 4.5 seconds for about 40K in pounds. A Ferrari which will loose your licence in about 4.6 seconds costs about 120K. Both do the same job, the Subaru probably more complex.
Even cheaper; my WR1 was 20K and did 60 in 4.25; 100 in 10.9; standing Quarter in 12.9
Remember those James Bond movies where he drives a Subaru?
No?
Neither do I!
<img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
(Comparing a Subaru to a Ferrari, you guys are now seriously losing it!).
![[Linked Image]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ejFL_IpLWgw/R1An2aHPCmI/AAAAAAAABW0/z7BgLDHnumc/s1600-R/Ferrari-599-GTB_Fiorano_manu-08_015.jpg)
waynemarlow hit it right on the head...it's mostly smoke and mirrors...
A good laminator is a good laminator...doesn't matter if he is using $4.50 a yard E-glass, $10.50 yd S2 Glass, $16 yd Kevlar, or $23 yd carbon.
It takes just as much effort to do a tight, properly wet out (resin to fabric ratio) hand layup with E-glass as with carbon...it cost just as much in associated materials (peel ply, bleeder cloth, plastic sheeting, vacuum pump etc…) to vacuum bag E-glass as carbon...a e-glass boat is built out of the same mold as one built of carbon…it takes just as much shop space to build a hull in e-glass as carbon...the pay scale doesn't change if a worker is using e-glass one day and carbon the next...
Workers comp Insurance costs doesn't change, the power bill to keep the lights on doesn't change, and the rent or property tax on the building the boats are built in doesn't change...it’s all BS…it’s all perception like waynemarlow stated above…people pay out the kazoo for something they perceive to be the best…it doesn’t have to be the best…just perceived to be the best…
If you are naive enough to believe that it cost an additional $15k to build the same F16 boat, in the same shop, in the same mold, with the same labor, with only the additional cost of 1K in materials (which I think that is being overly generous, 1 layer of 5.6 carbon inside and out, 50” X 12yds per hull/ 24 yd total @ $23.00/yd = $552.00) then they will be all to happy to take your money and laugh all the way to the bank.
As for “A” cats being so expensive…how many of each model do they make?
They change so often…it’s almost like the flavor of the week at the local Ice cream store, it would probably be much better to build them one off like the LR series….what is the point in making a mold when you will never produce enough boats out of it to recoup the cost?
If it costs $35K for tooling and you only build 10 boats out of it…you have to tack on $3,500 per boat, 25 boats you have to tack on $1,400 per boat, 50 boats $700 per boat…that is before you even get into materials/labor/overhead/profit. How many “A” cats of any particular design have been built in large numbers?
The “A” cat attracts sailors who want cutting edge design, state of the art materials, and have the money to pay for it…there was a need, and a group of builders is filling that need. You keep lamenting that Hobie and NACRA are not involved in the F16 class…well the “A” class doesn’t rise and fall on the participation or lack thereof of the big 2…what makes you think the F16 class will also?
(All retail prices I just pulled off the internet...figure a builder is getting between a 30% to 50% discount on above prices depending on the amount ordered and which distributor he buys from)
Ah but there would be a better than even chance that a Scoobie would beat the Ferrari around the race track, put a little loose dirt down on the road and it would be a no contest <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
As to remembering a certain brand, well that takes money and more money and more money still to instill that brand name to be the most recognised, its called advertising and marketing. What money doesn't guarentee though is that you are buying the best product for the job.
Anyway a Ferrari, thats a pretty bog standard Chelsea kerb crawlers car, nah give me Lamborghini Gallardo any day. <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" />
As to remembering a certain brand, well that takes money and more money and more money still to instill that brand name to be the most recognised, its called advertising and marketing. What money doesn't guarentee though is that you are buying the best product for the job.
Anyway a Ferrari, thats a pretty bog standard Chelsea kerb crawlers car, nah give me Lamborghini Gallardo any day. <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" />
Nah - prefer my 90's Toyota Hilux Ute
A good laminator is a good laminator...doesn't matter if he is using $4.50 a yard E-glass, $10.50 yd S2 Glass, $16 yd Kevlar, or $23 yd carbon.
It takes just as much effort to do a tight, properly wet out (resin to fabric ratio) hand layup with E-glass as with carbon...it cost just as much in associated materials (peel ply, bleeder cloth, plastic sheeting, vacuum pump etc…) to vacuum bag E-glass as carbon...a e-glass boat is built out of the same mold as one built of carbon…it takes just as much shop space to build a hull in e-glass as carbon...the pay scale doesn't change if a worker is using e-glass one day and carbon the next...
Workers comp Insurance costs doesn't change, the power bill to keep the lights on doesn't change, and the rent or property tax on the building the boats are built in doesn't change...it’s all BS…it’s all perception like waynemarlow stated above…people pay out the kazoo for something they perceive to be the best…it doesn’t have to be the best…just perceived to be the best…
If you are naive enough to believe that it cost an additional $15k to build the same F16 boat, in the same shop, in the same mold, with the same labor, with only the additional cost of 1K in materials (which I think that is being overly generous, 1 layer of 5.6 carbon inside and out, 50” X 12yds per hull/ 24 yd total @ $23.00/yd = $552.00) then they will be all to happy to take your money and laugh all the way to the bank.
As for “A” cats being so expensive…how many of each model do they make?
They change so often…it’s almost like the flavor of the week at the local Ice cream store, it would probably be much better to build them one off like the LR series….what is the point in making a mold when you will never produce enough boats out of it to recoup the cost?
If it costs $35K for tooling and you only build 10 boats out of it…you have to tack on $3,500 per boat, 25 boats you have to tack on $1,400 per boat, 50 boats $700 per boat…that is before you even get into materials/labor/overhead/profit. How many “A” cats of any particular design have been built in large numbers?
The “A” cat attracts sailors who want cutting edge design, state of the art materials, and have the money to pay for it…there was a need, and a group of builders is filling that need. You keep lamenting that Hobie and NACRA are not involved in the F16 class…well the “A” class doesn’t rise and fall on the participation or lack thereof of the big 2…what makes you think the F16 class will also?
(All retail prices I just pulled off the internet...figure a builder is getting between a 30% to 50% discount on above prices depending on the amount ordered and which distributor he buys from)
But the F16 rules allow someone to build a boat in prepreg carbon with a nomex core, to do this in the ideal way you would use a carbon mould too.. So I am not talking about building a boat in the same shop with the same workers. I am saying that you can build in a very high quality/tech and you will have a better product.
Add in the carbon mast, beams etc and you are increasing cost greatly.
As for the number of A cats being built, i would wager that there are a lot more A cats being built than f16.
But it could be as you say
smoke and mirrors
only if they are from Nacra. Companies like Bimare or Stealth make you a fair offer.